Cognitive dissonace was ]Arizona SB 1175

[Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD]

Could I argue a bit, for the sake of argument, about "cognitive dissonance"?
Looking at and remembering the majority of the students who were in my class at Med School, the majority of us were there not to make big $$ but in order to help and relieve: no cognition there, but certainly no dissonance.
The first years of study are based on understanding how the body and mind works, reacts and gets unbalanced/diseased: there should not be any cognitive dissonance here
Then comes the chasm: how to address it. What has very much changed since my time is the appearance of a knee-jerk reflex of 1: suppressing the annoying symptoms and 2: NOT trying to find out the why and the how of the actual pathology
If point 2 is restored, then point 1 become moot
One of the big PR failures of the "homeopathic politicians" was/is to focus on the differences and not on the commonalities, not as a wide campaign, but more on a one on one, grassroot professional approach.
It is not easy, but is is feasible, with the first step being to send reports to the GPs/specialists when one of their patients is cured/ameliorated by our methods, with some kind of explanation. It does not matter if they laugh, throw it out, whatever, keep it coming....Chinese torture
The results: more GPs, around here at least, do say to their patients,"well, we are somehow stuck here, maybe you should consider seeing a homeopath/herbalist/naturopath"....they do not yet dare sending a referral letter, but there is a trickle......
Of course, our situation, legal, historical and practical is very different in NZ.
But my point is: do not discard the ability to open the eyes of others, if done properly.
Joe.
 
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com

[Tanya Marquette]

Hey Joe,
There is no argument about cognitive dissonance--it is a social science concept and I applied
it to the experience that exists with too many medical people when it comes to homeopathy.
As to your experience in med school on the other side of the world I have nothing to say since
I have no direct experience.
Allopathic medicine developed as a 'control and conquer' approach to symptoms and as such
the drug industry saw and utilized and promoted this approach with their selling drugs and creating
their so-called 'wars' against physical conditions; ie, the war on cancer. They
Could I argue a bit, for the sake of argument, about "cognitive dissonance"?
Looking at and remembering the majority of the students who were in my class at Med School, the majority of us were there not to make big $$ but in order to help and relieve: no cognition there, but certainly no dissonance.
The first years of study are based on understanding how the body and mind works, reacts and gets unbalanced/diseased: there should not be any cognitive dissonance here
Then comes the chasm: how to address it. What has very much changed since my time is the appearance of a knee-jerk reflex of 1: suppressing the annoying symptoms and 2: NOT trying to find out the why and the how of the actual pathology
If point 2 is restored, then point 1 become moot
One of the big PR failures of the "homeopathic politicians" was/is to focus on the differences and not on the commonalities, not as a wide campaign, but more on a one on one, grassroot professional approach.
It is not easy, but is is feasible, with the first step being to send reports to the GPs/specialists when one of their patients is cured/ameliorated by our methods, with some kind of explanation. It does not matter if they laugh, throw it out, whatever, keep it coming....Chinese torture
The results: more GPs, around here at least, do say to their patients,"well, we are somehow stuck here, maybe you should consider seeing a homeopath/herbalist/naturopath"....they do not yet dare sending a referral letter, but there is a trickle......
Of course, our situation, legal, historical and practical is very different in NZ.
But my point is: do not discard the ability to open the eyes of others, if done properly.
Joe.
??? ???
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com

[Tanya Marquette]

once again, sorry for the aborted post:
Could I argue a bit, for the sake of argument, about "cognitive dissonance"?
Looking at and remembering the majority of the students who were in my class at Med School, the majority of us were there not to make big $$ but in order to help and relieve: no cognition there, but certainly no dissonance.
The first years of study are based on understanding how the body and mind works, reacts and gets unbalanced/diseased: there should not be any cognitive dissonance here
Then comes the chasm: how to address it. What has very much changed since my time is the appearance of a knee-jerk reflex of 1: suppressing the annoying symptoms and 2: NOT trying to find out the why and the how of the actual pathology
If point 2 is restored, then point 1 become moot
One of the big PR failures of the "homeopathic politicians" was/is to focus on the differences and not on the commonalities, not as a wide campaign, but more on a one on one, grassroot professional approach.
It is not easy, but is is feasible, with the first step being to send reports to the GPs/specialists when one of their patients is cured/ameliorated by our methods, with some kind of explanation. It does not matter if they laugh, throw it out, whatever, keep it coming....Chinese torture
The results: more GPs, around here at least, do say to their patients,"well, we are somehow stuck here, maybe you should consider seeing a homeopath/herbalist/naturopath"....they do not yet dare sending a referral letter, but there is a trickle......
Of course, our situation, legal, historical and practical is very different in NZ.
But my point is: do not discard the ability to open the eyes of others, if done properly.
Joe.
??? ???
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com

[Fran Sheffield]

Hi Joe,

This is not to bag doctors and I don't know if it is the same elsewhere as here but after having the opportunity recently to accompany relatives to their medical appointments (specialist and generalist) if have been amazed at how unimportant the patient narrative has become.

