Minutus

This is all well and good from the perspective of the practitioner, and by golly you have convinced me. But it DOESN'T IMPRESS the patients who are awash in materialistic garbage and cannot see how homeopathy can work. They need to be shown that homeopathy does work, whether we know how or not. I just recommend Bioplasma to a friend of mine. A slight cost, no diagnosis or prescribing necessary, and should she be in the majority of people who find that it helps her, we will have another homeopathy supporter. (:->)

Roger
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:40:06 +0200
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Re: cell salts bottle
Add in the cost of a dermatologist, cardiologist, gastroenterology, psychiatrist, plus associated meds vs one HOMEOPATH, one remedy.

Regards,
Paul

Todd Rowe from the American Medical School of Homeopathy did a survey of Professional Homeopaths in the USA. It is on the AMCH website.

The average homeopath from the survey that included people who do not charge for services. Was $79,000.00 a year. Average intake fee was $ 268.00.

In Canada it is closer to $50,000. I am going from memory here so please look it up for the actual numbers.
There are many more statistics there.

Maria

Real homeopaths have very good success rates:-)
That is because they have the proper trining in how to uderstand the case at hand, and in how to use that uderstanding to select symptoms of the patient, that are in proportion to the issues presenting.
And it is done with zero books or software.... It can ONLY be done without books or software.
That is step one without which there can be no homeopathy.

Step two would be converting that to rubrics. (Rubrics are symptoms of the PATIENT in a specific format used in repertories)
ONLY after step two, is it correct to look up these rubrics in a repertory.

Several steps follow that. But let's leave it at these two essential first steps for now....
Okay so how did you do step one?
And how did you do step two,
BOTH of them essential to complete BEFORE you look at any software?
They are how you know what to look up in the software.

The crummy website you are relying on is NOT a homeopath, nor is it a repertory.
It cannot be used to do any repertorizing therefore. It is a gimmick to get money for the remedies they sell.
You get what you pay for!
Cheap junk is free, and has zero cost and zero value in this case.

The mechanism they use - apart from having an inexcusably poor subset of any rubrics - is the back to front workings of the worst "homeopaths".
Such "homeopaths" (ones who think they are homeopaths but lack the basic concepts) start at the tail end and select rubrics.
They do not know how to develop SYMPTOMS of the PATIENT as the starting palce.
Looking for rubrics is guaranteed to get you the wrong remedy.
You can go to the ten thousand or so rubrics of ANY remedy - and yo WILL find some ribrics to fit your patient.
But that does NOT mean the remedy is suited to the patient.

You can ONLY find a remedy with any chance of heping if you FIRST select the most relevant symptoms, in proper pritoty ans balance for the case, and THEN convert them to balanced rubrics (Balanced means not too any mind sx or to few relevant sx or not leaving out an esential item etc) ...all B EFORE you go to a repertory

Step three is to ONLY look up the rubrics you preparted in advance, BEFORE you went to a repertoy.
ALL OTHER RUBRICS ARE IRRELEVANT.

ONLY the important PRE-selected rubtics are relevant.
SO you seek those only, in your repertory, and find the remedies commonly pointed to by THESE rubrics.
From the short list of potential remedies, you then study all that is known about each of those, so that you will recognize whicjh one CONTAINS evenmore feature than the selected ones, for your patient.
NEVER look at what else the remedycan do. It is irrelevant.
ONLY the features presenting in your patient must be there, regardless whar else is there.

If you have followed me thus far, you will see that a list of yes/no rubrics as at your chosen website, is the back to front method used by "homepaths" who do not have a clue what they are about and is thus of totally zero value.
It is NOT how homeopathy works and will likely fail every time.

