Viruses are NOT alive

[Sheri Nakken]

http://serc.carleton.edu/microbelife/ye ... slive.html
http://www.beyondbooks.com/lif72/2c.asp

http://www.oralchelation.com/viewpoint/ ... ticle2.htm
"

They see a sick cell, notice a virus in it, and foolishly assume that this virus is the cause of the sickness in the cell. Rather they should look in the other direction -- in the direction of the virus being the effect of sickness within the cell.
what if they are there for a reason?
what if they are doing a job we have no clue about?
what if they are messengers from one cell to another? Kill the messenger.
------------------------------------------
Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccine.htm & http://www.wellwithin1.com/homeo.htm
ONLINE/Email classes in Homeopathy; Vaccine Dangers; Childhood Diseases Reality
Next classes start May 20 & 21

[Shannon Nelson]

Some people feel that no medicine should be given, because the person's
karma will be best served by letting any illness play itself out--even
if to death. Within *that* context it would make sense to view
pathogens as simply messengers...

[Irene de Villiers]

Jehovah Witnesses in South Africa believed that, and a girl who went
to school with me, (she was a boarder at the school) suffered a
horrible death that affected all of us watching helplessly - from
tonsillitis at age 13.
If those are messengers, they tell me to get off my duff and do
something

......Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Sheri Nakken]

At 04:18 PM 6/2/2009, you wrote:
#1 - the subject line says viruses are NOT alive.
Do you dispute that?

You have land that becomes swampy and the water is stagnant.
Mosquitos come - do they cause the swamp?

Why does the same virus present cause nothing in so many.

Viruses are not alive.
Sheri
------------------------------------------
Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccine.htm & http://www.wellwithin1.com/homeo.htm
ONLINE/Email classes in Homeopathy; Vaccine Dangers; Childhood Diseases Reality
Next classes start May 20 & 21

[Hennie Duits]

It is not too difficult to argue that a stone is just as alive as is the
sun, a water molecule, a virus etc. The thea leaves are sort of alive in
the thea that I drink.
New insight: 'dead' could very well be nonexistent in this universe

Hennie

Sheri Nakken schreef:

[Sheri Nakken]

http://www.fearoftheinvisible.com/poisonvirus

Poisoned cells make Viruses
View Comments
Written by Janine Roberts
Friday, 22 August 2008 23:05

from the final chapter of Fear of the invisible..
The Nature of Viruses
There are some basic facts about viruses all biologists agree on.

Viruses have no metabolism so they cannot produce energy or eat. They have no nervous system, no sensory system, no intelligence that can facilitate any kind of invasion or hi-jacking of a cell a billion times larger.

But, the conventional theory of viral hijacking is that, after the short genetic code of a virus has been absorbed by a cell, the ?viral genes' absorbed start to ?direct the production of proteins by the host cellular machinery.' It is assumed they are able to force the host cell to do this, It is said they force the cell to assemble proteins into a shell or ?capsid,' to insert into this a clone of the original viral genetic code and then to launch it out of the cell by using the same machinery that the cell uses to harmlessly produce its own exosomes and other extra-cellular particles or vesicles.

But I had to ask, would cells give such minute and ?dead' messenger vesicle the extraordinary ability to pirate vastly larger and intelligent cells - including cells of the same organism? This is the quandary we are left with if we agree that viruses are not alive and thus incapable of having a survival instinct.

But what if cells create viruses as weapons - against other cells? If they do, then this would be remarkably suicidal as viruses usually pass from cell to cell within the same organism.

Such thoughts have left me deeply puzzled about the many pathogenic viruses reported to exist. I have severe doubts about some of these, particularly the poliovirus and HIV. I would have to look again at the evidence on other viruses.
VIRAL ILLNESSES
Viruses are commonly blamed for illnesses that seem easily passed from one person to another. Bacteria may cause many of these - but viruses are often blamed. Our only medical weapons against them are said to be vaccination and powerful chemotherapy-type antiviral medicines designed to stop the cell from making viruses, rather than to attack the virus itself, for apparently it has proved too elusive a target.

But, why do cells make pathogenic viruses? Surely the reason for this has been established in numerous laboratory experiments? It is a doctrine in virology that cells make malignant viruses only after a disease virus arrives and infects them.

I had long presumed this must be so, but when I tried to analyse it, I had problems. I found myself asking, since a virus cannot make a virus, surely the first viruses to cause an illness must have been made by an uninfected cell?

I had earlier learnt how viruses did their damage. I had been told that they burst forth from infected cells, ?exploding' them. I was now surprised to discover that this is not so; that viruses are far too small, at one-billionth of the mass of a cell, to have this effect.