I don't know if it has always been like this and that now, being into homeopathy where symptoms and causation are everything, it is just more obvious to me but I repeatedly witnessed total disregard for what my relatives were experiencing - they were either ignored or interrupted when they tried to tell their story and the doctor was more interested in telling them what was wrong with them and what he or she would do about it.

All that mattered was what any investigative tests showed and all treatment decisions were based on these - decisions that were inappropriate and would have been very different if they had only asked a few questions or listened to what my relatives wanted to tell them.

If I tried to pleasantly speak on behalf of my relativs, having a little more medical knowledge, there was either irritation or showing us the way to the door with a smile on the face but comments about how busy they were and that surely we could see that their waiting room was full.

Do doctors realise how impoverished they have become in the practice of helping people heal? Surely in the past, when investigative tests were not available, the patient narrative played a much greater role in deciding how to treat? As on relative said to me, "I went there looking for a particular service, said what I was looking for but my request was ignored and I was given something I didn't want and then had to pay for it - I came away worse than I went in".

It is so frustrating. One relative is now on a number of toxic medications for a problem that, if his story had not been ignored, would have been treated surgically (as the reason for his problem is different to the norm) but the surgeon refused to listen to how the problem began and is insisting that this approach be used first. In the meantime, this relative is becoming sicker, both from the problem and now the medications. And because these doctors are the keyholders to the gate (other more appropriate treatment or investigations) my relatives have to stick with them.

The arrogance and sometimes the incompetence is astounding. The whole system sucks at the moment. I think altruistic students end up in an impoverished system and just get taken over by it.

Fran.
Could I argue a bit, for the sake of argument, about "cognitive dissonance"?
Looking at and remembering the majority of the students who were in my class at Med School, the majority of us were there not to make big $$ but in order to help and relieve: no cognition there, but certainly no dissonance.
The first years of study are based on understanding how the body and mind works, reacts and gets unbalanced/diseased: there should not be any cognitive dissonance here
Then comes the chasm: how to address it. What has very much changed since my time is the appearance of a knee-jerk reflex of 1: suppressing the annoying symptoms and 2: NOT trying to find out the why and the how of the actual pathology
If point 2 is restored, then point 1 become moot
One of the big PR failures of the "homeopathic politicians" was/is to focus on the differences and not on the commonalities, not as a wide campaign, but more on a one on one, grassroot professional approach.
It is not easy, but is is feasible, with the first step being to send reports to the GPs/specialists when one of their patients is cured/ameliorated by our methods, with some kind of explanation. It does not matter if they laugh, throw it out, whatever, keep it coming....Chinese torture
The results: more GPs, around here at least, do say to their patients,"well, we are somehow stuck here, maybe you should consider seeing a homeopath/herbalist/naturopath"....they do not yet dare sending a referral letter, but there is a trickle......
Of course, our situation, legal, historical and practical is very different in NZ.
But my point is: do not discard the ability to open the eyes of others, if done properly.
Joe.
 
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com

[Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD]

So what do we do?
We take over the treatment, as the patient, at least over here, has the right to decide, then we put their nose in it.
Repeated enough times, it will have an effect..........I hope.....
Joe.
 
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com

[Shannon Nelson]

Yay to that one--find the *common ground* and build on that!!
Could I argue a bit, for the sake of argument, about "cognitive dissonance"?
Looking at and remembering the majority of the students who were in my class at Med School, the majority of us were there not to make big $$ but in order to help and relieve: no cognition there, but certainly no dissonance.
The first years of study are based on understanding how the body and mind works, reacts and gets unbalanced/diseased: there should not be any cognitive dissonance here
Then comes the chasm: how to address it. What has very much changed since my time is the appearance of a knee-jerk reflex of 1: suppressing the annoying symptoms and 2: NOT trying to find out the why and the how of the actual pathology
If point 2 is restored, then point 1 become moot
One of the big PR failures of the "homeopathic politicians" was/is to focus on the differences and not on the commonalities, not as a wide campaign, but more on a one on one, grassroot professional approach.
It is not easy, but is is feasible, with the first step being to send reports to the GPs/specialists when one of their patients is cured/ameliorated by our methods, with some kind of explanation. It does not matter if they laugh, throw it out, whatever, keep it coming....Chinese torture
The results: more GPs, around here at least, do say to their patients,"well, we are somehow stuck here, maybe you should consider seeing a homeopath/herbalist/naturopath"....they do not yet dare sending a referral letter, but there is a trickle......
Of course, our situation, legal, historical and practical is very different in NZ.
But my point is: do not discard the ability to open the eyes of others, if done properly.
Joe.
 
