Mia culpa, it was Stuart Close in "The Genius of Homeopathy" who called sac
lac the second most important remedy.
russell swift, dvm
single dose
-
David Little
- Posts: 407
- Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 11:00 pm
Re: single dose
At 09:58 AM 3/4/2002 +0000, you wrote:
Dear Joy et all,
Can you please supply quotes where Hahnemann says "you can repeat LMs
even if there is no evidence of them working"??? I have never seen such a
discussion. Hahnemann does say, however, that the LMs can be repeated as
long as the patient is improving and there are no aggravations. This he
wrote about this and the quotes are available. This is different than the
4th Organon method where as long as the patient is improving the remedy
should be stopped.
That one may at some point be repeating the LMs *before* they appear to
be working is sometimes done but only for a reasonable amount of time. If
one keeps repeating the WRONG remedy that is NOT working it will cause
accessory symptoms and dissimilar aggravations that change the natural
symptom pattern and may spoil the case. There is ample clinical evidence
that the over repetition of the LM potency can cause harm. The mechanical
daily repetition of the LM potency has caused many unneeded aggravation,
dissimilar aggravation, accessory symptoms, and cause some serious
problems. No homoeopathic remedies can be repeated mindlessly without
causing side-effects. This has given the LMs a bad name in certain circles
because they have seen the messed up cases.
Dear Colleagues,
I have done the LMs for 18 years, and in my first years, I over
repeated the remedies and SLOWED DOWN rather than sped the cure on
occasions. As I read the fine print of the Organon, I realized that
Hahnemann said that the LM potency can only be repeated daily "WHEN
NECESSARY" (FN-APH 246 6th Organon) When it is NOT necessary such a
frequent repetition will cause unneeded aggravations, accessory symptoms,
and slow down the cure. This may spoil the case through over medication.
My review of the Paris casebooks showed that Hahnemann rarely gave the
daily dose and did not repeat the remedy for long periods without giving
the patient a series of placebos and waiting and watching. Dr. Croserio
worked with Hahnemann during his LM years (1840-1843). He wrote Hahnemann
almost never used the daily dose and gave large amounts of placebo. There
are very few cases where I find the daily dose necessary, and when
necessary, it usually is not very long before one needs to slow down the
repetitions because the patient is improving at a good rate.
Hahnemann also clearly writes in 247 that
"During treatment, every noticeably progressive and conspicuously
increasing improvement is a state which, as long as it persist, generally
excludes any repetition of the medicine being used because all the good
being produced by the medicine is still hastening towards completion."
This means that any strikingly progressive amelioration that increases
from day to day is a sign the THE LM POTENCY SHOULD NOT BE REPEATED. I have
witness several single dose LM cures in this fashion, even in chronic
diseases. I simple never had to repeat the remedy because it was NOT
NECESSARY. This also means that any time DURING TREATMENT that there is a
strikingly progressive improvement the remedy should be STOPPED.
Note that in the second paragraph that Hahnemann said that repeating
the dose to speed the cure is used on cases where there is "SLOW,
CONTINUOUS IMPROVEMENT ON ONE DOSE", that may take 50, 60, or 100 days to
complete the cure. Then Hahnemann adds five conditions to speeding the cure
of such cases.
1. the remedy must be a true simillimum.
2. the remedy must be highly potentized and given in the medical solution.
3. the remedy must be given in the smallest possible dose.
4. the remedy must be given at suitable intervals (not mechanically daily).
5, the remedy must be succussed prior to administration.
So in nut shell - any strikingly progressive improvement on a single
dose or at any time in the case is a sign that the remedy should not be
repeated. In those cases where there is only a slowly progressive
improvement the remedy my be repeated to speed the cure. So the LM posology
is the union of the wait and watch method and knowing when to repeat the
remedy to speed the cure, WHEN NECESSARY.
Much of the 6th Organon is being taken out of context and much of the
"fine print" is being completely ignored. What it a great scientific and
artistic method has been changed by some into a mechanistic, mechanical
practice that reminds one of the way allopathic doctors give daily doses.
