person to person. Its the basic argument against >RDA's. One person needs
100mg Vitamin C daily and another >person needs 10000mg daily.
yes quite so. something we yet know comparitively little about.
Perhaps a malabsorption problem, perhaps an >enzyme deficiency. That is
still a disease on the physical >plane. Not all "physical diseases" have to
manifest
show up with signs of nausea and fatigue.
i think this is very complex. certainly many cases of a high need for a
micro-nutrient may be caused by a disease factor or malnutrition. so it
needs to be addressed somehow [whter by homeopathy or other means].
but otherwise it may be simply a person's idiosyncratic set-up in their
enzymatic pathways or assimilation processes. so you need 7mg of copper
daily, i need 3mg, but we are both quite healthy.
homeopathy?
no idea. this would be very interesting to know.
doesn't get any amount of a certain nutrient (such as the >sailors who
developed scurvy).
[btw: 1/3 of de Gama's sailors did not develop scurvy. some people still
retain the enzymatic pathways to produce ascorbic acid endogenously. an
interesting illustration of biochemical diversity].
can probably even digest, we have >disease and we need homeopathy.
well we just have our unique biochemical imbalance. if it is pushed too
far, maybe it needs treatment. homeopathy maybe could help in some
circumstances, maybe not in others.
that it should have said "Same as the "blue >eyed /blonde hair" which COULD
be one of the factors in a
Piet is hoping to collect the observations of homeopaths in Scandinavia to
test this idea empirically.
andrew
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biochemical individuality
-
Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: biochemical individuality
Just in case it interests anyone 
, *some* possible causes of high
nutrient needs are available. E.g.:
Adrenal misfunction ("stress" and/or organ weakness) can lead to high needs
for: vitamin C, certain B vitamins, magnesium, protein, salt, digestive
enzymes (perhaps others, but these are the ones I know). Some of these are
used in greater amounts when the adrenal is struggling; others are just
recycled less efficiently.
Chronic infection -- vitamin C (ditto caveat)
digestive trouble -- whatever is being imperfectly digested (mostly commonly
proteins).
There would be *lots* of connections to be made...
A good constitutional, oops I mean "chronic" and probably "miasmatic" remedy
will almost certainly reduce these high needs to a great extent, for a whole
range of possible reasons. Usually the high needs could be brought into
"the range of normal".
If the high need is due to genetic defect or missing organs, then of course
amelioration will be limited, but still it should help. Even if we were all
"healthy", we'd have biochemical individuality, but a *lot* less so than
what we see today!!!
Shannon
on 1/24/03 4:54 PM, Phosphor at phosphor@hotkey.net.au wrote:
, *some* possible causes of highnutrient needs are available. E.g.:
Adrenal misfunction ("stress" and/or organ weakness) can lead to high needs
for: vitamin C, certain B vitamins, magnesium, protein, salt, digestive
enzymes (perhaps others, but these are the ones I know). Some of these are
used in greater amounts when the adrenal is struggling; others are just
recycled less efficiently.
Chronic infection -- vitamin C (ditto caveat)
digestive trouble -- whatever is being imperfectly digested (mostly commonly
proteins).
There would be *lots* of connections to be made...
A good constitutional, oops I mean "chronic" and probably "miasmatic" remedy
will almost certainly reduce these high needs to a great extent, for a whole
range of possible reasons. Usually the high needs could be brought into
"the range of normal".
If the high need is due to genetic defect or missing organs, then of course
amelioration will be limited, but still it should help. Even if we were all
"healthy", we'd have biochemical individuality, but a *lot* less so than
what we see today!!!
Shannon
on 1/24/03 4:54 PM, Phosphor at phosphor@hotkey.net.au wrote:
-
Paul Booyse
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm
Re: biochemical individuality
from
needs
you said:
The guys who do orthomolecular nutrition know plenty about it.
to
you said:
No, we are both quite healthy when you get 3mg and I get 7mg. Otherwise
there is dis-ease. The "idiosyncratic" setup is the individuality of the
person. Just the same as I can handle cold weather and you get ill when
cold. Or, you do well on soya, but I am allergic to it. Or I am not phased
by confrontation but someone else is. You have to look at the whole
picture. This is chronic disease. It is individualized malnutrition, but it
is exaggerated to the extreme for the person with disease. Even in cases of
certain illnesses, we see a need for nutrients increase.
Plenty of people. I am sure many homeopaths have treated patients who have
previously or at the time were currently using SSRI's.
you said:
Didn't know that was possible. Are you sure they can synthesize their own
ascorbic acid? Perhaps the 1/3 didn't devlop scurvy becuase they didn't
have low enough clinical levels. Perhaps their biochemic needs were such
that they could do with less.
we
When our needs are not realistic (e.g. how many oranges do you need to eat
to get 10000mg ascorbic acid daily?), thats a sure sign of disorder, a sure
sign that aphorism 9 is going to be more unlikely.
COULD
at the end of the day we should avoid shortcuts. Its nice to know, but each
case must be taken on merits. I would only use it as a confirmer if all
else fitted.
Paul
needs
you said:
The guys who do orthomolecular nutrition know plenty about it.
to
you said:
No, we are both quite healthy when you get 3mg and I get 7mg. Otherwise
there is dis-ease. The "idiosyncratic" setup is the individuality of the
person. Just the same as I can handle cold weather and you get ill when
cold. Or, you do well on soya, but I am allergic to it. Or I am not phased
by confrontation but someone else is. You have to look at the whole
picture. This is chronic disease. It is individualized malnutrition, but it
is exaggerated to the extreme for the person with disease. Even in cases of
certain illnesses, we see a need for nutrients increase.
Plenty of people. I am sure many homeopaths have treated patients who have
previously or at the time were currently using SSRI's.
you said:
Didn't know that was possible. Are you sure they can synthesize their own
ascorbic acid? Perhaps the 1/3 didn't devlop scurvy becuase they didn't
have low enough clinical levels. Perhaps their biochemic needs were such
that they could do with less.
we
When our needs are not realistic (e.g. how many oranges do you need to eat
to get 10000mg ascorbic acid daily?), thats a sure sign of disorder, a sure
sign that aphorism 9 is going to be more unlikely.
COULD
at the end of the day we should avoid shortcuts. Its nice to know, but each
case must be taken on merits. I would only use it as a confirmer if all
else fitted.
Paul
Re: biochemical individuality
not much compared to what still remains to be learnt.
same as I can handle cold weather and you get ill >when cold. Or, you do
well on soya, but I am allergic to it. Or I >am not phased by confrontation
but someone else is. You >have to look at the whole picture. This is
chronic disease. It is >individualized malnutrition, but it is exaggerated
to the extreme >for the person with disease.
well it may, or may not be, chronic disease in the Hn sense . a perverse requirement could arise as a result of
malnutrition [eg needing 3,000 mg of niacin to restore balance after years
of deficit], or especially following a febrile illness. As i understand it
the abnormal temperature ina fever could knock out enzymatic pathways which
then become difficult to restore to their former state. so what was an
idiosyncracy could become a pathology for sure.
have previously or at the time were currently >using SSRI's.
what I thought you meant was that some studies have shown raised serotonin
levels in patients treated homepathically. now that would be interesting..
ascorbic acid?
if my memory serves me correctly. studies done on some scandinavian
sub-populations [possibly Sami] have shown this. i will try to find it
again.
that they could do with less.
yes quite possibly. but the same conclusion applies.
to get 10000mg ascorbic acid daily?), thats a >sure sign of disorder.
that's a good definition, very usable. but it would have to be put in the
context of what was a natural diet for our ancestors...ie heavy in organ
meats, sea mammals etc. no one could get 500mcg of chromium in the modern
diet but for people who ate whale meat would be easily achieved.
Andrew
same as I can handle cold weather and you get ill >when cold. Or, you do
well on soya, but I am allergic to it. Or I >am not phased by confrontation
but someone else is. You >have to look at the whole picture. This is
chronic disease. It is >individualized malnutrition, but it is exaggerated
to the extreme >for the person with disease.
well it may, or may not be, chronic disease in the Hn sense . a perverse requirement could arise as a result of
malnutrition [eg needing 3,000 mg of niacin to restore balance after years
of deficit], or especially following a febrile illness. As i understand it
the abnormal temperature ina fever could knock out enzymatic pathways which
then become difficult to restore to their former state. so what was an
idiosyncracy could become a pathology for sure.
have previously or at the time were currently >using SSRI's.
what I thought you meant was that some studies have shown raised serotonin
levels in patients treated homepathically. now that would be interesting..
ascorbic acid?
if my memory serves me correctly. studies done on some scandinavian
sub-populations [possibly Sami] have shown this. i will try to find it
again.
that they could do with less.
yes quite possibly. but the same conclusion applies.
to get 10000mg ascorbic acid daily?), thats a >sure sign of disorder.
that's a good definition, very usable. but it would have to be put in the
context of what was a natural diet for our ancestors...ie heavy in organ
meats, sea mammals etc. no one could get 500mcg of chromium in the modern
diet but for people who ate whale meat would be easily achieved.
Andrew
-
Paul Booyse
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm
Re: biochemical individuality
if
exactly
You would only need to restore as much as is needed for healthy function
which would be nominal and once adequate levels were achieved normal daily
amounts would be suffiicient, UNLESS there was disease, so :-
which
You then have a chronic disease state, different to malnutrition from simply
not getting any in your diet as in a dietary malnutrition case.
interesting..
Do they even do that for SSRI's? Anyway the whole SSRI thing is more about
marketing the drugs than anything. An excuse to prescribe. For me I take
the improvement of the patient as a criteria for succesful prescribing.
such
That they made their own ascorbic acid?
Paul
exactly
You would only need to restore as much as is needed for healthy function
which would be nominal and once adequate levels were achieved normal daily
amounts would be suffiicient, UNLESS there was disease, so :-
which
You then have a chronic disease state, different to malnutrition from simply
not getting any in your diet as in a dietary malnutrition case.
interesting..
Do they even do that for SSRI's? Anyway the whole SSRI thing is more about
marketing the drugs than anything. An excuse to prescribe. For me I take
the improvement of the patient as a criteria for succesful prescribing.
such
That they made their own ascorbic acid?
Paul
-
Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: biochemical individuality
on 1/28/03 2:49 PM, Paul Booyse at pb000014@pixie.co.za wrote:
If I'm understanding you right, my experience goes against what I think you
are saying here. If the body has been operating in "debt mode" for a long
time, there have been a lot of compromises made. Tissues have been
progressively depleted of nutrients (which will be true to some degree for
either water soluble or fat soluble nutrients). And function has been
altered in response to the deficiency. Once make-up time arrives, there
could be a *lot* of making up to do, while stores are replenished and (also
very significant) while the functioning of the body gradually moves out of
"poverty consciousness", "panic mode", etc., and back to a more normal style
of functioning. This can (will probably) go WAY beyond just re-establishing
normal intake.
The body might need very high intake for some time, but once it's caught up,
the need should drop back toward whatever is/was "normal" for that body.
I'd say it's sort of midway between acute and chronic. If the pathways can
be reestablished over time, then it's not a true chronic disease.
But in any case, the very same situation can (will) result from prolonged
malnutrition -- the entire functioning becomes compromised such that
eventually the physiology can't make use of "normal" food, and "normal" diet
is not good enough; but in those cases it should be largely reversible.
What's SSRI?
Shannon
If I'm understanding you right, my experience goes against what I think you
are saying here. If the body has been operating in "debt mode" for a long
time, there have been a lot of compromises made. Tissues have been
progressively depleted of nutrients (which will be true to some degree for
either water soluble or fat soluble nutrients). And function has been
altered in response to the deficiency. Once make-up time arrives, there
could be a *lot* of making up to do, while stores are replenished and (also
very significant) while the functioning of the body gradually moves out of
"poverty consciousness", "panic mode", etc., and back to a more normal style
of functioning. This can (will probably) go WAY beyond just re-establishing
normal intake.
The body might need very high intake for some time, but once it's caught up,
the need should drop back toward whatever is/was "normal" for that body.
I'd say it's sort of midway between acute and chronic. If the pathways can
be reestablished over time, then it's not a true chronic disease.
But in any case, the very same situation can (will) result from prolonged
malnutrition -- the entire functioning becomes compromised such that
eventually the physiology can't make use of "normal" food, and "normal" diet
is not good enough; but in those cases it should be largely reversible.
What's SSRI?
Shannon
Re: biochemical individuality
simply not getting any in your diet as in a dietary >malnutrition case.
i dont know if we can so neatly divide it this way. if it takes 3,000mg of
niacin to restore normal levels, that is a disease state. but would
homeopathy facilitate more rapid restoration in conjunction with more
moderate levels? sounds good in theory but do we know one way or the other?
but as for whether these acquired permanent metabolic disturbances may be
one explanation for chronic miasms seems very feasible.
marketing the drugs than anything. An >excuse to prescribe. For me I take
the improvement of the >patient as a criteria for succesful prescribing.
I agree, but you can't hold back the wagon train. eventually patients
formerly treated by SSRIs will be turning to homeopaths and asking if we can
do the same thing for their serotonin with our pills. also this would be
another way of showing the efficacy of homeopathy.
well the conclusion i was making was that whether thay made their own
ascorbic acid, or whether they had much lower requirements, the phenomena of
biochemical individuality applies. but for the record i believe it was the
former explanation.
andrew
i dont know if we can so neatly divide it this way. if it takes 3,000mg of
niacin to restore normal levels, that is a disease state. but would
homeopathy facilitate more rapid restoration in conjunction with more
moderate levels? sounds good in theory but do we know one way or the other?
but as for whether these acquired permanent metabolic disturbances may be
one explanation for chronic miasms seems very feasible.
marketing the drugs than anything. An >excuse to prescribe. For me I take
the improvement of the >patient as a criteria for succesful prescribing.
I agree, but you can't hold back the wagon train. eventually patients
formerly treated by SSRIs will be turning to homeopaths and asking if we can
do the same thing for their serotonin with our pills. also this would be
another way of showing the efficacy of homeopathy.
well the conclusion i was making was that whether thay made their own
ascorbic acid, or whether they had much lower requirements, the phenomena of
biochemical individuality applies. but for the record i believe it was the
former explanation.
andrew
-
Paul Booyse
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm
Re: biochemical individuality
Hello Shannon,
daily
you
(also
style
re-establishing
Read my statement carefullly, it says exactly this. "as much as is needed
for heaslthy function" is the excess amount to make up for what was lacking,
buikd tissues etc. - then "normal daily amounts would be sufficient" which
is in line with your statement "back to a more normal style of functioning".
and you also said:
up,
exactly what I am saying, UNLESS ..... there is a chronic disease state,
e.g. psora
can
That was Andrew's statement. My reply agrees with yours.
Apologies, - Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors - Prozac etc. They
work by fooling the body that there is more Serotonin. So despite the Doc.
saying "you have a chemical imbalance - you are short of serotonin", the
treatment doesn't actually make more serotonin, it just keeps the secreted
serotonin in the synapse (gap between 2 neurons) a bit longer.
Paul
daily
you
(also
style
re-establishing
Read my statement carefullly, it says exactly this. "as much as is needed
for heaslthy function" is the excess amount to make up for what was lacking,
buikd tissues etc. - then "normal daily amounts would be sufficient" which
is in line with your statement "back to a more normal style of functioning".
and you also said:
up,
exactly what I am saying, UNLESS ..... there is a chronic disease state,
e.g. psora
can
That was Andrew's statement. My reply agrees with yours.
Apologies, - Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors - Prozac etc. They
work by fooling the body that there is more Serotonin. So despite the Doc.
saying "you have a chemical imbalance - you are short of serotonin", the
treatment doesn't actually make more serotonin, it just keeps the secreted
serotonin in the synapse (gap between 2 neurons) a bit longer.
Paul
-
Paul Booyse
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm
Re: biochemical individuality
case.
Thats not what I am saying. I am saying in a simple deficiency you give the
supplement. Maybe you need more to make up for the deficit. Then
eventually normal doses would be OK. Thats a simple malnutrition. But if
you have to keep giving a (usually much) higher dose to the patient, you are
dealing with a chronic (because you have to keep doing this) disease state
(because failure to do this leads to illness - chronic disease state.
about
take
can
Andrew, forgive me asking, but do you treat patients? SSRI's have been
around for some time now and I can't think back to the time when a depressed
or anxious patient of mine hadn'r been on SSRI's. We are talking years of
interface between patients on SSRI's seeking homeopathic advice. Surely you
have had patients in this situation?
of
No - biochemic individuality applies more to the factor of how much of the
ascorbic is needed, i.e. how efficient the biochemic pathways are. Whereas
manufacturing their own ascorbic would be a genetic change - its something
we humans are not supposed to be able to do.
Paul
Thats not what I am saying. I am saying in a simple deficiency you give the
supplement. Maybe you need more to make up for the deficit. Then
eventually normal doses would be OK. Thats a simple malnutrition. But if
you have to keep giving a (usually much) higher dose to the patient, you are
dealing with a chronic (because you have to keep doing this) disease state
(because failure to do this leads to illness - chronic disease state.
about
take
can
Andrew, forgive me asking, but do you treat patients? SSRI's have been
around for some time now and I can't think back to the time when a depressed
or anxious patient of mine hadn'r been on SSRI's. We are talking years of
interface between patients on SSRI's seeking homeopathic advice. Surely you
have had patients in this situation?
of
No - biochemic individuality applies more to the factor of how much of the
ascorbic is needed, i.e. how efficient the biochemic pathways are. Whereas
manufacturing their own ascorbic would be a genetic change - its something
we humans are not supposed to be able to do.
Paul
Re: biochemical individuality
patient, you are dealing with a chronic (because you have >to keep doing
this) disease state
sounds fair. but it may or may not be a miasm.
time when a depressed or anxious patient of mine >hadn'r been on SSRI's. We
are talking years of interface >between patients on SSRI's seeking
homeopathic advice.
until now the interface between homeopathy and biochemistry is about zero.
but time will be that patients will want to see evidence that homeopathic
remedies moderate serotonin levels, whether we like it or not, and whether
we think its relevant or not.
ascorbic is needed, i.e. how efficient the >biochemic pathways are. Whereas
manufacturing their own >ascorbic would be a genetic change - its something
genetically-induced biochemic individuality is the best example you can get.
in terms of ascorbic acid, its the *retention* of a pathway.
andrew
this) disease state
sounds fair. but it may or may not be a miasm.
time when a depressed or anxious patient of mine >hadn'r been on SSRI's. We
are talking years of interface >between patients on SSRI's seeking
homeopathic advice.
until now the interface between homeopathy and biochemistry is about zero.
but time will be that patients will want to see evidence that homeopathic
remedies moderate serotonin levels, whether we like it or not, and whether
we think its relevant or not.
ascorbic is needed, i.e. how efficient the >biochemic pathways are. Whereas
manufacturing their own >ascorbic would be a genetic change - its something
genetically-induced biochemic individuality is the best example you can get.
in terms of ascorbic acid, its the *retention* of a pathway.
andrew