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com

[Tanya Marquette]

Simply put the whole system sucks. We can get into the hows and whys and wherefores
of the system and provide an encyclopedia of details. However, both you and Fran pose
a couple of salient points. First is the time constraint that is put on the medical interview.
In the US doctors are told they have 7" to interview a patient and decide what to do with him/her.
It is inefficient to take longer they are told and the practice is not making enough money to cover
all the costs plus the lucrative income of the doctor.
Second, relative to what I previously addressedm it the drug bases of the system. Where at one
time evidence included a patient's story as well as clinical experience, today evidence has become
defined only in terms of tests and laboratory experiments called studies. Today we also have the
computer which can do projections of results in the population as well as anticipated income. I forget
the many who defined the layers of evidence. It is a model presumably accepted and used but not
really as the patient and clinical data is ignored and even denied. This denial is particularly
and obnoxiously employed when it comes to homeopathy and other holistic protocols.
Fran, your experience is so typical as to make one want to tear at them.
I know we are not supposed to discourage people from seeing these goons, but I find as many
ways to encourage people to empower themselves in researching their health issues. And if
they do go to a medical practitioner (or maybe they should be called drug distributors), I try
to prepare them to hold their own in that situation. I even encourage them to never see a doctor
without a strong advocate with them. When sick, one is stressed and often cannot fend well for
themselves,
tanya
So what do we do?
We take over the treatment, as the patient, at least over here, has the right to decide, then we put their nose in it.
Repeated enough times, it will have an effect..........I hope.....
Joe.
??? ???
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com

[Dale Moss]

What we as homeopaths do is one thing -- and I think your idea of sending reports to the docs on Pxs who have been cured by homeopathy is a great idea.
But what the Pxs themselves do, or should do, is another. Years ago I refused to pay a dr. who rendered what I thought was unconscionably poor service. More recently I've urged my mother to report the dr. who failed to monitor her heart meds. I've routinely urged kidney patients who have questions about their nephrologists' competence (or ethics) to vote with their feet.
Now, however, I think Pxs need to take responsibility for voicing their dissatisfaction. You don't like the way the dr. treated you, felt he disrespected you and your needs? Put it in writing, with a copy to him and the local medical society. If enough Pxs complain about the service, the docs may realized just how dissatisfied people are with the poor quality of their performance.
Peace,
Dale
So what do we do?
We take over the treatment, as the patient, at least over here, has the right to decide, then we put their nose in it.
Repeated enough times, it will have an effect..........I hope.....
Joe.
 
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com

[Tanya Marquette]

While I agree in principle with your idea, getting px to do this is very difficult.
First there is the cognitive dissonance (there is that phrase again) between the
belief in the honesty, caring, and knowledge of the doctor and the reality of the
treatment meted out. And that is a big one.
Then there is the fear of confronting the doctor. Now we get into the codependency
that has been created betw the medical profession and the px. There is a real fear
and anxiety about how the doctor will react. There are fears/anxiety about confronting
the authority figure who can really be an abuser. The smiles disappear, the px is
yelled at, threatened, insulted, patronized and even thrown out unceremoniously.
It is a common reaction these years to bluntly tell a px who is even milding critical
or questioning that they can go elsewhere if they don't like the treatment. This is
abusive behavior and is based heavily on the power relationship that exists between
and authority figure and a person who is in need. I can write an entire book on this.
Actually a social worker did, but was too mealy mouthed for me.
Then there is the real issue that a person who feels in need of some health care, is
often not in a position to walk out and complain and find a new physician. Particularly
in the USA where all health insurance is limited to use with certain practitioners. If
you are dealing with a medical specialty there may not even be an alternative in
100 miles to seek out.
So, yes, people need to find their back bone and demand better care and treatment,
but the situation is not so easy.
Today I had a go around with a friend who took the position that people do not have
alternatives because we are not organized and people don't know how to find us. Nor
do we have our evidentiary ducks in a row to create a comfort zone for people to want
to find us.
There was truth in this. His position accepted the nature of the american public as
limited in their independence and personal responsibility to educate themselves before
becoming an emergency. He also made excuses for people's limited time to do this.
But without this kind of public educating and public accessibility it will be very hard to create the kind
of independence that you suggest. We have our challenges cut out for us.
tanya
So what do we do?
We take over the treatment, as the patient, at least over here, has the right to decide, then we put their nose in it.
Repeated enough times, it will have an effect..........I hope.....
Joe.
??? ???
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com

[Sheri Nakken]

and one of my pet peeves is homeopaths don't have anyone to share night and weekend call.
They just aren't available, forcing people to ERs or other allopaths
OR they are available all the time, as I am - which leads to burn out.
Sheri

At 03:35 PM 3/23/2011, you wrote:
Sheri Nakken, former R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
http://homeopathycures.wordpress.com/ & http://vaccinationdangers.wordpress.com/
ONLINE/Email classes in Homeopathy; Vaccine Dangers; Childhood Diseases
Next classes start Friday February 11 & March 4