This state of mind is too be avoided at all cost. The 5th and 6th Organon
upholds the middle path between the rigid single dose and the mechanical
repetition of homeopathic remedies. For this reason, one must know when to
let a single dose, or series of does act without repetition, and when to
continue repeat the dose to speed the cure.
Sincerely, David Little
PS. There is no numeral equivalence between the C and LM potency. The C and
LM potency are complementary opposites when it comes to their medical
actions. This greatly expands the horizons of the homoeopathic pharmacy. I
wrote an article this that just appear in Simillimum magazine. Hahnemann
low potencies were 30c-6c in the descending order. His higher potencies
were the 198c, 199c, 200c and the LM 0/1 to 0/30/ in their ascending order.
Boenninghausen tested the LM potency and wrote that the LM potencies had
the actions of the high and highest C potencies of his day. The action of
the LM 0/1 is much more powerful than a 30c potency although by dilution
the original amount of medicine is similar to a 5c to 6c. This is because
the LM potency has a much larger dilution ratio and 100 succussions per
dilution that magnifies the remedial powers of the LM potency in a
different manner than the C potency.
Lastly, it is my advice to students and colleagues to be careful with
the LM potency and not to over medicate one's patients. Help get the word out.
DL
---------------
"It is the life-force which cures diseases because a dead man needs no more
medicines."
Samuel Hahnemann
Visit our website on Hahnemannian Homoeopathy and Cyberspace Homoeopathic
Academy at
http://www.simillimum.com
David Little © 2000
Dear Joy et all,
Can you please supply quotes where Hahnemann says "you can repeat LMs
even if there is no evidence of them working"??? I have never seen such a
discussion. Hahnemann does say, however, that the LMs can be repeated as
long as the patient is improving and there are no aggravations. This he
wrote about this and the quotes are available. This is different than the
4th Organon method where as long as the patient is improving the remedy
should be stopped.
That one may at some point be repeating the LMs *before* they appear to
be working is sometimes done but only for a reasonable amount of time. If
one keeps repeating the WRONG remedy that is NOT working it will cause
accessory symptoms and dissimilar aggravations that change the natural
symptom pattern and may spoil the case. There is ample clinical evidence
that the over repetition of the LM potency can cause harm. The mechanical
daily repetition of the LM potency has caused many unneeded aggravation,
dissimilar aggravation, accessory symptoms, and cause some serious
problems. No homoeopathic remedies can be repeated mindlessly without
causing side-effects. This has given the LMs a bad name in certain circles
because they have seen the messed up cases.
Dear Colleagues,
I have done the LMs for 18 years, and in my first years, I over
repeated the remedies and SLOWED DOWN rather than sped the cure on
occasions. As I read the fine print of the Organon, I realized that
Hahnemann said that the LM potency can only be repeated daily "WHEN
NECESSARY" (FN-APH 246 6th Organon) When it is NOT necessary such a
frequent repetition will cause unneeded aggravations, accessory symptoms,
and slow down the cure. This may spoil the case through over medication.
My review of the Paris casebooks showed that Hahnemann rarely gave the
daily dose and did not repeat the remedy for long periods without giving
the patient a series of placebos and waiting and watching. Dr. Croserio
worked with Hahnemann during his LM years (1840-1843). He wrote Hahnemann
almost never used the daily dose and gave large amounts of placebo. There
are very few cases where I find the daily dose necessary, and when
necessary, it usually is not very long before one needs to slow down the
repetitions because the patient is improving at a good rate.
Hahnemann also clearly writes in 247 that
"During treatment, every noticeably progressive and conspicuously
increasing improvement is a state which, as long as it persist, generally
excludes any repetition of the medicine being used because all the good
being produced by the medicine is still hastening towards completion."
This means that any strikingly progressive amelioration that increases
from day to day is a sign the THE LM POTENCY SHOULD NOT BE REPEATED. I have
witness several single dose LM cures in this fashion, even in chronic
diseases. I simple never had to repeat the remedy because it was NOT
NECESSARY. This also means that any time DURING TREATMENT that there is a
strikingly progressive improvement the remedy should be STOPPED.
