help with 2 puzzles

[Johanna Tudin]

Dear Group
I have a problem that I am trying to sort out and would very much
appreciate your input.
I have 2 daughters (ages 18 and 23.) both working as counsellors at a
residential camp for the summer. The campers are for the most part from
broken/foster homes and many are or have been abused. My daughters are
very good with children and love what they are doing, challenges and
all. The problem is their sleep/dreams.
Puzzle #1
The oldest wakes up at 3am every morning dreaming that she is with her
group and they are in a canoe and she is trying to pull them to safety
or she is trying to make sure they all have their life-jackets on.
There is no fear on her part or on the part of the campers but there is
frustration on her part that they re not helping her. When she dreams
she sits up in her bed, she opens her eyes and sees the clock and
registers the time. In this state she knows she is in her bunk, and
acknowledges that there are no campers; she answers if other counsellors
talk to her but she is still quite involved visually in her dream; she
seems to be caught between 2 worlds. She has been doing this all summer
even when on her breaks. She tells herself before going to bed that the
campers are safely tucked in there bed and that she is going to sleep
but this reoccurs every night. She is at the point where is starting to
think she is going crazy.
She does not do this at home. She is a university student and when
things get really stressful she sometimes will talk in her sleep,
Her constitution is Silica and she took silica before leaving for camp
which balanced her out quite nicely but does nothing for this dream
problem. She takes no caffeine and does take a good quality multi
vitamin/mineral supplement as well as the bio tissues salts
approximately 3 times a week. I have given her calc. carb. which only
mildly alleviated the problem for one night. I keep coming up with kali
brom. or kali carb.. If it is one of the kalis would the tissue salts
not take care of it? I do also come up with bryonia which she seems to
think fits her sleep picture. I gave her a 200c and it did nothing.I am
too close to this case and am looking for some object help. Can you
make any suggestions?
Puzzle number 2
My 18 year old daughter is with her at this camp.(They are extremely
close but independent.) Her problem is that she also spends her nights
dreaming about her kids, never has the same dream but the theme revolves
around the campers. She thrashes around in her bed, screams that
someone is trying to steal them from her or she has lost them. She
sometimes sleepwalks (she is on an upper bunk bed) and has no
recollection of doing so. She thrashes around in bed so much that the
blankets are all on the floor in the morning and she has bruises from
hitting the wall. She remembers nothing in the morning but the poor
counsellors sharing the room with her sure do. Her constitution is
calc. carb. She did go into a sepia state shortly before her periods
but 1 dose of 200c alleviated this problem almost instantly. She also
takes her vit/mineral supplement and keeps forgetting to take her tissue
salts!!!! I am leaning towards Zinc but am unsure. I keep thinking that
if it is zinc then the crude dose in her supplement should help.
I am the having a hard time being objective and would appreciate any
suggestions anyone may have. They are both very tired because of the
lack of restful sleep and are very embarrassed and their nightly
ravings.
Can anyone help?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Eleana Needham]

Dear Johanna

My feeling from your email is that both your daughters, being compassionate
and open girls, have been absorbing the energies of the campers which
include their sense of fear and insecurity,-understandable considering their
background.

Your girls need grounding and they need to re-establish their own healthy
boundaries and not take on the energetic baggage which is floating around
them. Remedies like Arnica, Aconite, Phosphorus, Sulphur and Oak come to
mind, perhaps flower essences like Fringed Violet, or Rescue Remedy. Also,
a little meditation exercise where they re-establish their grounding
connection may help.

Eleana

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[andyh]

Dear Johanna,
One thought in general for both women is that the driving factor is anxiety for others/nursing and the problems that come about from that role, as these are both responsible, care-taking/nursing type people. The disturbed sleep brings Cocculus indicus to mind as a possibility. They are so young and vital that the untoward effects (physical ailments from problematic sleep) may not be affecting them much (yet), although you write:

"They are both very tired because of the
lack of restful sleep and are very embarrassed at their nightly
ravings."

Cocc
Kent: Sleeplessness from long nursing and from night watching; that is a symptom that I have called your attention to so often. Anxious, frightful dreams; ill effects from loss of sleep and night watching. "Slightest loss of sleep tells on him."

Complete 2000
MIND; ANXIETY; others, for (34) : acon., aeth., androc., arg-n., ars., aur., bar-c., calc-p., calc-s., carb-v., carc., caust., chel., cocc., corv-c., cupr., dulc., falco-p., ferr., fl-ac., germ., hep., ign., manc., merc., naja, nat-c., nux-v., perh., ph-ac., phos., sac-alb., staph., sulph.

Knerr:
DURING SLEEP: DREAMS: STAGE, HALF-WAKING. 0>1>0
Dreams: anxious. 0>4>43
Dreams: frightful. 0>2>34
DREAMS: HORRIBLE: SLEEP, PREVENT. 0>1>0
Dreams: vivid. 2>22>24
During sleep: restlessness. 0>7>109
There is also this rubric in Complete 2000:

SLEEP; WAKING; anxiety, from (3) : agar., cocc., samb.
Some confirmatory questions:

CAR SICKNESS?