Current courses on Medical Microbiology now teach, as mentioned briefly above, that viruses kill or damage cells indirectly, by triggering cellular processes that do this damage. Professor Tritz blames allergic reactions. ?With animal viruses, cell lyses [death] is usually the result of one of four types of allergic reactions' and ?allergy to viruses usually results in a very localized anaphylactic reaction.' Alternatively, he suggests that the immune system sees the virus-producing cell as foreign and kills it.

He also suggests that some illnesses are due to ?toxic substances' produced by cells because they are infected. ?Virus-infected cells, at times, will produce compounds coded for by the host DNA, but which are not normally produced by the host. These are often cytotoxic at relatively high concentrations.' Finally, some viruses might cause ?structural alterations in the host cell', affecting the chromosomes, moving the nucleus or creating bubble-like spaces, but so far I have been unable to locate experiments that prove viruses operating in isolation can cause such effects.

Another university course teaches, ?virus infected cells may be recognized by the immune system, which leads to the destruction of the virus infected cells.'

From what they say, cell deaths are not directly due to viral infection. This perhaps makes sense. The virus is so minute compared to the cell - and our protective systems will destroy a very sick cell that does not self-destruct. Our cells often seem altruistically to decide to die when not needed, poisoned or otherwise diseased.

But on reflection, how can we prove cell's illness is caused by the small viral genetic code it's absorbed? How can we be sure that a damaged cell is so solely because it is infected? It may be naturally dying or poisoned. It may even produce viral-like particles for waste disposal, or to attempt a cure or help protect other cells.

Also, if cell deaths in viral illnesses are mostly caused by our immune system, why do we have such deaths when the immune system is down, as surely it often is in such circumstances?

But nevertheless, viruses are encoded information, and since cells can make errors, I must conclude that they may sometimes wrongly encode the viruses they send out. These in theory could misinform other cells, perhaps sometimes encouraging them to take courses of action that they would not take otherwise. But as to how often the codes thus transported could lead to such effects, I had no idea.

I went to consult a standard textbook, ?Introduction to Modern Virology' by N. Dimmock and S. Primrose, published by Blackwell Scientific Publications.

On page 230 I found it surprisingly reported that, although people have presumed that flu is spread by coughing, ?transmission experiments from people infected with a rhinovirus to susceptibles sitting opposite at a table proved singularly unsuccessful. Equally unsuccessful was the transmission of influenza from a naturally infected husband/wife to his/her spouse.'

Also on the same page it reported: ?it has been shown that recently bereaved people are susceptible to infectious diseases. Thus one's resistance is influenced by one's state of mind.' It then went on to discuss winter life styles; such as living crowded in unventilated and over-heated rooms, all things it says might make us produce the symptoms of illness - and all things that make cells ill without any need of help from viruses.
It then concluded on page 212: ?Evidently viruses do not kill cells by any one simple process and we are far from understanding the complex mechanisms involved ...[it] seem more akin to death by slow starvation than acute poisoning. Lastly it is by no means clear what advantage accrues to the virus in killing its host cell. This situation may represent a poorly evolved virus-cell relationship or virus in the ?wrong' host cell.'

It thus seems that cells may be sick, poisoned, stressed or malnourished in some way before they show the symptoms of ?viral infection.' There is a considerable body of research that indicates cellular illness or malnourishment often precedes the production of viruses, rather than the converse. For example: it is reported that deficiency in selenium, a metal our cells use as an antioxidant, can precede the symptoms of colds, flu and even AIDS. (There is also a strong co-relation between selenium levels in soils in African countries and the prevalence of AIDS symptoms. )

Dr Melinda Beck reported that selenium-deficient mouse cells show symptoms of illness and emit viruses. She and her co-authors deduced from this that a lack of selenium made viruses dangerous - and consequently that these viruses made the cells ill. But was this deduction soundly based? Selenium is a component of glutathione peroxidase (GPX), an enzyme that protects cells from oxidative stress. Selenium-deficiency thus makes cells ill with oxidative stress without any need for a viral illness. They consequently could produce viral-like particles as waste or for repair purposes.

Another research paper reported that, when cells are suffering from ?oxidative DNA damage' (such as from chemotherapy), then they are more likely to get hepatitis due to HCV viral infections. Again, what comes first? The authors presume the virus must cause the illness - but surely the illness started with the earlier oxidative stress.

The first observation of retroviruses is credited to Peyton Rous. ?It is generally accepted that Peyton Rous discovered retroviruses in 1911 when he induced malignancy in chickens by injections of cell-free filtrates obtained from a muscle tumour.' But, when I went back to his records, I found that he also suggested that the cause of his chickens' illness might be a chemical toxin in his filtrate! If retroviruses were indeed also present, might they have appeared as a defence against this toxin?

In earlier chapters we found that toxins, rather than viruses, are likely to be the primary causes of polio and AIDS - but what then about measles, mumps, flu and colds?

I had long presumed the evidence for these illnesses being due solely to viral infection must be overwhelming - but I have found to my surprise that scientists have long known that the guaranteed way to make cells produce viruses in the laboratory, including flu and measles virus, is not primarily by getting them infected, but by exposing them to stress and toxins!

In 1928 the President of the Royal Society of Medicine's Pathology Section, A. E. Boycott, in a report on the ?nature of filterable viruses,' stated that with toxins ?we can with a considerable degree of certainty stimulate normal tissues to produce viruses.'

Then in 1963 the famous Sloan-Kettering Institute for Cancer Research reported that viruses multiplied after cells were exposed to ?x-ray, ultraviolet light or certain mutagenic chemicals' and that this exposure seemed to ?alter the benign relationship' that otherwise existed between cells and bacteria.

Then in the 1980s Robert Gallo reported that, when he added certain chemicals to cell cultures, these cells produced retroviruses. Gallo thus named these chemicals his viral ?growth factor' - and Montagnier at the Institut Pasteur used the same. If retroviruses were indeed thus produced, then surely this can be explained as a cellular response to stress from toxins?

In 2007 Dr Dominic Dwyer, a Senior Medical Virologist, formerly of the Institut Pasteur in Paris, testified that to persuade blood cells to produced HIV retroviruses, ?we stimulate them with compounds such as PHA.' He added; if we want to persuade cells to produce the flu virus ?we use other things like tryspin.' - thus that they expose cells to different chemicals to make them produce different viruses! (Tryspin is destructive to proteins, and Phytohemagglutinin (PHA) is mitogenic. ) This surely suggests that virus production can be a cell's response to being stressed and poisoned - and that there might thus be no need for it to be infected beforehand?

Dr David Gordon, the Chair of the Clinical Drug Trials Committee at Finders University in Australia, testified, at the 2007 Parenzee trial in Australia, that there is no need to ?purify a virus in order to identify it'. He repeated emphatically: ?No need to purify' then rhetorically questioned: ?Has any virus ever been purified?' He explained: ?The issues are exactly the same with any virus.' He doubted if any virus was ever isolated from sick cells. It seemed that a cellular illness was all the proof he needed to conclude that unseen viruses were present - no matter how artificial the laboratory circumstances or what chemicals were added.
So - viruses may not be the primary causes of illnesses - they might instead be caused by a cell being poisoned. Why do our cells make them? Could they be possibly a protective reaction ?
more on this in the book
------------------------------------------
Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccine.htm & http://www.wellwithin1.com/homeo.htm
ONLINE/Email classes in Homeopathy; Vaccine Dangers; Childhood Diseases Reality
Next classes start May 20 & 21

[Irene de Villiers]

yes.
They have gene code and do stuff with it.
In my book that makes them alive.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

I am a biologist and I do not agree. So your assertion is incorrect.
They do use energy to latch onto cells they infect.
They also manufacture more virus which uses up energy (which they
have the ability to steal AND use.)
They do. It is not the same as ours but it works for them to locate a
cell to infect. they attack to it. They clold nlot do that if they
cold not locate a cell - they'd swim by instead.
Also untrue. They detect a cell and attach. So they do "sense" a cell.
They use a different method than we do (so do flies, plants that
climb and other life forms, lots of variation in how it is done, but
we ALlL sense things)
on the contrary they have an excellent ability to invade and hi-jack.
And if you disbelieve it all you need to do is look down a powerful
microscope and watch it dong so (which I have done)

........Irene

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Hennie Duits]

Stricktly speaking, I’d say that anything declared as ‘dead’ (would that
be the same as ‘not alive’?) has no interaction whatsoever with anything
else, and as such, could just as well be nonexistent. One could say that
the Monsanto Roundup is ‘not alive’, but Roundup has a very distinct
influence, regardless of the fact that one could declare it as ‘alive’
or ‘not alive’. Radiation (like Tsjernobyl) may be consirered as ‘not
alive’, but it does kill. So maybe the distinction between ‘alive’ or
‘not alive’ isn’t a very useful one, unless defined *very* precisely.

Hennie

Sheri Nakken schreef:

[Sheri Nakken]

At 06:36 PM 6/2/2009, you wrote:
good points

But so much referring to viruses refers to them being alive and actually making decisions
Kill the virus with antivirals

So is a virus like roundup or radiation?

Are there friendly viruses?
Do they do positive things?