Note that in the second paragraph that Hahnemann said that repeating
the dose to speed the cure is used on cases where there is "SLOW,
CONTINUOUS IMPROVEMENT ON ONE DOSE", that may take 50, 60, or 100 days to
complete the cure. Then Hahnemann adds five conditions to speeding the cure
of such cases.
1. the remedy must be a true simillimum.
2. the remedy must be highly potentized and given in the medical solution.
3. the remedy must be given in the smallest possible dose.
4. the remedy must be given at suitable intervals (not mechanically daily).
5, the remedy must be succussed prior to administration.
So in nut shell - any strikingly progressive improvement on a single
dose or at any time in the case is a sign that the remedy should not be
repeated. In those cases where there is only a slowly progressive
improvement the remedy my be repeated to speed the cure. So the LM posology
is the union of the wait and watch method and knowing when to repeat the
remedy to speed the cure, WHEN NECESSARY.
Much of the 6th Organon is being taken out of context and much of the
"fine print" is being completely ignored. What it a great scientific and
artistic method has been changed by some into a mechanistic, mechanical
practice that reminds one of the way allopathic doctors give daily doses.
This state of mind is too be avoided at all cost. The 5th and 6th Organon
upholds the middle path between the rigid single dose and the mechanical
repetition of homeopathic remedies. For this reason, one must know when to
let a single dose, or series of does act without repetition, and when to
continue repeat the dose to speed the cure.
Sincerely, David Little
PS. There is no numeral equivalence between the C and LM potency. The C and
LM potency are complementary opposites when it comes to their medical
actions. This greatly expands the horizons of the homoeopathic pharmacy. I
wrote an article this that just appear in Simillimum magazine. Hahnemann
low potencies were 30c-6c in the descending order. His higher potencies
were the 198c, 199c, 200c and the LM 0/1 to 0/30/ in their ascending order.
Boenninghausen tested the LM potency and wrote that the LM potencies had
the actions of the high and highest C potencies of his day. The action of
the LM 0/1 is much more powerful than a 30c potency although by dilution
the original amount of medicine is similar to a 5c to 6c. This is because
the LM potency has a much larger dilution ratio and 100 succussions per
dilution that magnifies the remedial powers of the LM potency in a
different manner than the C potency.
Lastly, it is my advice to students and colleagues to be careful with
the LM potency and not to over medicate one's patients. Help get the word out.
DL
---------------
"It is the life-force which cures diseases because a dead man needs no more
medicines."
Samuel Hahnemann
Visit our website on Hahnemannian Homoeopathy and Cyberspace Homoeopathic
Academy at
http://www.simillimum.com
David Little © 2000
-
Piet Guijt
- Posts: 271
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 10:00 pm
Re: single dose
Dave wrote:
by
Hi Dave,
It is not only 'inaccurate' but totally wrong!
In fact the fluid dose it is larger:
Organon aph. 272:
"Such a globule,1 placed dry upon the tongue, is one of the smallest doses
for a moderate recent case of illness. Here but few nerves are touched by
the medicine. A similar globule, crushed with some sugar of milk and
dissolved in a good deal of water ($ 247) and stirred well before every
administration will produce a far more powerful medicine for the use of
several days. Every dose, no matter how minute, touches, on the contrary,
many nerves"
The information of our globule is copied to the molecules of the fluid, so
we get more medicine.
More dilution cups give no simple 'dilution', it gives an attenuation of
your original 'signal',
just like a radiosignal is getting weaker in space. This happens because you
don't shake and add energy to the fluid in comparising with making a
potentation.
Kind regards, Piet
by
Hi Dave,
It is not only 'inaccurate' but totally wrong!
In fact the fluid dose it is larger:
Organon aph. 272:
"Such a globule,1 placed dry upon the tongue, is one of the smallest doses
for a moderate recent case of illness. Here but few nerves are touched by
the medicine. A similar globule, crushed with some sugar of milk and
dissolved in a good deal of water ($ 247) and stirred well before every
administration will produce a far more powerful medicine for the use of
several days. Every dose, no matter how minute, touches, on the contrary,
many nerves"
The information of our globule is copied to the molecules of the fluid, so
we get more medicine.
More dilution cups give no simple 'dilution', it gives an attenuation of
your original 'signal',
just like a radiosignal is getting weaker in space. This happens because you
don't shake and add energy to the fluid in comparising with making a
potentation.
Kind regards, Piet
-
Dave Hartley
- Posts: 992
- Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:47 pm
Re: single dose
You're taking a statement out of context, then comparing apples & oranges.
The SIZE of a dose (actual amount of medication from originally medicating
the pillule) is what I was attempting to illustrate.
The number of nerves touched by pillule or water is another topic
altogether.
The attenuation caused by dilution (without succussion) in liquid posology's
"dilution cups" is well known clinically to produce LESS STRONG reaction to
remedy; less strong serially- that is less strong in the 2nd dilution than
the 1st.
regards,
Dave Hartley
http://www.localcomputermart.com
Santa Cruz, CA (831)423-4284
Asheville Computer (N. Carolina) (828)285-0240
The SIZE of a dose (actual amount of medication from originally medicating
the pillule) is what I was attempting to illustrate.
The number of nerves touched by pillule or water is another topic
altogether.
The attenuation caused by dilution (without succussion) in liquid posology's
"dilution cups" is well known clinically to produce LESS STRONG reaction to
remedy; less strong serially- that is less strong in the 2nd dilution than
the 1st.
regards,
Dave Hartley
http://www.localcomputermart.com
Santa Cruz, CA (831)423-4284
Asheville Computer (N. Carolina) (828)285-0240
-
Piet Guijt
- Posts: 271
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 10:00 pm
Re: single dose
Dave wrote:
Hahnemann is telling us that a globule, placed dry upon the tongue, is one
of the smallest doses
and that a similar globule, dissolved in a good deal of water and stirred
well before every administration will produce a far more powerful medicine.
So in EFFECT the fluid dose is stronger! What is the meaning of you
calculations, where does it lead to?
Hahnemann's explanation about the medicine that 'touches the nerves' is
very speculative.
With dynamic medicine there is nothing to 'touch', even holding a botlle
with the remedy will give a reaction.
A small drop with 1 globule dissolved in it, is a smaller dose than the same
globule in a cup of water.
Do you think the result is the same: take the drop or drinking the whole
cup?
I is not a matter of simple dilution!
Yes, when you bring a bit fluid into a second cup, it will be weaker, but
that's not the point, I already explained this.
More dilution cups give no simple 'dilution', it gives an attenuation of
your original 'signal/ information', just like a radiosignal is getting
weaker in space.
Dilution cups are not very effective when you use teaspoons of remedies, it
is better to use and to take only a very small drop.
Kind regards, Piet
Hahnemann is telling us that a globule, placed dry upon the tongue, is one
of the smallest doses
and that a similar globule, dissolved in a good deal of water and stirred
well before every administration will produce a far more powerful medicine.
So in EFFECT the fluid dose is stronger! What is the meaning of you
calculations, where does it lead to?
Hahnemann's explanation about the medicine that 'touches the nerves' is
very speculative.
With dynamic medicine there is nothing to 'touch', even holding a botlle
with the remedy will give a reaction.
A small drop with 1 globule dissolved in it, is a smaller dose than the same
globule in a cup of water.
Do you think the result is the same: take the drop or drinking the whole
cup?
I is not a matter of simple dilution!
Yes, when you bring a bit fluid into a second cup, it will be weaker, but
that's not the point, I already explained this.
More dilution cups give no simple 'dilution', it gives an attenuation of
your original 'signal/ information', just like a radiosignal is getting
weaker in space.
Dilution cups are not very effective when you use teaspoons of remedies, it
is better to use and to take only a very small drop.
Kind regards, Piet
-
Dave Hartley
- Posts: 992
- Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:47 pm
Re: single dose
"What is the meaning of you calculations, where does it lead to?"
