Minutus

Karen, with all due respect, I see a request to eliminate from this list anything that has to do with the activism that Homeopathy so desperately needs as misguided and dangerous. Homeopathy already has many, many good physicians: without the activism and dedicated work many activists/homeopaths undertake to ensure that we are all connected (Dana foremost among them), none of us would be able to learn about, use, or practice homeopathy. The need for us to work together to set high standards for education and practice is great, if this isn't accomplished there is no way we can even begin to educate the public about what homeopathy is and what we can do as physicians. The topic deserves a place on this list because it is vital to what we do; and the particular exchange which sparked your letter is a very good example of just why we need to work together and use our resources wisely (I don't think there's any insult being exchanged at all, and I would like to see how the discussion pans out: it's an opportunity to make even stronger connections between homeopathic institutions and practitioners).

There's a lot of potential here for people to work together. Whenever I see this kind of discussion "shut down", I feel very disheartened about my future as a practitioner. I live in a Canadian province where Homeopaths are about to be "regulated", with rather idiotically divisive stipulations, I'm afraid, following a process set up after so many Homeopathic schools and organizations simply spent years being divisive, setting up duplicate "societies" and "associations" where one group would simply bad mouth the others, while so many homeopaths wished they would all just stop wasting time for that, shake hands, work hard at getting us all to work together, and then go out and approach insurance providers and the health ministries and public relations people, among other necessary things--all efforts which would have helped homeopathy and homeopaths become better known to the public, more established, and far more accessible (as a legitimate medical treatment, and in terms of finances) to a great many more patients. The growing number of well educated homeopaths could only have been made stronger if this kind of effort had been made on a much larger scale, but it wasn't.

The cost of this kind of divisiveness and aborted activism has been, is, and will continue to be very expensive to individual homeopathic practitioners and to homeopathy in general well in to the future in the province where I live--and we've got a lot to do to make up for lost time and resources. I'd like to see other homeopaths work hard to avoid falling into the same traps and making the same costly mistakes wherever they practice.

That old saying about "if you don't do politics, politics will do you" is absolutely right. We really shouldn't forget that activism--educating the public about homeopathy, working together to build our own strengths as a community of physicians, and working together to ensure we will always be able to study and practice--is a big part of what we need to keep in focus, as good homeopathic physicians. I don't think this mailing list would be of any use to any of us as homeopaths if it silenced activism in any way.

Nancy Siciliana
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I think this recent exchange is a good study of how
homeopathy was defeated early in the 20c. In-fighting
and egotism instead of organizing. The history of the
AMA is illustrative as an opposite piece of history. The
allopaths came out of the lowest end of the society originally,
at least in the USA. They were the ne'er do wells that no one
knew what to do with. It was a one year study that made a doctor
originally. And it was politics, and probably some poor self-esteem
issues that pummeled that profession into power--not good healing!
Recently, there was a situation in my town that required some
organizing (not medical). Some people got together and did effect
change on the local school board. But those newly elected people
suddenly became the 'administration' and forgot their roots that
put them there. They became weakened and gave up their power to
effect the change they were voted to create. The organization that
effected the change let their elitism and divisiveness get the
better of them. Today that organization is defunct and the school
board is moving quickly back into the same place that it was several
years ago. The current election will show whether the community
has any handle on themselves or not since we have a chance to
elect a progressive person or a reactionary. The reactionaries
are pulling people at last minute from their constituencies to
take up their banner which is anti-community and anti-student.
This amazes me since I live in a community that is known for its
progressiveness and people claim they love it for that reason. Then
I watch right-wing reactionaries take over the school district time
and again.

I speak of this only to show that the dynamic in the field of homeopathy
is the same all over. If we don't learn to stick together, we will all
die separately. This does not mean we will all agree, nor should we.
However, I think there is room for many different styles of being--but
only if we don't try to attack and kill the other. The anti-Codex
movement which is just beginning to make it into the public consciousness is,
is already seeing this kind of divisiveness with one effort being made
to influence the FDA and the other attacking it for not concentrating
on the Congress. But the attacks are brutal and can only diminish the
efforts for all.
Tanya

seconded, thirded and fourthed!

Simon
"The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer."
Edward R Murrow