If you want a repertory on which to cut Your teeth, get a copy of BOERICKE's POCKET MATERIA MEDICA AND REPERTORY AND DO AS ABOVE.
Firstly that is not even a poor excuse for a repertory, it is total used car sales junk.
Secondly, a poor workman blames their tools.
It is the principles of reperotiizing which matter, not the "tool" you found, that were incorrect and if you had selected the right sypmtoms and then selected the balanced rubrics (and yo need to know how to balance them), BEFORE going to this excuse of system, you MIGHT have found a remedy that did more good than harm for a dose or two. But I would not count on it. And what you did is not homeopathy. You can not START with the repertory however good or bad it is as a repertory. The repertory is towards the END of the remedy selection process.
No.
There again you get what you pay for. Radar as a repertory and materia medica (the two are very different) costs several thousand dollars, and needs regular updating for more money.
But it has all 5000 or so remedies and all 10,000 or so rbrics that each has.
That is 50 million rubrics, well organized and searchable.
The junk you found has so few rubrics they can list them on a page.
If I want to find one of the 50 milion ruburics I have selected from a patient, in Radar, I will merely type the rubric and it will pop up for me to select, with a list of remedies that contain the rubric. Note that it is I who chose what rubric to look for, there is no homeopathy that works by going through a list of rubrics as you found, and looking to see if the remedy fits the patient (backwards, and will give you a wrong remedy). ALL remedies will appear to fit the patient if you do it backwatds as SOMEWHERE in the ten thousand rubrics of any remedy, will be some that are also in the patient. BUT that is irrelevant. It does not matter what a remedy has that is also in the patient.

You need to find the SET of specifically chosen RELEVANT top syptoms ONLY, belonging to the patient - BEFORE looking - and ten find this SET within ONE remedy - regardless what else the remedy has.

SO then, having good software like Radar, will still not teach you HOW to repertorize (to select a remedy that is truly homeopathic) and so that is where the success rate comes in - the remedy MUST be correctly selected.

You need to know how to open the gas cap and what liquid to put in there, and how to drive, if you want the car to go where you want to go - no matter how wonderful the car may be.
(And you found a car with the engine missing as well.)
They are all just fine.
IT is HOW to repertorize that needs to be known, understood, and used, to select a remedy.
Sitting with magnesium powder on you?
No I do not think you will find that rubric
Nor will you find "magnesium deficiency" as the repertory lists symptoms not conditions or diseases.
That is because different people will have different magnesium deficiency symptoms, and will thus need a different remedy to correct the lack of absorption issue for each person.
But you WILL find the deificiency symptoms as rubrics, and doing it the right way round will get ou a matched remedy.
High cholesterol is not a symptom, so you will not find it.
You need to look for the symptom effects of high cholesterol (if any).
High blood pressure IS a symptom and it is there.
It is not a question and I am not Joe. You are not making any sense. STate what you are talking about.
Only for individuals where the symptoms point to arnica.
For others ageing symptoms point to other remedies.
You are not making sense. Explain what you are talking about?

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Your description of the superiority of homeopathy over con med economically will not be apparent to newbies to homeopathy who are awash in materialism and who have close family members who fancy themselves as brainiacs who "know" that homeopathy is bunk.

Roger Bird
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 19:13:42 -0500
Subject: Re: [Minutus] cell salts bottle

Very nice, Soroush!
Yes to "following your gut", and the importance to getting enough of the relevant information; sometimes quite a trick!
As far as cost of homeopathy being high in the US, really that depends on context. My own experience was that the seemingly high cost very quickly began to look like a bargain. IN part because it *worked*, whereas other things had not; but also because the cost of those seemingly expensive visits was quickly dwarfed by the savings in pills, potions, return visits (much less frequent and thereby cheaper than the bodyworkers and other alternative practitioners I had previously depended on solely).
Roger, I hugely sympathize with your frustration. There can be all sorts of possible reasons why the needed remedy may take a long time (and perhaps a change of homeopaths too) to be found: sometimes the needed remedy is an obscure one, or at least not recognized by the homeopath; or maybe the needed information is not given (or at least not heard or understood). Maybe there is a "maintaining cause" that needs to be recognized and eliminated. I suppose there could be other reasons too.

But *usually* at least there is help along the way: remedies that at least offer some relief, and reactions that give the homeopath some guidance. But in some (I think very few) cases that doesn't happen within what seems a reasonable period of time (and money). When I was in that position with my (then toddler) daughter, I was able to persevere -- through four years of "almost useful" chronic remedies, until our homeopath was finally able to realize what she needed, and at that point it all became worthwhile. During that time he also did wonderfully at managing her many and dramatic acutes; and also he had had wonderful success with myself and my husband, so we were very motivated to keep trying, but really I sympathize. I have no good answer, except that in the future she *may* find better success; I hope it will be so.

Shannon
________________________________

All that you say may be true from your perspective, but it will all be mostly lost on people who are first being introduced to homeopathy.

There are reasons why allopathy almost won in the USA, and the primary reasons cannot be because allopathy almost won in the USA, i.e. con med did some legal tricks to suppress homeopathy. That is circular reasoning.

I think that the biggest reason is the triumph of materialistic science, philosophically and economically. And everything else is the result of that, including the necessity for high fees. High fees block entry into homeopathy only because potential patients are either materialists or are closely associated with materialist, particularly of the egghead variety.
Roger Bird
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 20:14:56 -0500
Subject: Re: [Minutus] cell salts bottle
Ummmm paying one's bills really is also part of the game.

While there are some number of homeopaths who charge low fees because they *don't* have to live on the income (retired, or have other funding, whatever), if we have to *depend* on that in order to have homeopaths, we will be in a very sorry state indeed.

As someone else remarked -- there just aren't a lot of wealthy homeopaths in the US, or at least not ones that got that way through their homeopathy practice!

Think about the role that insurance companies have played in our "health care" model: they siphon away funds, and they give undeserved support to this pharmaceutical model, thereby putting all of us "alternative" practitioners at a severe disadvantage -- because people think that since drugs are free, the homeopath's services should be also.

But homeopaths are *not* being funded by insurance and pharmaceutical companies; and a homeopath may spend *hours* getting to the point of giving that first remedy (especially newer ones, and especially on a more difficult case) -- versus minutes at a time for the mainstream appointments.

It's really not a fair comparison.
________________________________

"I do think that education is really our key need!"

I agree 100%, except the education needed may not come out of a book. We need for people to be less materialistic and more spiritual. And I do not mean the materialism that causes a person to fret when they can't have the handbag that they wanted to buy. I mean the knowing that there is more to life than only what one can hit with a hammer.

Roger Bird

________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 20:02:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [Minutus] cell salts bottle

One thing that skews the cost in the US, is that in the US a homeopath's fee is not covered by insurance (except that if they are an MD, part of it might be) -- but in many cases the mainstream coverage is low-cost or even free to the consumer, with the rest being covered by insurance. For many people it's a very big stretch to pay substantial amounts out-of-pocket, when they can get drugs etc. for free.
Some of us made the mental shift long ago, that paying for something that *works*, is way better than getting for free something that (let's be charitable) doesn't do what's needed. But for some people, the cost of those appointments represents a sacrifice, in addition to requiring in some cases a real leap of faith to get there. I do think that education is really our key need!

Shannon

Everything that has been said here to counter my ideas have all been 100% correct, given the perspective of the professional homeopath. From the perspective of the monster market of potential customers, I would say that homeopathy was dead as a doornail if I didn't already know that it had "died" in 1975, roughly. So, let's say that it is being reborn but the birth is taking a really long time. As an almost outsider, I would say that 95% of the American population would not recognize the word "homeopathy". In India, I would guess that 100% of the people would know what the word "homeopathy" meant. In the UK, I would guess that 95% know what the word means. In America, perhaps 4% know what it means, and they actively think that it is bunk. And probably less than 1% are homeopaths, boosters, supporters, and patients.

To change the minds of the 4% debunkers, forget about it. To educate the 95% who are clueless, it will take an act of God. Look what happened to Michelle Obama; they shut her down quick with ridicule.

Roger Bird
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 06:06:11 -0400
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Re: cell salts bottle
Todd Rowe from the American Medical School of Homeopathy did a survey of Professional Homeopaths in the USA. It is on the AMCH website.

The average homeopath from the survey that included people who do not charge for services. Was $79,000.00 a year. Average intake fee was $ 268.00.

In Canada it is closer to $50,000. I am going from memory here so please look it up for the actual numbers.
There are many more statistics there.

Maria

I have been successful with greatly improving my health from being a cripple to running a mile in the mornings, and I did this with one of my principles being that if something is expensive, it is to be avoided. Like getting better sleep rather than heart medication, or reducing inflammation rather than chiropractic. So please don't tell me that good health requires lots of money.
Roger Bird
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 04:00:10 -0700
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Re: cell salts bottle
Real homeopaths have very good success rates:-)
That is because they have the proper trining in how to uderstand the case at hand, and in how to use that uderstanding to select symptoms of the patient, that are in proportion to the issues presenting.
And it is done with zero books or software.... It can ONLY be done without books or software.
That is step one without which there can be no homeopathy.

Step two would be converting that to rubrics. (Rubrics are symptoms of the PATIENT in a specific format used in repertories)
ONLY after step two, is it correct to look up these rubrics in a repertory.