Geez. If you can remember back to the post you were referring.. and to the
thread (topic, conversation) and context within which it appeared.. you
might remember that I was trying to "debunk" (explain, correct) someone's
idea that one could effectively calculate a mathematical equivalency between
LM and C potency scales... the conversation then went on to discuss liquid
posology & repetition. Within THAT CONTEXT- the meaning of "my calculation"
was just to quickly show that a far LESSER AMOUNT of medicine is in a
typical liquid posology "dose" than in one pillule "dry" dose.
Also, from my experience and from most of what I read, the context in which
"in EFFECT the fluid dose is stronger" -is that of judicious repetition.
The reason that liquid posology can gently "speed the cure" in 1/2 or even
1/4 of the time required by dry-dose posology is *NOT* because a single
"split" liquid dose is "stronger"
-it is because we are able to *MAINTAIN* the curative action of the remedy
by judicious repetition; repetition *BEFORE* the action of the remedy is
exhausted -which cannot be done with dry-dose due to the danger of
aggravation from the much larger and static (non-adjustable, no minor
dynamization changes possible) dry-dose.
You ask:
"Do you think the result is the same: take the drop or drinking the whole
cup?"
Answer is, (predictably- perhaps the only accurately predictable generality
-it depends on the individual and the case in question.
In THEORY- some would say that the dose would be the same. I would say NOT;
and that this could be demonstrated by producing aggravation in an
aggressively managed case- if you were repeating judiciously so as to
maximize the speed of cure, having established thru careful trial &
observation the appropriate level of dilution, the appropriate number of
succussions.. if you then (better you than your client
were to drink the
whole cup, I'm reasonably certain you'd wish you hadn't! (I've tried a
similar experiment; inadvertently succussing too many times- experienced an
immediate but thankfully short-lasting aggravation.)
Dilution cups & the 8tbsp (4oz) remedy-solution, as recommended by Hahnemann
in 5th & 6th Organon, are part of the MOST flexible, most adjustable method
of practicing a high level of art in case management via liquid posology of
which we as homeopaths have exposure to.
Olfacation may be useful in some cases, and many (including Hahnemann) have
experimented with other (smaller, lesser) dilutions; none of the reports
I've heard on these experiements lead me to believe there is much value in
my repeating them.
If anyone is unclear on differing remedy solutions, there is a good article
on David Little's website, in the Case Management section of the "Little
Library"
http://www.simillimum.com/Thelittlelibr ... tions.html
regards,
Dave Hartley
http://www.localcomputermart.com
Santa Cruz, CA (831)423-4284
Asheville Computer (N. Carolina) (828)285-0240
Geez. If you can remember back to the post you were referring.. and to the
thread (topic, conversation) and context within which it appeared.. you
might remember that I was trying to "debunk" (explain, correct) someone's
idea that one could effectively calculate a mathematical equivalency between
LM and C potency scales... the conversation then went on to discuss liquid
posology & repetition. Within THAT CONTEXT- the meaning of "my calculation"
was just to quickly show that a far LESSER AMOUNT of medicine is in a
typical liquid posology "dose" than in one pillule "dry" dose.
Also, from my experience and from most of what I read, the context in which
"in EFFECT the fluid dose is stronger" -is that of judicious repetition.
The reason that liquid posology can gently "speed the cure" in 1/2 or even
1/4 of the time required by dry-dose posology is *NOT* because a single
"split" liquid dose is "stronger"
-it is because we are able to *MAINTAIN* the curative action of the remedy
by judicious repetition; repetition *BEFORE* the action of the remedy is
exhausted -which cannot be done with dry-dose due to the danger of
aggravation from the much larger and static (non-adjustable, no minor
dynamization changes possible) dry-dose.
You ask:
"Do you think the result is the same: take the drop or drinking the whole
cup?"
Answer is, (predictably- perhaps the only accurately predictable generality
-it depends on the individual and the case in question.
In THEORY- some would say that the dose would be the same. I would say NOT;
and that this could be demonstrated by producing aggravation in an
aggressively managed case- if you were repeating judiciously so as to
maximize the speed of cure, having established thru careful trial &
observation the appropriate level of dilution, the appropriate number of
succussions.. if you then (better you than your client
were to drink thewhole cup, I'm reasonably certain you'd wish you hadn't! (I've tried a
similar experiment; inadvertently succussing too many times- experienced an
immediate but thankfully short-lasting aggravation.)