Cocculus indicus
-----------------------------------------------
ice cold water.
Headache, as if nail driven into brain < open air.
Dysmenorrhea w/ large, black clots.
Coffee. N.O. Rubiacie. Tincture of raw berries.

Two ideas at least. I'm sure there will be other ones to consider from the group.
Best,
Andy
==================
Johanna Tudin wrote:

[Johanna Tudin]

Dear Andy,

Thank you for your suggestions. They have a 30c emergency kit with them
and the last time I talked to them (I only can talk to them once every
10 days) the 23 years old (Kirstin)said that coffea had no effect on
her. I looked at cocc. but there are no confirmatory symptoms that I
feel cover the case besides the tiredness which is not only due to
unrefreshed sleep, but from putting in 14-16 hour days. The problem is
the dreaming. I don't know if concentrating on the dreams themselves or
the sense of duty or the absorption of the energy from the campers is
what should be focused on or the time she awakes and the inability to
get into REM sleep. I guess I am waiting for a remedy which will cover
most of this.

With the 18 year old (Ashley) the violence, the somnambulance and the
not remembering any of it most of the time are the symptoms I have
concentrated on. I am so wrapped up in this that I have lost my
objectivity and need a fresh set of eyes.

Johanna

[Johanna Tudin]

Dear Elena,

Thank you for your suggestions. I guess I am looking for an all
encompassing remedy for each and nothing I have looked at seems to
capture the essence. I do not know much about flower essences so I will
definitely take a look at the Fringed violet and the Rescue Remedy.

Another thing the sisters have in common is the oldest has ADD and the
youngest has ADHD. The oldest (Kirstin) responds to helleborous when
severely challenged and the youngest (Ashley) responds to anacardium.
However these remedies are not indicated for these sleep/dream problems.
Johanna

[andyh]

Johanna Tudin wrote:
777 Well, if not even any carsickness history or any other hints thereof, then have to look elsewhere.

Daughter 1--Silica sure has a big boundary issue (ie no boundaries to speak of). So maybe posology needs adjustment--higher potency or more reps. Another idea--Phos is a sil main complement, and is bold for ailmenst for sleep loss.

Daughter 2--Calc has rhus-t as "acute" complement (thrashing sleeper is a rhus-t keynote). So maybe posology adjustment for Calc would help there also.

Nux-v is also complementary to both these rx, and has anxiety others and ails loss of sleep and wakes at 3AM.
but here are some other rubrics ideas, hope helpful. Best, Andy

GENERALITIES; SLEEP; loss of, from (45) : adam., ambr., ars., bry., calad., calc., carb-v., caust., cham., chin., cimic., Cocc., coff., colch., cupr., ign., ip., kali-p., kreos., lac-d., laur., med., merc., mygal., nat-m., nit-ac., Nux-v., ol-j., olnd., op., pall., ph-ac., Phos., pic-ac., puls., rhus-t., ruta, sabin., sang., sel., sep., sulph., zinc., zinc-acet., zinc-o.

MIND; DREAMS; responsibility, of; children, for (2) : lac-del., lim-b-c.

MIND; DREAMS; responsibility, of; disabled young adults, towards (1) : lac-leo.

MIND; DREAMS; responsibility, of (5) : carc., helod-c., lac-del., lac-leo., lim-b-c.

SLEEP; WAKING; midnight; after; three am. (73) : adam., am-br., am-c., am-m., ars., ba-sv., bad., bamb-a., bell-p., benz-ac., bor., bry., bufo, cahin., calc., calc-f., carb-v., carl., chin., coff., cupr., dys-co., euphr., fago., ferr-ma., form., glon., graph., haliae-lc., ham., hed., ind., jug-c., kali-bi., kali-c., kola., lac-eq., lac-leo., lac-lox-a., lil-t., lyc., m-p-a., mag-c., mag-m., mag-s., mand., mangi., mez., nat-c., nat-m., nicc., nit-ac., Nux-v., op., parth., phyt., pic-ac., plat., ran-s., raph., rat., rauw., rhus-t., saroth., sel., seneg., sep., sil., Sulph.,
syc-co., tung., zinc-p., zing.

MIND; ANXIETY; others, for (34) : acon., aeth., androc., arg-n., ars., aur., bar-c., calc-p., calc-s., carb-v., carc., caust., chel., cocc., corv-c., cupr., dulc., falco-p., ferr., fl-ac., germ., hep., ign., manc., merc., naja, nat-c., nux-v., perh., ph-ac., phos., sac-alb., staph., sulph.

SLEEP; RESTLESS; dreams, from (77) : acon., agar., ambr., ang., ant-c., arn., ars., asaf., aster., aur., bac., bry., calad., caps., carb-v., chel., Chin., clem., coloc., dig., dulc., euph., ferr., ferr-p., gaert., gran., guai., ign., ip., kali-c., lach., led., lyc., lycps., m-arct., m-p-a., meph., merc-s., mosch., nat-c., nat-m., nit-ac., nux-v., olnd., op., par., petr., phos., plb., puls., pyrog., ran-s., rhod., rhus-t., ruta, sabad., sabin., samb., sars., sec., sel., seneg., sep., sil., Spig., spong., stann., staph., stram., stront-c., sulph., teucr., thiop., thuj., valer.,
verb., zinc.

