potentized vaccin/ homeopathy or isopathy

[Farbod Rahnamai]

That is always an unanswered question for me. Using potentized vaccin(or
any substance) for patient who suffer from the material dose of that
substance or vaccin seems to be isopathy. On the other hand potentizing a
substance make it somehow different in quality and thus it may be
homeopathy. Would you please help me to understand the subject.

Best
Farbod

[Feras Hakkak]

Dear Farbod,
It seems to me that "Isopathy" is a therapetic method in which we get a substance from the patient's body (e.g. a drop of his/her blood), and after potentizing we give it to the patient. I think this might be homeopathy or not. Because if we prove that remedy we may get symptoms different from the original patient's. We have to conduct much experience on this to find a law for it.
"Homeopathy" is when we pick a substance and after potentizing, proving, and matching the symptoms we give it to the patient. Here we can get the original substance from anything, including the vaccine, bacteria, blood of the patient, etc. BUT to prescribe we have to prove the remedy and match the symptoms according to the similarity law.
Now if we potentize a vaccine, from which a person has been harmed, and give it to the patient, we have probably done an uncertain job. Because we do not know if the potentized vaccine can produce the same symptoms as in the patient. I mean this can be homoeopathy or not. However some people believe that this method is always homeopathic and there is no need to prove the remedy, and consider it a law. Maybe they are right. I don't know.

I will be happy to hear from the more experienced people on the list on this controversial subject.
Sincerely,
Feras Hakkak

Farbod Rahnamai wrote:
That is always an unanswered question for me. Using potentized vaccin(or any substance) for patient who suffer from the material dose of that substance or vaccin seems to be isopathy. On the other hand potentizing a
substance make it somehow different in quality and thus it may be homeopathy. Would you please help me to understand the subject.

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[Liz Lalor]

as homoeopaths we have a repertory that is based on the provings of
homoeopaths for hundreds of years. Isopathy is not based on provings.
Isopathy is based on the principle of "similar cures similar" / homoeopathy
is based on "like cures like" end of discussion . Liz Lalor

[Shannon Nelson]

Hi Farbod,

It's true that once a substance is diluted and potentized it is no longer
really "the same", and one could argue that it is not longer "isopathic".
However, whether a remedy or substance is *homeopathic* really depends on
application, rather than the nature of the substance. So, if a potentized
toxin (e.g. potentized vaccine, or arsenicum to treat arsenic poisoning,
etc.) is prescribed on the basis of *similarity of the symptom picture*,
then it is homeopathic *to that case*; but if it is chosen simply because
"the problem started after that vaccination", or "to treat arsenic
poisoning", then it is isopathic *to that case*.

The experience over many years of people who have used both methods is that
a remedy chosen via homeopathic prescription (symptom correspondence) works
deeper and faster, but isopathic prescription can also be valuable, and
sometimes seems necessary to clear the way for further *homeopathic*
prescribing for the person.

I don't have experience to say yay or nay, but that has been my
understanding.

Hope this helps!
Shannon
on 11/9/03 11:57 PM, Farbod Rahnamai at frahnama@homeopathyiran.com wrote:

[Feras Hakkak]

"Treatment of Iatrogenic Disease and Vaccinosis". This is the article in David Little's online library.
http://www.simillimum.com/Thelittlelibr ... ogen1.html
Feras Hakkak
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[Zaidee]

Dear Farbod,

Potentizing a substance does not render its homoeopthicity, in the absence
of proving. All that can be said about such potentised substance is, that
it has gained a longer life as alcohol preserves the medicinal properties
much longer. So it is out rightly Isopathy and not Homoeopathy. Psorinum
would have ceased to be a homoeopathic nosode/remedy unless not proved
according to the homoeopathic principles. Take care.