Nancy;
Well said!! And I thank you for your candor.
The profession of Homeopathy as well as Naturopathy are to be regulated in Ontario as well - and this is a good thing. I'm curious to know which Province you reside in.
It is a good thing - because with Provincial support we can begin to set standards in both practice and education. It has been my experience though that 'politicians' do not make good 'physicians' - they lack the knowledge and experience of the discipline and therefore need our assistance in order to make this modality readily available to the populace in a safe and controlled manner. I have had a myriad of experience with this - as I have personally drafted and have had passed legislation in this province that has changed policy and procedure for both the health care system -as well as policy and procedure in all hospitals in the province of Ontario. My experiences take me back to 2001 and lead me to today; and I remain active on both municipal and provincial levels. I clearly understand how slowly the wheels move when politics are involved - and I also understand the patient needs are completely ignored during this process.
Homeopathy will be regulated yes - but we will be self regulated as MD's are - following the formation of a College of Homeopaths - much like the College of Physicians and Surgeons - we shall be self disciplined as well - negating the need for organizations such as NASH and their 'prestigious designation' which you can purchase for $250US once you cough up your annual membership fee.
The PDF file regarding the advice on this matter presented to the Government of Ontario can be found at http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/pub ... ctions.pdf
This document was created with the intention to examine all 'alternative' modalities and place some kind of unified legislation that protects both the professional and the patient. The document is quite lengthily - but well worth the read!
Further inquiry can also be made directly to: Health Professions Regulatory Advisory Council 55 St. Clair Avenue West. Suite 806, Toronto Ontario, M4V 2Y7 .
There was an open call to all homeopaths - practicing and those aspiring to add their voice to this Advisory Committee. Sadly - only 97 responses were received before the deadline. This tells me that a very small number of people are deciding for the rest of us how and where Homeopathy will be practiced. There must be a larger community across Canada who should have been aware of this procedure - and one would think with legislation such as this pressing - our homeopathic organizations such as the one's listed in the previous post would be more than well aware of what is occurring in North America - and Canada is a very large part of North America - and it is obvious to me they are not. It is also obvious to me that the provinces of Canada and the collective states in the USA are not going to draft and pass identical legislation regarding Homeopathy. .
I am appreciative of the hard work and efforts of these 'activists' and the effort to shine some light on Homeopathy- my question is this -- how does being utterly disrespectful to another human being promote this so called 'activism'?? If we 'homeopaths' pay more attention to policy and procedure and this so called 'activism' --WHO will care for our patients? Like I said before -Homeopathy needs good physicians- because it is the individual physician that will have the close personal contact with the general public - it is said physician who will educate their patients and in doing that - educate the public through a positive experience where physician and patient both benefit from the relationship devoid of ego and activism.
Our number one concern must be and should always be the welfare and treatment of our patients. Having said that it should be understood that ego has no place in this at all. We are dealing with people's lives here - not an 'I'm right and you're wrong' scenario complete with insults as we had the unfortunate opportunity to read in the original post I responded to. With this kind of attitude - how will we ever gain the respect of government and the general public - let alone each others??
Again - thank you for your reply.
Karen DeNoble.

Hi Karen,

I live in Ontario.

I know about the proceedings you've described below, I know about the infighting between schools/organisations which led to the regulation process we now have, I know why there were ONLY 97 respondents to a part of the process which invited the vast majority of homeopaths to participate AFTER recommendations were submitted, and on such a limited level, in such a small span of time and allowed for only minimal community feedback, and, most importantly, I know the kind of "homeopathy" that's being taught in the Naturopathic college in Toronto, where many of the graduates will emerge (as they have in the past) with a fraction of the training in homeopathic medicine and philosophy as graduates who've actually studied with schools of homeopathic medicine. These NDs wouldn't be able to meet the standards of HANP, or the CHC, or even NASH, I believe--and these are all groups which have set high standards WE recognize but which the commission is ready to dismiss--and from what I understand, these ND graduates will sit on the same regulating board as homeopaths, in a College which values the naturopathic school's greater focus on conventional medical sciences over Hahnemann's scientific method, philosophy, and application of the materia medica. Since Naturopaths are more numerous in Ontario, much more established and subsidized (private insurance will cover their patients, but rarely covers ours!) and since they can say they're more like conventional medical doctors ("more scientific") than homeopaths are, I don't foresee things ending well for many well trained homeopaths in Ontario. Put that together with recent developments on who is making homeopathic remedies and selling them (3 labs with different names, but all one company!) and pay attention to the amount of money and energy this company is placing on selling polypharmacy remedies to MDs, dietitians, chiropractors, NDs who want to list another modality on their brochures, and just about anyone who'll buy their combos (but trying getting an account with this company if all you want to do is order single remedies for your patients!!!) and it's clear: the situation and this political process looks like a transparently divisive "regulation" that's being implemented--and that "board" is almost right out of our past in terms of textbook divide and conquer. The potential for disunity and ignorance exists on a grand scale. These are physicians using dissimilar methods of care, where one group has a lot to lose in terms of market share and credibility if well educated homeopaths are granted self regulation in this way.

I wish it were not so, and I sincerely hope Ontario homeopaths can work hard to see things turn around to actually benefit homeopathy and the public in Ontario. But it will take lots of effort from lots of dedicated homeopaths who need to become politically active so that we are able to create regulation of our profession on terms which will not create division and hardship for practitioners.

As for "personal attacks", I do not think this is what transpired in the discussion on this list. A good question was posed, an answer was posted, and another response was posted, from Dana; and I happen to agree, I hate to see duplication of institutions and efforts--it causes division and creates a waste of resources, as I said (and as I've seen happen, first hand, right here in Ontario). I saw no personal insults or name calling or derision being tossed around by either party, and I don't think the discussion has to "end" even on this list--in fact, I think some kind of unity can come out of this particular argument which would actually help us all as physicians in the end.
Regards,
Nancy
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Some excellent work is being done by OHA and TSHM in this area - and
both institutions of learning were extremely active in the formation
of the submission that was handed off to the Government. The work
these two particular institutions have done on this very topic is
staggering and we as homeopaths will benefit greatly from it.

I do understand your frustration though. Remember - this is Canada -
we are completly addicted to education and certification especially
in Ontario.

If memory serves me correctly - there was a three month window when
all those who chose ot lend a voice could submit opinions and advise
on the proposed policy and proceedure - the submissions were also
open to students of homeopathy at the Toronto School of Homeopathic
Medicine; and the collaborative materials were turned over to the
Province as I understand it.

The one issue I was very vocal on was in the 'designation' process -
and to ensure that there was a standard of learning straight across
the board - so that 'quacks' and 'kitchen table magicians' no longer
tainted our profession with inadequate practices and proceedures;
nor hindered the promotion of homeopathic medicine in Ontario.

Whether we like it or not - the health care system is a huge cash
grab. I believe you stated this before - there is no profit in
healthy people for the major drug companies who are positioning
themselves to be the major force in the retail of homeopathic
remedies. For this reason - I would support some kind of control
where homeopathic remedies can only be attained at a homeopathic
pharmacy.

Yes ND's have a strong hold for now -but they too suffered
much 'back in the day'; as did midwives, chiropractors, RMT'S etc. I
suppose working hand in hand with ND's would benefit us immensley as
it would benefit them to work hand in hand with us. Again - ego
takes most of the fun out of this idea more often than not.

I truly and honestly believe that the larger impact of homeopathy
will come once our patient bases increase - and more and more people
are exposed to the personal benefits of this modality. So long as we
are able to keep 'good health' as the main focus and 'profit and
loss' firmly in the background where it should be - homeopathy will
return as the mainstay in Canadian health care as it once was at the
turn of the century.

Little factoid for you - did you know the founder of Women's College
Hospital in Toronto was a homeopath?? [and a woman]. Try and find a
homeopath there now!! In contrast - there are homeopaths and ND'S
on staff at Sick Children's hospital.

It is a slow process - but it is in the works. That in iteslf
encourages me greatly.

Chins up! Face foreward! We will all get to our collective goal if
we all work together!!

Karen DeNoble
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Nancy Siciliana
wrote:
described below, I know about the infighting between
schools/organisations which led to the regulation process we now
have, I know why there were ONLY 97 respondents to a part of the
process which invited the vast majority of homeopaths to participate
AFTER recommendations were submitted, and on such a limited level,
in such a small span of time and allowed for only minimal community
feedback, and, most importantly, I know the kind of "homeopathy"
that's being taught in the Naturopathic college in Toronto, where
many of the graduates will emerge (as they have in the past) with a
fraction of the training in homeopathic medicine and philosophy as
graduates who've actually studied with schools of homeopathic
medicine. These NDs wouldn't be able to meet the standards of HANP,
or the CHC, or even NASH, I believe--and these are all groups which
have set high standards WE recognize but which the commission is
ready to dismiss--and from what I understand, these ND graduates
will sit on the same regulating board as homeopaths, in a College
which values the naturopathic school's greater focus on conventional
medical sciences over Hahnemann's scientific method, philosophy, and
application of the materia medica. Since Naturopaths are more
numerous in Ontario, much more established and subsidized (private
insurance will cover their patients, but rarely covers ours!) and
since they can say they're more like conventional medical doctors
("more scientific") than homeopaths are, I don't foresee things
ending well for many well trained homeopaths in Ontario. Put that
together with recent developments on who is making homeopathic
remedies and selling them (3 labs with different names, but all one
company!) and pay attention to the amount of money and energy this
company is placing on selling polypharmacy remedies to MDs,
dietitians, chiropractors, NDs who want to list another modality on
their brochures, and just about anyone who'll buy their combos (but
trying getting an account with this company if all you want to do is
order single remedies for your patients!!!) and it's clear: the
situation and this political process looks like a transparently
divisive "regulation" that's being implemented--and that "board" is
almost right out of our past in terms of textbook divide and
conquer. The potential for disunity and ignorance exists on a grand
scale. These are physicians using dissimilar methods of care, where
one group has a lot to lose in terms of market share and credibility
if well educated homeopaths are granted self regulation in this
way. I wish it were not so, and I sincerely hope Ontario homeopaths
can work hard to see things turn around to actually benefit
homeopathy and the public in Ontario. But it will take lots of
effort from lots of dedicated homeopaths who need to become
politically active so that we are able to create regulation of our
profession on terms which will not create division and hardship for
practitioners.As for "personal attacks", I do not think this is what
transpired in the discussion on this list. A good question was
posed, an answer was posted, and another response was posted, from
Dana; and I happen to agree, I hate to see duplication of
institutions and efforts--it causes division and creates a waste of
resources, as I said (and as I've seen happen, first hand, right
here in Ontario). I saw no personal insults or name calling or
derision being tossed around by either party, and I don't think the
discussion has to "end" even on this list--in fact, I think some
kind of unity can come out of this particular argument which would
actually help us all as physicians in the end. