HELP !!! Response to John Harvey regarding the physics of homeopathy

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Guys - I do not know about the rest of the members, but I am completely confused as who says what and how it is answered.

Please can we have: Right at the top of the post

X said: "and quote the statement"

My response is …
What is underneath is a total mess and difficult to follow - I do not know which bits are correct, which bits have been corrected etc.
Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Harvey
Sent: 10 September 2013 11:47
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Response to John Harvey regarding the physics of homeopathy
In a message dated 9/3/2013 8:36:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, John.P.Harvey@gmail.com writes:
JB: Yes, I defy anyone to say its an easy read. You need to open a second window just to look up the words with. I don't think there is anyone who's actually read it through in one session and understood even half of what it says . . after reading Iris Bell's (one of the authors of Structure) review of Chikramin's TEM study (what a phlogiston that was!) I wonder even if she read what her name was put on. But Roy's Structure stands as a milestone piece of work for homeopathy, really in a sense the first, if not the only one of its kind.
Here is one of the world's most well known and respected material scientists investigating homeopathy and his caveat that its not an endorsement notwithstanding, it essentially provides the first academic review of water science to show that homeopathy is physically possible. It's a huge win for homeopathy. But what it doesn't do is suggest how these solutions might have biological effects, Montagnier produces a part of this piece of wonderment and ties it up with a nice little bow. But its Conte who really tackles it. He says the cellular DNA picks up the EM and turns like an antenna array, causing a change in the cellular structure.
JH:
There have been a number of papers on very significant aspects of all this, though. Forgive me for not mentioning earlier a paper I’ve just run across again in a sub-sub-sub-folder: Jinggong Pan, Kang-Nian Zhu, Mengchu Zhou, & Zhi W. Wang, “Low resonant frequency storage and transfer in structured water cluster”, published in the 2003 IEEE International Conference on Systems, Man, and Cybernetics. If you were to go by the abstract, the paper looks relatively unexciting: it presents “some results” related to a hypothesis that “the structured water cluster may not only be an excellent carrier for nutrition and energy, but also an excellent carrier for low frequency information”. Its body, though, contains some real gems.
Although the paper mentions the “memory of water” firestorm of controversy that Jacques Benveniste et al.’s research sparked off, the interest underlying is evidently not a concern with the plausibility of ultrapotencies -- in fact, as the sixth quote below clearly illustrates, the authors don’t understand the homoeopathic principle, but they have no problem in acknowledging a number of verifiable, measurable (physical and biological) properties of ultrapotencies -- but rather is more general interest in how intercellular communication occurs, and in the probability that acupuncture meridians consist of channels of clustered water, which the authors call clustered-water wires (habitually omitted hyphen inserted by me; their intent is to communicate that it’s the water that’s clustered, not the wire). In effect, the paper reports in modest terms half a dozen significant, original, rather various studies conducted on the one topic. Let me include some choice snippets to illustrate the breadth of the concepts it covers:
“The Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory was the first institution to obtain the photo of water hexamers, a particularly stable form of water cluster, using scanning tunneling microscopy [15]. Indeed, there are five isomers of water hexamers: the planar hexamers (cyclic and boat) appear to be more stable than the other threedimensional hexamers (cage and prism).”
“Water is diamagnetic and may be levitated in magnetic fields. It is also known that resonant intermolecular transfer of vibrational energy is possible in liquid water [18-19].”
“More and more reports indicate that positive ions, such as protons (H+), or negative ions, such as hydroxide ions (OH-) can be transported via the “clustered water wires”… Electron transport in Molecular Wire Junctions was also observed [28]… From the viewpoint of electrical engineering, it may be the mechanism of the biological electromagnetic field. We hypothesize that the Clustered water wire network may provide a biophysical and biochemical base for understanding the Meridian signaling transduction system.”
“According to ancient Chinese philosophy, water may contain seasonal messages, such as bio-clock information. Natural snow water, spring rain and dew were recognized to promote human health for thousands of years. Homeopathy, the western traditional medicine, also indicates that ultra-diluted water may remember the bioactivity from naturally occurring substances, such as botanicals, influencing cell signaling.”
“In 1999, a pan-European team of four independent research laboratories in France, Italy, Belgium, and Holland, led by Professor M. Roberfroid at Belgium's Catholic University of Louvain designed “blinded” experiments, using a refinement of Benveniste's original experimental model that examined another aspect of basophil activation with "ghost" dilutions of histamine against control solutions of pure water [31]… Hence, the total results over all four laboratories were positive for the ghost histamine solutions. In the last five years, more and more ultra-diluted water research indicate that certain structured waters might store physical, chemical and biological information [32-36].”