What if we don't really understand them (now that's a shock - like we understand the human body and the immune system - right)
What if they are the result and not the cause
from another list discussion
1. This is the evul viron, seeking a good host. No, not a site-hosting company . A host is a living organism in which a parasite (such as a virus) can live, and eat from.
2. The ship has landed. The virus now clamps it's little clawlike tentacles into little tentacles on the outside of your cell to get a good grip for the next phase.
3. In this phase the viron pushes itself through the membrane of the cell with brute force, and injects it's DNA into your cell (a viron can also contain only RNA, but for the sake of simplicity, we'll keep to DNA). Notice that the other viron, the on the right, just uses a sort of needle.
4-5. The DNA reaches the core of the cell and infiltrates it. In this core lies the most important part of the cell: your DNA. The viron's DNA pushes itself between yours and assumes control over the cell. It starts redirecting everything in the cell: it orders the cell to make new virons. Many new virons.
6. After a while, there is no space left for the new virons to go, but they keep coming, so eventually, the cell bursts open, and the young virons are cast out into the cruel world to go find a new host.

Not a nice scene now is it?

Next: the symptoms of life. If a supposed organism shows these signs, it's alive. So they say.

These 7 signs are as follows:
Theme #1 - Cells
From Dictionary.com:

Biology. The smallest structural unit of an organism that is capable of independent functioning, consisting of one or more nuclei, cytoplasm, and various organelles, all surrounded by a semipermeable cell membrane.

Here we come across the first flaw. It says: ...capable of independent functioning... which is not the case with a virus. He has to use a host-cell in order to do things like a normal cell.

Theme#2 - Organization

This means to say that living organisms have a basic structure. Like an energy provider, a command centre, etc.

This is partly true with a viron. They have a nuclei (the core, containing DNA), but nothing else. So there is only a commando centre. So well, they are organised, as one big structure.

Theme#3 - Energy Use

'Living matter acquires matter and energy from the external environment and converts it into different forms.'

ripped from Oceans Online.

Well, this certainly is a DON'T. That exactly why viruses need hostcells, they can't make energy for themselves.

Theme#4 - Homeostasis

'Living matter maintains some type of homeostasis.'

This one is universally accepted. Homeostasis is the property of an open system, especially living organisms, to regulate its internal environment so as to maintain a stable condition. Well, this one we can also cross out on our list. As a matter of fact, a viron has a very minimalistic internal environment.

Theme#5 - Growth

Does a virus grow? Well, if you see a car being built -piece by piece is being put on- and consider that the 'growth' of the car to adulthood, then yes, a viron can grow. But as I see it virons are mainly assembled.

Theme#6 - Reproduction

'Living matter reproduces and passes on genetic material as a blueprint for growth and subsequent reproduction'

Well these babies produce allright. They produce so well we are being killed in the process.

Theme#7 - Evolution

'Living matter evolves.'

Yes, a virus can evolve. Look at the recent 'SARS'. Or influenza, to stay closer at home (influenza = flu, your average home-garden-kitchen virus). SARS originally only affected pigs and animals of the like, until it evolved slightly and could acces humans. And Influenza shows signs that they are becoming more and more resistant to anibiotics, the big medicine that stopped great influenza epidemics. So yes, a virus can certainly evolve.

Lacking 4 of the 7 needed signs, I'd say that it is not really alive. But then again, the most important of these characteristics of life are containing DNA and evolving, in which viruses excellently succeed.

If I had to put it in my own words:
Virons are like zombies are to men. Not with a free will, not with the capability to make food for itself, and needing a host (like a human) to survive, but still with the few vital signs of life.

NOTE: zombies need to eat human flesh in order to 'stay alive'. (Never really figured out why )

Terms:
Viron: A microscopic object consisting out of an outer membrane, an inner membrane and a core with DNA/RNA
Virus: A collective noun for a specific group of virons.
DNA: A long spiralled string of specific proteins that is the blueprint of your body. It describes exactly how you look and what kind of curve your nose has. It is in every cell of your body. If you could take one DNA-string out of a cell and stretch it out, it would be around 2 metres in length (6.6 feet). Surprising, no ?
RNA: Similar to DNA, but not quite the same. It is also a a string of proteins, but one of the main functions of RNA is to copy genetic information from DNA and then translate it into proteins. In virons it is like a copy of DNA that never existed.

URLS:
Physics forum
Wikipedia
And some other site I couldn't remember

Hope this makes maybe somewhat clearer, plenty to debate still!

Qop
Comment/Reply (w/o sign-up)

Haydn
http://www.astahost.com/info.php/Viruse ... t4368.html

------------------------------------------
Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccine.htm & http://www.wellwithin1.com/homeo.htm
ONLINE/Email classes in Homeopathy; Vaccine Dangers; Childhood Diseases Reality
Next classes start May 20 & 21