Page 3 of 6

Re: potentized vaccin/ homeopathy or isopathy

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:20 am
by Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
Why did you use saliva?
A swab of the gums might have been effective..........

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"

Re: potentized vaccin/ homeopathy or isopathy

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:44 am
by Chua Ching Yee
on 12/11/03 10:59 am, Feras Hakkak at f_hakkak@yahoo.com wrote:

Not quite to the point but on a similar note: I had my saliva made into a
remedy by a Mora machine when I had a gum infection. It had no effect.
Finally, good old Arsenicum cured.

Ching Yee

Re: potentized vaccin/ homeopathy or isopathy

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:20 am
by Farbod Rahnamai
Dear Shannon
As a homeopath we are able to evaluate different treatment. For example when
a western medical doctor give his constipated patient a laxative you can say
that the disease which would be produced by this laxative in healthy person
(diarrhea) is revers to the patients picture of disease. Then you call this
method as antipathy. This treatment may happen when a homeopath use
potentized remedy not fit to the picture of the disease but the reverse pic,
and we call this one also antipathy. For example if a physician uses
potentized Digitalis for a patient with high puls rate it is antipathy
although the remedy has been provided from homeopathic farmacy. Then it is
not related to potentization or crudeness of a remedy. It depends on the
picture which remedy is capable to produce in healthy person. (And im sure
that you know these).Thus according to organon:

If the picture of the artificial disease by a remedy (potentized or crude,
no difference) is reverse to natural disease this treatment is antipathy.
If the picture of the artificial disease by a remedy (potentized or crude,
no difference) is similar to natural disease this treatment is homeopathy.
If the picture of the artificial disease by a remedy (potentized or crude,
no difference) is totaly different to natural disease this treatment is
antipathy.
If the picture of the artificial disease by a remedy (potentized or crude,
no difference) is the same as natural disease this treatment is isopathy.

According to what we know about vital foce, isopathy is not capable to
stimulate vital force and thus it has no effect.

Now, if in the case of vaccinosis same potentized vaccine is capable to
cure, it means this method is not isopathy. We should think about what
happens in real cases. If using potentized vaccin in cases of vaccinosis is
efficient it means that we should consider on the picture of the seccond
disease not as the same disease, but may be similar, reverse or different
disease.

Please let me know if it is clear or not.

Farbod

Re: potentized vaccin/ homeopathy or isopathy

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 12:21 pm
by Chua Ching Yee
That's what the Mora therapist suggested using!

C
on 12/11/03 12:21 pm, Dr.J Rozencwajg at jroz@ihug.co.nz wrote:

Re: potentized vaccin/ homeopathy or isopathy

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 12:58 pm
by Feras Hakkak
Dear Farbod,
You wrote:
"If the picture of the artificial disease by a remedy (potentized or crude, no difference) is the same as natural disease this treatment is isopathy.
According to what we know about vital foce, isopathy is not capable to stimulate vital force and thus it has no effect."
1- Would you explain why and from which source you say "isopathy is not capable to stimulate vital force"?
2- So you mean if a remedy is %100 simillimum it will not cure? As I understand %100 similarity means being the same.
Regards,
Feras
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: potentized vaccin/ homeopathy or isopathy

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:30 pm
by Shannon Nelson
Thankyou, Farbod --
Clear up until the ending part, when you differentiate between "same
picture" vs. "similar picture", and say that if a vaccine noside works, then
it is not isopathic but homeopathic, and that isopathy *by definition* does
not work.

I think the basis of my disagreement with what you've written below is
simply semantics, the definition of "isopathy". Certainly a vaccine damaged
patient will not be helped by being given another vaccination (and I guess
you are saying that this is what would truly be isopathy), but that is not
the way in which the word is used and intended. Many words' definitions
have come to be different from what would be expected purely from linguistic
analysis of the word.

"Isopathy", as the word is used within our community, simply means that the
substance is potentized and given *purely* because it is presumed to be the
offending/ problem causing substance, irrespective of symptom pictures.
This is the *definition* of isopathy, as I understand it.

The symptom picture of an *individual* suffering from poisoning, toxicity,
or other bad reaction, is usually not exactly the same as the proving
picture of the substance, which translates to the observation that a person
poisoned by e.g. mercury will usually present a totality picture more
similar to another remedy other than mercurius. Not always; if the totality
is mercurius, then mercurius is homoepathic prescription, not isopathic.
But if mercurius is given purely on basis of presumed cause, then the
prescription is (called) isopathic. Similarly with vaccine damage.
Experience seems to be that (what is called) an isopathic prescription is
often helpful and sometimes necessary (i.e. "it works"), but in itself does
not usually bring about the same depth of cure as simillimum.

Interested in your thoughts!

Shannon
on 11/12/03 1:12 AM, Farbod Rahnamai at frahnama@homeopathyiran.com wrote:

Re: potentized vaccin/ homeopathy or isopathy

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:21 pm
by Nader Moradi
Dear Feras,
As I understood, ISO-Pathy means the same pathology,as Farbod said before it
can not cure,because this the FV that cures not the remedy,therefor if FV
couln't restore its derangment cause by primary natural disease then same
pathology can not induce a proper secondary action in VF.
When a potentized remey prepared from patient blood or saliva or othe
secrection of the patient ( usually we call this" ISO-Pathy method")can cure
the patient,this means that it can cure in Homepathic way not ISOPATHY,The
only problem in this situation is that the remdy can be a partial simillimum
and produce accessory symptom which can block case improvemnt if the remedy
is not close enough to the center.

Kind Regards,
Nader

Re: potentized vaccin/ homeopathy or isopathy

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 6:14 pm
by Wendy Howard
Julian wrote:

I've got a problem with this viewpoint. There are elements of it that just
don't feel right. The reason it doesn't is this presumption of imperfection
and absence of intelligence on the part of the dynamis (though it does
depend on how you define intelligence). If you make that presumption, then
the rest is logical, even if it ignores a lot of relevant and conflicting
data. But the presumption itself is questionable.

If you start from the opposite presumption -- that the dynamis is perfect
and capable of demonstrating some form of intelligence -- then a whole
different perspective is possible, which is just as consistent with evidence
and experience (more so, to my way of thinking).

The life force, the consciousness (as distinct from awareness), that
pervades us all -- makes the difference between a living body and a dead
one -- is just that. The life force. And although you can point to its
different qualities, it remains an indivisible whole which permeates the
entire organism. We see the same patterns pervading the mental, emotional
and physical realms of our patients, even echoing out into the events of
their lives. Since we are intelligent, articulate beings, then why shouldn't
the "dynamis" be infused with those qualities too? In fact, it would be
somewhat inconsistent if it wasn't. So although the dynamis may not *be*
intelligent as we commonly understand the term, it doesn't mean that
intelligence isn't evident in its workings, or that its workings aren't
articulate.

Symptoms can certainly be seen as the body's attempt to heal itself, but it
depends on how you perceive that to be working. The dynamis simply reflects
the entirety of the present energetic state of the individual. As above, so
below. If the present state contains unhealthy elements, the dynamis
projects the nature of those elements. It just says "this is how it is; this
is the picture of you". And because there are physical analogues to mental
and emotional states, there could be said to be an intelligence evident. In
other words, symptoms speak a language, they're articulate. Our everyday
language is full of clues to this -- expressions we use without thinking,
but which, when taken in literal terms, demonstrate consistency with
patterns exhibited in pathology. I've cured as many people from cystitis by
asking them what they're "pissed off" about as I have using remedies.

So if anything, it's the mind that comes across as unintelligent. By not
being able to understand what the symptoms are saying about the individual's
state, the mind and will are not engaged in an appropriate response. Instead
efforts are most frequently put into trying to silence the dynamis which,
for as long as the state remains, will find some way of articulating the
nature of it. Because it's there. This puts mind and dynamis into
opposition. This is not health.

I forget which Eastern philosophy voiced the idea that all illness
originates from wrong thinking, though "wrong" is perhaps rather too emotive
a word for some to stomach. You could possibly substitute "unhelpful". Mind
and dynamis are part of the same force so they need to work in the same
direction to give free expression to the fundamental nature of the
individual (or Organon aphorism 9 if you prefer). The dynamis, being a
fundamental element of the life force and hence closer to that fundamental
nature, in a sense has profound intelligence because it's able to express
accurately, even eloquently, exactly what's standing in the way of
manifesting that perfection. If the rest of the organism is not
response-able, then the state continues and deepens (which the dynamis
reflects in "worsening" symptoms) and the whole organism is brought to a
halt. If response-ability continues to be absent, if the will of the
individual (whether consciously or subconsciously) isn't focused on changing
the state *that needs to be changed* (ie. not the symptoms, but the state
they are reflections of), then eventually the organism's energies become so
conflicted or dissipated that life is no longer tenable.

So far from being imperfect, it strikes me that the dynamis is a most
perfect thing. It's the guardian of aphorism 9! The imperfections aren't in
the dynamis, but in the focus of response-ability.

Regards
Wendy
http://www.smeddum.net/

Re: potentized vaccin/ homeopathy or isopathy

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 6:44 pm
by Farbod Rahnamai
Dear Shanon
you wrote:
damaged
linguistic
You got the point. Thanks. One of the biggest problems in orthodox
homeopathic medicine is our terminology. Suppose a discussion on MIASM,
anyone has his own interpretation. About allopathy, homeopathy and they way
it works anyone has his own interpretation, and so on. But the point is that
the first time this word (isopathy) used in our healing system what did it
mean. As I know it was used first by Hahnemann. He used this word for
applying an artificial disease same as existing disease. I don't know when
the first meaning of this word turned to nowadays meaning (potentizing blood
or saliva etc. and as a result using unproven remedy)
person

But as you know the toxicological reports are one of our bases of materia
medica. Hughes and his fellows used crued remedies or remedies under C6 or
C12. His "A CYCLOPEDIA OF DRUG PATHOGENESY" is one of our sources in remedy
picture and materia medica and as you know it has a lot of toxicological
reports and many crud provings. Thus the picture is not so different. On the
other hand the picture of patient who used mercury is always mercurius. We'd
better call him a case of mercurius proving. But we do not use Merc. to cure
this patient, just because it is ISOPATHY and just because it doesn't work.
We use remedies like Kali-i., Kali-bi. or Hep. to treat the patient,
although Merc. may be the most similar remedy to his picture. It means that
some homeopaths like HMN, Kent and Hering did not used potentized mercurius
to cure mercurialized patient, which was so prevalent in those days
hospitals.

Best Regards
Farbod

Re: potentized vaccin/ homeopathy or isopathy

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 7:15 pm
by Eleana Needham
Thank you Feras for the timely pointer... I have a patient at the moment who
has SO MUCH iatrogenic pathology, it is frightening. The sad thing is that
most of this type of grief comes from the physicians' desire to do good...
What was the saying? "The road to hell is paved with good intentions..."

Regards
Eleana