Several steps follow that. But let's leave it at these two essential first steps for now....
Okay so how did you do step one?
And how did you do step two,
BOTH of them essential to complete BEFORE you look at any software?
They are how you know what to look up in the software.

The crummy website you are relying on is NOT a homeopath, nor is it a repertory.
It cannot be used to do any repertorizing therefore. It is a gimmick to get money for the remedies they sell.
You get what you pay for!
Cheap junk is free, and has zero cost and zero value in this case.

The mechanism they use - a=part from having an inexcusably poor subset of any rubrics - is the back to front workings of the worst "homeopaths".
Such "homeopaths" (ones who think they are homeopaths but lack the basic concepts) start at the tail end and select rubrics.
They do not know how to develop SYMPTOMS of the PATIENT as the starting palce.
Looking for rubrics is guaranteed to get you the wrong remedy.
You can go to the ten thousand or so rubrics of ANY remedy - and yo WILL find some ribrics to fit your patient.
But that does NOT mean the remedy is suited to the patient.

You can ONLY find a remedy with any chance of heping if you FIRST select the most relevant symptoms, in proper pritoty ans balance for the case, and THEN convert them to balanced rubrics (Balanced means not too any mind sx or to few relevant sx or not leaving out an esential item etc) ...all B EFORE you go to a repertory

Step three is to ONLY look up the rubrics you preparted in advance, BEFORE you went to a repertoy.
ALL OTHER RUBRICS ARE IRRELEVANT.

ONLY the important PRE-selected rubtics are relevant.
SO you seek those only, in your repertory, and find the remedies commonly pointed to by THESE rubrics.
From the short list of potential remedies, you then study all that is known about each of those, so that you will recognize whicjh one CONTAINS evenmore feature than the selected ones, for your patient.
NEVER look at what else the remedycan do. It is irrelevant.
ONLY the features presenting in your patient must be there, regardless whar else is there.

If you have followed me thus far, you will see that a list of yes/no rubrics as at your chosen website, is the back to front method used by "homepaths" who do not have a clue what they are about and is thus of totally zero value.
It is NOT how homeopathy works and will likely fail every time.

If you want a repertory on which to cut Your teeth, get a copy of BOERICKE's POCKET MATERIA MEDICA AND REPERTORY AND DO AS ABOVE.
Firstly that is not even a poor excuse for a repertory, it is total used car sales junk.
Secondly, a poor workman blames their tools.
It is the principles of reperotiizing which matter, not the "tool" you found, that were incorrect and if you had selected the right sypmtoms and then selected the balanced rubrics (and yo need to know how to balance them), BEFORE going to this excuse of system, you MIGHT have found a remedy that did more good than harm for a dose or two. But I would not count on it. And what you did is not homeopathy. You can not START with the repertory however good or bad it is as a repertory. The repertory is towards the END of the remedy selection process.
No.
There again you get what you pay for. Radar as a repertory and materia medica (the two are very different) costs several thousand dollars, and needs regular updating for more money.
But it has all 5000 or so remedies and all 10,000 or so rbrics that each has.
That is 50 million rubrics, well organized and searchable.
The junk you found has so few rubrics they can list them on a page.
If I want to find one of the 50 milion ruburics I have selected from a patient, in Radar, I will merely type the rubric and it will pop up for me to select, with a list of remedies that contain the rubric. Note that it is I who chose what rubric to look for, there is no homeopathy that works by going through a list of rubrics as you found, and looking to see if the remedy fits the patient (backwards, and will give you a wrong remedy). ALL remedies will appear to fit the patient if you do it backwatds as SOMEWHERE in the ten thousand rubrics of any remedy, will be some that are also in the patient. BUT that is irrelevant. It does not matter what a remedy has that is also in the patient.

You need to find the SET of specifically chosen RELEVANT top syptoms ONLY, belonging to the patient - BEFORE looking - and ten find this SET within ONE remedy - regardless what else the remedy has.

SO then, having good software like Radar, will still not teach you HOW to repertorize (to select a remedy that is truly homeopathic) and so that is where the success rate comes in - the remedy MUST be correctly selected.