“Clustered water was provided by the inventor, Lee H. Lorenzen (Cluster Solutions Inc., Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688 (csibeverages.com ), based on the patented Microcluster Template Induction Process [9- 10]. The starting water vapor is passed across a magnetic field, treated by laser, stabilized in a special ceramic unit which yields microclustered water (5, 6, and 7 membered rings) that are collapsed around organic or inorganic complexes such as proteins, amino acids and other biological molecules. Prior to the end of the process the protein base is removed. The product is a nano-size liquid crystal that resonates at a designed and predictable low frequency. The specific frequencies of each crystalline Clustered Water solution are designed to be amplified by the cells of the human body. The original clustered water is diluted with distilled water about 106-20 times. However, unlike homeopathy, there is no “biological reversal” of function. In order to determine the optimal dilution for therapeutic applications, a magnetic resonance analyzer can be used. Based on the quality analysis report from Shin Etsu Chemical Inc. (Japan) and Associated Laboratories (USA), the testing clustered water is “extremely pure” using various analysis methods such as atomic absorption, flame photometry analysis, ion chromatography, high pressure liquid chromatography, and gas chromatography analysis. 17O-NMR analysis indicates that clustered water has a relative narrow half value of resonance frequency (74–98 HZ), comparable to melting snow water. It has a conductivity of at least 3.7 mu.s/cm, and has a surface tension of less than 61 dynes/cm.”
“Based on conventional theory it is very difficult to explain the above laboratory and clinical studies of clustered water. Indeed the testing water is an ultradiluted “water”, using distilled water to dilute the “original microclustered water”. Compared to distilled water, this “extremely pure” clustered water possesses many beneficial functions, such as anti-bacteria, antioxidant, immune stimulation, balancing of intra- and extra-cellular water metabolism, and stabilization of blood sugar level activity. The impressive characteristics of this clustered water is that the starting water vapor is passed across a magnetic field, treated by laser, stabilized with certain trace metals and templated with a low resonant frequency [9,10]. It leads us to hypothesize that clustered water may store and hold for long periods of time the frequencies needed to induce biological change. It may be this resonant frequency, which exhibits resonance with cytoplasmic water, which induces accelerated cellular water turnover, resulting in improved intracellar water levels, contributing to bio-signaling transduction functions.”
The paper is available at www.cie-gnyc.org/convention_2003/poster/pan.pdf and at http://www.nhtglobal.com/pdf/ClusterPlu ... stract.pdf .
A paper published five years after the latter in Physics Letters A [Keith Johnson, “Water buckyball terahertz vibrations in physics, chemistry, biology, and cosmology”, Physics Letters A372, 6037 (2008) >] carries on similar work and foresees applications in a range of fields, including alteration of the problematic misfolding of proteins in Alzheimer’s disease due to insufficient supply of properly clustered water.
Johnson envisages use of terahertz generators to structure water for this and other purposes. But there may be easier ways, including straightforward potentisation with a suitable starting solute.
A source on the same Martin Chaplin page as I quoted below -- that source being T. Yokono, S. Shimokawa, T. Mizuno, M. Yokono, and T. Yokokawa, "Clathrate-like ordering in liquid water induced by infrared irradiation", Jap. J. Appl. Phys. 43 (2004) L1436–L1438 -- points out that exposure to infrared light (such as sunlight contains) resulted in structuring (though in which structures, I don’t know).
Similarly, in a recently published interview by Joe Mercola, Gerald Pollack, author of The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid and Vapor, claims that polymeric water can be built by exposing it to infrared or (270 nm) UV light -- or by creating a vortex in it.
It may also be that Kangen and similar waters, given the truth of the claim of alkalinising them, are structured. I’d assumed that the Kangen machine alkalinised water by simply electrolysing it and creating hydronium (H3O+) and hydroxide (OH–) ions (in different streams). Evidently, though, H3O2 is itself alkaline; I’d imagine that the higher structures, H4O3 etc., will be too. If Kangen water is indeed alkaline, perhaps the machine achieves that by creating structure in it.
What comes through strongly in Johnson’s work is that water’s buckyball structure has many different vibrational freedoms and a great capacity to store electrical energy: some 25 times the capacity of single-molecular water, it would seem.
Though I don’t know what credence to place in Dr Pollack (perhaps not a lot if he had any say over his book’s subtitle), Mercola’s discussion of the interview contains a few interesting gems, all easier to comprehend than the gold in the original research papers. The interview, transcript, and discussion are available at >. Interestingly, Mercola notes that higher pressure on glacial melt makes for better formation of structured water, which is reminiscent of Johnson’s observation (not in his papers but in a pilot video “documentary” he put up) that the amount of structuring in water vapour is proportional to the square of the pressure on it. (Johnson too refers to clustered water as occurring in a fourth phase.) Johnson notes in his paper that atmospheric water vapour -- commonly thought of as being gaseous -- largely comprises molecular clusters (and so is not gaseous).
JH:
Since writing last, I’ve read (the transcript of) Professor Pollack’s interview with Mercola, and watched (on the LaRouche site, of all places) a detailed lecture with slides that Pollack presented somewhere on his work, and he looks like the real deal. Moreover, a recent conference paper that Del Guidice, Tedeschi, and Vitiello co-authored with the Russian water researcher Vladimir Voeikov (suggesting that the heavy hitters take him seriously), “Coherent structures in liquid water close to hydrophilic surfaces”, Journal of Physics: Conference Series 2013; 442 conference 1, >, contributes further (quantum electrodynamic, QED) explanation (which I gather rests on the ability of dissolved macromolecules to generate an electric field, aligning the water molecules) for Pollack’s findings -- findings that the paper sums up thus:
“In the last years Gerald Pollack and his coworkers [10] - [12] have reported that water adjacent to hydrophilic surfaces (interfacial water) is dynamically different from bulk water. Solutes and microspheres are excluded from this kind of interfacial water which has been termed for this reason exclusion zone (EZ) water. The depth of the layer of EZ water on the solid surface is in the order of tens and hundreds of microns, up to 500 microns. With respect to bulk water, EZ water has higer (up to tenfold) viscosity, diminished infrared emissivity, shorter spin-lattice T1 relaxation time, retarded spin-spin T2 relaxation time, as probed by N M R and smaller self- diffusion coefficient [10, 11]. All these features are compatible with the presence of coherent water as described in [1] - [4]. Actually, in a coherent system one could not touch a single molecule without touching also the other correlated molecules, so that viscosity becomes higher as well as the correlations detected by N M R, whereas self-diffusion which depends on the mutual independence of molecules is also depressed. The decrease of infrared emissivity is justified by the presence of the infrared oscillations of CDs which absorb energy in this frequency range.
EZ water is electrically charged with respect to bulk water, which is well known to be neutral. If EZ water is close to a surface bearing a net negative charge, it acquires a negative charge, too, whereas it acquires a positive charge near a surface bearing a positive charge [12]. It is interesting to observe that when EZ water becomes negatively charged near a negative surface, positive charges (protons) appear beyond EZ water on the side of the EZ layer facing bulk water. On the contrary, negative charges appear on the side of the layer facing the bulk water when EZ water is positively charged. It is also interesting to realize that no electric opposite charges have been detected in the interstice between the solid surface and the aqueous surface, suggesting that the attraction water-solid surface underlying the hydrophily of the surface is not produced by electrostatics but by a dynamic collective attraction such as the one produced by QED coherence. Like likes like, contrary to the Coulomb law of electrostatics.”
As the paper later notes,
”The so far mysterious features of EZ water have found an explanation which on the contrary cannot be found in the framework of models of water based purely on electrostatics. The attraction among like charges finds a rationale in the context of a long range many-body dynamics emerging above a critical density threshold and below a critical temperature. This result is particularly useful when we try to understand the dynamics existing in living organisms. Since no point of them is more distant than a fraction of a micron from a surface or a molecular backbone, we can safely presume that the whole of biological water is interfacial water. Therefore, all the conclusions of the present article apply to biological water. In particular, we can understand why cells, whose surface is negatively charged can attract each other giving rise to tissues.”
Pollack seems, as of the time of his lecture, to have been unaware of just how ubiquitous the affected water must be in the human organism, though perhaps it just didn’t emerge clearly.
Voeikov’s own sparse site, , holds a video of what looks like another Pollack presentation (but doesn’t play on my computer), titled “Gerald Pollack and Vladimir Voeikov”.
Aside from Martin Chaplin’s stupendous site, there’s another (relatively small) one I’ve just stumbled across too that draws together a range of research on water and may prove to yield gold:
.
Indidentally, the Chopra Foundation, I discovered just today, honours “individuals whose devotion and commitment to their passion for making discoveries in their field is matched only by their commitment to humanity” with the Spirit of Rustum Roy Award, a nice way to remember Roy. The foundation’s site says of Roy that he “held 5 professorships, 3 at Penn State and 1 each at Arizona State and the University of Arizona. He was elected to membership in 5 of the world’s major National Academies of Science/Engineering, in the U.S., Japan, Sweden, Russia and India, and “knighted” by the Emperor of Japan – making him arguably, one of the most honored materials scientist ever”.
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