MIND; SOMNAMBULISM (72) : Acon., agar., allox., alum., alum-sil., anac., ant-c., arg., art-v., aur-br., bell., bry., calc., camph., cann-i., cham., chap., chel., chlol., cic., croc., crot-h., cur., cycl., des-ac., Dict., gaert., guare., hell., hipp., hyos., hyper., ign., kali-br., kali-c., kali-p., kali-s., kalm., kola., lach., lap-a., luna, lyc., lyss., m-arct., m-p-a., meph., mosch., Nat-m., nit-ac., OP., paeon., petr., Phos., plat., podo., psor., rheum, rumx., sep., sil., spig., spong., stann., stram., sulph., tarent., tein., teucr., tub., verat., zinc.

SLEEP; SEMI-CONSCIOUS (95) : acon., agar., alum., alumn., am-c., ambr., anac., ang., ant-c., apis, ars., asar., aur., bamb-a., bapt., Bell., berb., bry., calad., calc., cann-i., canth., carb-v., casc., Cham., chel., chin., chin-s., choc., cocc., coff., coloc., con., dig., dios., ferr., gels., graph., grat., hipp., hydr-ac., hyos., ign., kali-br., kali-c., kali-n., kola., lac-del., lach., lact., led., m-arct., mang., merc., merc-i-r., morph., narcot., nat-c., nat-m., nat-p., neon, nit-ac., nux-v., ol-an., olnd., op., ozone, par., paro-i., petr., phos., pip-m., plat., prun., puls.,
ran-s., raph., rhus-t., ruta, sabad., saroth., sec., sel., sep., sil., spig., spong., staph., stront-c., sul-ac., sulph., tarent., valer., verat., zinc-val.

[andyh]

Johanna Tudin wrote:
777 Helleborus is an acute complement of Baryta carbonica, in case that is helpful, if daughter one is dependent sort, bar-c could be there (having carb component in common with what works somewhat). Anxiety could be produced from lack of self-confidence.

Anac of course also a problem with self-confidence.

If that is driving the dream disturbance, then may not be necessary to match the specific dream sx to an rx. The thrashing is pretty peculiar, the somnambulism type thing is also. But it is not clear if they are what is CHARACTERISTIC (caps for emphasis only). They are part of the case, but dont know if we have heard the whole skinny on what these daughters have as issues (?)

Hope useful

A

[andyh]

Dear Johanna,
Jean may have solved your case(s). Desire for company (help) (in dream); waking from dreams in terror; somnambulism; violence (in dream but thrashes on bed);--maybe you have twins there.

A

[V.T. Yekkirala]

Hi,
You may consider Aeth. for both.
Vithoulkas says:
"There is an alternative path for the release of the emotional energy; the
patient may become extremely involved with social work. There is something
quite similar here to the tendency to care for animals. Through social work
he expresses love, but without the need to directly communicate about his
feelings to another individual. The patient may paradoxically state in the
interview, "I have finished with human beings." However, at another point he
may say that he has moments when he "...wants to embrace the whole world."
He is capable of feeling great love. It is exactly this discrepancy that
characterizes the Aethusa case.
Now, it easy to imagine that if insufficient outlets are found for this
intense emotionality, if the feelings remain withheld, the emotions can
overload the subconscious mind. This overloading sets the stage for much of
the pathology of Aethusa. As the brimming subconscious mind overflows, we
may often see the patient begin to talk to himself. He may not even notice
people around him as he voices his thoughts out loud. It is a "pouring out"
-- symbolically, a verbal equivalent of the vomiting and diarrhea of this
remedy. Staphisagria may also talk to himself; he is very emotional and
needs emotional communication but when something a little bit aggressive is
said to him, he withdraws at once, goes home and talks to his mirror

other possibilities are:
[nl2 - Basaltic lava] 6th night
[nl2 - Basaltic lava] Lots of dreams about work and a society I am involved
in but don't remember them very well. P10 6

of course, cere-b ...

just my thoughts
with best wishes,
V.T.Yekkirala.
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[APEX PRECITECH]

Dear Andy & dear Joanna,
there is another one idea.

dreams, fixed ideas, in dreams: acon,ign, puls,stann
dreams: continuation: waking after:
acon,3ign,puls,(among a list)
dreams; anxious: 3 acon,2ign,3puls(among a list)
boger's mm gives this symptom. Fixed ideas in dreams
and persisiting after waking up.

Imho the king pin sx is the nature and the persisting
after awaking. Keeping this "to be cured", its after
effect of dreams agg, sleeplessness are solved
automatically.

Just a thought.
Ignatia is a very very conscientious remedy and
sleepless with
dreams after midnight.

Regards
venkat

--- "andyh@mcn.org" wrote: > Dear
Johanna,

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