You need to know how to open the gas cap and what liquid to put in there, and how to drive, if you want the car to go where you want to go - no matter how wonderful the car may be.
(And you found a car with the engine missing as well.)
They are all just fine.
IT is HOW to repertorize that needs to be known, understood, and used, to select a remedy.
Sitting with magnesium powder on you?
No I do not think you will find that rubric
Nor will you find "magnesium deficiency" as the repertory lists symptoms not conditions or diseases.
That is because different people will have different magnesium deficiency symptoms, and will thus need a different remedy to correct the lack of absorption issue for each person.
But you WILL find the deificiency symptoms as rubrics, and doing it the right way round will get ou a matched remedy.
High cholesterol is not a symptom, so you will not find it.
You need to look for the symptom effects of high cholesterol (if any).
High blood pressure IS a symptom and it is there.
It is not a question and I am not Joe. You are not making any sense. STate what you are talking about.
Only for individuals where the symptoms point to arnica.
For others ageing symptoms point to other remedies.
You are not making sense. Explain what you are talking about?

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Okay, I'm going to take that as a "No, it's not homeopathy."
However, notice that is not the question I had asked…

I too, Sheri, continue to not understand why YOU still fail to understand that for most of the world -- and even most of the US, and even many on this very list -- "Hahnemannian homeopathy" is NOT the full and final definition of the word "homeopathy", much though you would like for it to be.

At the same time I do share your concern that "anything goes" is NOT a useful or meaningful or appropriate "definition" for homeopathy; it's important that we de define ourselves.

From that standpoint, I feel that my question was a reasonable one, unlike your answer.

Okay, if this is going to be another one just between you and me, I guess neither of us needs to really keep it going.

Hi Roger,

I've looked only a little bit at sites such as (and I *think* including) abchomeopathy, and they don't exactly represent the pinnacle of homeopathy… I think you might have a much better experience if you buy a few of the "lay prescriber" books, geared toward acute prescribing. "Homeopathy At Home" by Panos (and ?) is one I like very much; another is "Everybody's Guide to Homoepahtic Medicine" by Ullman, and there are some others that aren't coming to mind at the moment.

Those give very clear guidelines to remedy selection *for acutes*, as well as good background information. And they are much easier to browse through than any website I have tried it with.

More below:
(Have you tried taking strong doses of the "activated" form of vitamin B6? I forget what it's called, but a health food store could tell you. Some people need this in order to utilize magnesium (and possibly the regular B6 would work too); I'm sure there can be other reasons too, but that's one that I'm aware of.)
Different people will have different effects (symptoms) from inadequate magnesium; in homeopathy we would be repertorizing the symptoms of the individual person, not the (possible or presumed) cause of those symptoms. E.g. to do with "irritable" or "restless" or "sleepless" etc. (and in far more detail than that, of course).

Speaking of cell salts -- have you tried e.g. mag-phos to see if that does you any good...
Our repertories are mostly geared toward the *observable* rather than toward lab work. It works!
I've noticed you mentioning it, but didn't get just what the question was.
He made some very interesting statements, and the particularly (to me) interesting ones, were about experiences that he, and others, had had with Arnica. Very intriguing, and I found it intriguing enough to test out the "arnica for sleep" angle on my aging and nearly sleepless mother, and danged if it didn't work!

At that time *nothing* was giving her sleep; sometimes an herbal thing would work for maybe a night, maybe two, then stop. We kept trying things…

And arnica, well that actually worked *really well* for maybe a couple of months. Then it stopped, and (following symptom change) I switched her onto I think it was carbo-veg, and that worked, for some weeks, after which I went back to Arnica, and it worked again. That was a blessing, and I thank the good Joe (who has long since left this list, I think) for it.

At the time other people too were reporting that Arnica was helping them to sleep as well.
Yes, that's what he said -- but that part I did not experiment with.
I remember it being more of a vague accusation than an actual question -- what was your question?
(COUGH, SPLUTTER-GAG-GASP! Whew. Wait, where were we?)
Ah, you were saying that we're keeping Joeopathy a secret so it doesn't cut into our profits… :oD

Sorry Roger, you had me there for a moment.

No, speaking for myself, my reasons for not replying (though I remember the discussions well, and found them very interesting) were (a) I wasn't exactly sure what you were asking, and (b) to the extent that I got it, there wasn't any short or clear answer coming to my mind, and © I'm really, really busy these days, so I tend to nibble the baits that are either tastier or at least more accessible.

And in that regard yes, I will cop to your accusation, I am human. )

But try your question again...

Shannon
________________________________