Dilution cups & the 8tbsp (4oz) remedy-solution, as recommended by Hahnemann
in 5th & 6th Organon, are part of the MOST flexible, most adjustable method
of practicing a high level of art in case management via liquid posology of
which we as homeopaths have exposure to.
Olfacation may be useful in some cases, and many (including Hahnemann) have
experimented with other (smaller, lesser) dilutions; none of the reports
I've heard on these experiements lead me to believe there is much value in
my repeating them.
If anyone is unclear on differing remedy solutions, there is a good article
on David Little's website, in the Case Management section of the "Little
Library"
http://www.simillimum.com/Thelittlelibr ... tions.html
regards,
Dave Hartley
http://www.localcomputermart.com
Santa Cruz, CA (831)423-4284
Asheville Computer (N. Carolina) (828)285-0240
Re: single dose
Dave, I think your post was for Piet but...
this needs clarifying
"Within THAT CONTEXT- the meaning of "my calculation"
And finally,
" repetition *BEFORE* the action of the remedy is
Surely every individual dynamization is crudely going to differ for each
client, is therefore unreliable and experimental. How can we depend on such
a process merely to avoid an aggravation which might not occur in the first
place? Homeopathy can't be that fragile surely.
Regards, Joy
_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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this needs clarifying
"Within THAT CONTEXT- the meaning of "my calculation"
And finally,
" repetition *BEFORE* the action of the remedy is
Surely every individual dynamization is crudely going to differ for each
client, is therefore unreliable and experimental. How can we depend on such
a process merely to avoid an aggravation which might not occur in the first
place? Homeopathy can't be that fragile surely.
Regards, Joy
_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
-
Soroush Ebrahimi
- Moderator
- Posts: 4510
- Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:00 pm
Re: single dose
Homoeopathic remedies are DYNAMIC.
When you drop a 30C (or whatever potency) in water, the whole amount of the
water is at 30C.
Homoeopathic remedies are also operating at a qualitative rather than
quantitative level (unless we are working below 12C where traces of the
chemical still remain).
Experiments have shown that the remedy in water is more effective.
Is it not against Hn's instructions to sit here theorizing as what might be
happening and how many nerve endings we may be touching etc (how many angels
on the tip of a pin??) type questions? Noting that the homoeopathic remedy
can be applied through the mouth, skin, nose etc., are we achieving anything
through these type of questions? If so please let me understand what is
behind the questions. (perhaps I am having one of my 'being thick' days)
Regards
Soroush
When you drop a 30C (or whatever potency) in water, the whole amount of the
water is at 30C.
Homoeopathic remedies are also operating at a qualitative rather than
quantitative level (unless we are working below 12C where traces of the
chemical still remain).
Experiments have shown that the remedy in water is more effective.
Is it not against Hn's instructions to sit here theorizing as what might be
happening and how many nerve endings we may be touching etc (how many angels
on the tip of a pin??) type questions? Noting that the homoeopathic remedy
can be applied through the mouth, skin, nose etc., are we achieving anything
through these type of questions? If so please let me understand what is
behind the questions. (perhaps I am having one of my 'being thick' days)
Regards
Soroush
Re: single dose
Soroush, MY discussion has been about repetition of dose and I have queried
statements of Hahnemann which seem contradictory to the point worthy of
discussion. I still haven't had a clear response. I do not feel the need for
you to be preaching the absolute basics of potency (not to me anyway). And
are you now going to be instructing us as to what we can or cannot discuss??
I think your remedy is showing. How is the weather in your part of the
country!! Regards, Joy
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
statements of Hahnemann which seem contradictory to the point worthy of
discussion. I still haven't had a clear response. I do not feel the need for
you to be preaching the absolute basics of potency (not to me anyway). And
are you now going to be instructing us as to what we can or cannot discuss??
I think your remedy is showing. How is the weather in your part of the
country!! Regards, Joy
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com