Sincerely,
Zaidee

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:27:09 +0330
From: "Farbod Rahnamai"
Subject: potentized vaccin/ homeopathy or isopathy
That is always an unanswered question for me. Using potentized vaccin(or
any substance) for patient who suffer from the material dose of that
substance or vaccin seems to be isopathy. On the other hand potentizing a
substance make it somehow different in quality and thus it may be
homeopathy. Would you please help me to understand the subject.
Best
Farbod

[andyh]

>

Farbod,
My working hypothesis is that with a successful potentized remedy of either isopathic OR homeopathic valence, we are STIMULATING the autonomous and intelligent immune mechanism. This mechanism is of an energetic or spiritual quality (ie inherent in the etheric double and higher "frequency" subtle bodies of an organism, the very essence of a "living" entity which generates coherent existence rather than diffusion). The active potentized remedy holds a patterned signal which is resonant with some pattern within this living entity (a larger or smaller totality of greater or
lesser MATCHING picture or pattern). The distinction between isopathic and homeopathic lies not in the potency, but in the target of the remedy and its means of selection.

An ISOPATHIC stimulus (idem, tautopathic or IDENTICAL potentized remedy of a certain toxicity or morbific agent noticed to be a factor in disease of a person) has an effect of provoking the organism in a certain SPECIFIC way. In the case of toxicity or poisoning, it can stimulate excretion of the given agent (experiments by Boiron Labs published in the 1980's showed this, for example, but it is also a matter of record from experience by practitioners; a few classical practitioners wrote about it). In the case of prophylaxis by isopathic means, the organism is bolstered via
"challenge" against a particular toxic or morbific influence to a greater or lesser degree, and of duration and robustness dependent on potency and schedule of dose (note that isopathic is not the only utilized means of prophylaxis using potencies as you know.) The condition calling for an isopathic may be an obstacle to cure without removal of which the organism cannot receive and react to a remedy for the more complete pattern of organismal operation. Thus isopathy is of great importance, particularly regarding removal of iatrogenic taints, effects of industrial poisoning,
and for prophylaxis. That is not to say that the isopathic always works to remove toxins or can do so without also using a facsimile (ie homeopathic) remedy.

The HOMEOPATHIC stimulus is not chosen from an specifically offending influence, but is a FACSIMILE version of the "GESTALT" pattern of symptoms, sensations, modalities, etiologies, and psychology apprehended via interview, questionnaire, examination, observation, diagnostic category, etc. Often the gestalt is well known as an "essence" among the pantheon of potential matching patterns in remedies. But many other times the gestalt of a remedy has not been fleshed out in the literature of mm and repertories and the case hinges on a paragraph 153 symptom or symptom complex
which is the hallmark of the state and its remedy. Due to the diversity of the field of miasm and the combinatorial potential of meiosis and genetic possibility, the homeopathic remedy for an individual can be from any source in the kingdoms of natural living and nonliving matter or energy. This can make the "bullseye" optimal stimulus difficult to find. Compared with the isopathic, the homeopathic is far more profound in its effects and the more restorative of the organism in toto, when correctly chosen and applied in the appropriate potency, duration, and sequence to lead
the organism to a higher state of function and comfort. Like the isopathic, the homeopathic remedy also works by challenging the organism (cf Organon- providing an "artificial disease" ). But it is challenging not by mimicking the onslaught of a specific invader or agent, but by striking a resonance with a pattern state which represents the immune mechanism's more GENERAL stance at a given time, which is the result of inherited miasmatic weaknesses and tendencies which derive from those energetically transmitted formative entities. This general state can change after response
to a stimulative remedy, and the organism can exhibit an earlier or other state which begs yet more therapeutic intervention. Thus instead of only providing a drainage or providing specific immunity (as in the case of the isopathic), the homeopathic remedy causes the organism to do wholesale "housecleaning" . Restoration is provoked of the areas which, by virtue of its ongoing pattern of being, the organism has accumulated energies of particular type in various weaker organ systems (eg cf chinese medicine--grief susceptibility locates in the lung meridians, anger in the liver
meridians, anxiety/fear in the stomach meridians, etc). These energies represent "unfinished business" which the organism could not process expeditiously or at all, in other words, it was vulnerable to a situation or experience and could never "heal" it but instead the energy lodged in the organism. Eventually such burdens manifest in physiologic malfunction or organic disease of a particular pattern. Medicine has named most of these manifested diseases via the name of the first observer to write about them. But each of these manifested conditions is preceded by a pattern of
susceptibility, which is what is addressed by the remedy which is chosen to mimic the organism in the very mode that it operates, to "call its number" so to speak. What seems to be unique about the homeopathic remedy is that it can reproducibly stimulate a true general restorative process in the organism, the hallmark of which is reverse of time sense, and a very real return to an earlier point or state of being. This seems to be how the organism does all self-healing. But miasmatic tendencies keep the organism in a lifelong spiral pattern downward, as it were, unless that
pattern's "number is called" by some means, either by skill or chance. Homeopathic medicine is a highly systematized way to consistently provide that restorative stimulus by means of skill. It is not very commonly seen in most therapeutic arts, but is a requisite benchmark of successful practice in homeopathy. If it is not observed even subtly, then no actual general restoration has occurred. Evidence for this restoration is in the reverse recapitulation of symptoms, feelings, thoughts, and states observed in a favorable remedy response. This is the expellation of burden
due to the strengthening of the apathetic regions of matrix of the being's energetic physiology as it "heals itself" by a time reversal or redux. Such a general and profound restorative response is not found in reactions to the isopathic remedy unless that remedy also embodies the organism's overall pattern (i.e. the morbific agent was attracted and lodged because the being's overall pattern was matched by the morbific agent, a relatively rare occurrence).

This is one viewpoint. Perhaps will provoke further ideas of yours.

Best,
Andy
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[Liz Lalor]

Andy a potentised substance of a patient that has suffered a reaction to a
vaccine is not homoeopathy because it is based on the principle of "similar
or same cures same" and homoeopathy is based on "like cures like". I am
passionate about this as one of my counselling clients a Mancinella
constitution was going to a practitioner(not a qualified homoeopath) who was
using a potentised energy from the person themselves. The "same curing same"
sent him into a psychotic spin. Isopathy might be a very valid form of
drainage therapy and I believe it works as such BUT it is not homoeopathy.

[Julian Winston]

At 2:51 AM -0800 11/11/03, andyh@mcn.org wrote:
Ah! The stimulation model!
This was the explanation by Hahnemann in the 5th edition. It was used
by Kent, and really grabbed onto by Vithoulkas.
But it is at odds with the explanation offered by Hahnemann in the 6th edition.
In that work Hahnemann speculates that it is the remedy itself which
heals, viithout the vital force.
1. The body becomes distuned, and the vital force reacts by providing symptoms.
2. The vital force *cannot heal* otherwise it would have done so. It
can only react.
3. The remedy is an artificial, but stronger disease.
4. The stronger disease (the remedy) pushes the weaker disease away.
5. Since the stronger disease is artificial, it fades on its own.
6. When it fades, the vital force (dynamis) can then resume it's
action keeping the workings of the body harmonious.

Now HOW the remedy does that, is not explained. Maybe it IS
stimulating the intelligent immune system. BUT... the intelligent
immune system *is NOT* the dynamis (which is unintelligent and
reactive) since it cannot heal on its own.

JW

[Farbod Rahnamai]

Dear Feras Hakkak / Liz Lalor / Zaidee
Thanks for your intrest. Let me cclarify the subject more. I know that using
potentized vaccin is not a scientific method according to Classical
Homeopathy. That is clear that we should not use a remedy without proving
only according to causation of disease or without case taking. But if
someone use such remedy may he/she says that it is homeopathy because the
similar artificial disease is capable to remove the first disease.(organon)
On the other hand there is an idea that this remedy is the SAME disease,
thus it is ISOPATHY and according to organon and also according to our logic
same can not cure same.

You wrote:
and matching the symptoms we give it to the >patient. Here we can get the
original substance from anything, including the vaccine, bacteria, blood of
the patient, etc. BUT >to prescribe we have to prove the remedy and match
the symptoms according to the similarity law.

You described here the method of cure by a classical homeopath. But
homeopathy is more expanded issue. When a case of measles stay in touch with
a case of whooping cough and catch it, his measles would be cured by the
latter disease and this cure is homeopathy. I think we as classical
homeopaths, should be able to interprete any challenge between two disease
(artificial or natural disease). And in this case also we should be able to
interprete the action of potentized vaccin on a case of vaccinosis. In the
case of vaccinosis what should we call this treatment? Isopathy (the same
artificial disease) or homeopathy (similar artificial disease) I would be
happy if let me know your ideas.

Best Regards
Farbod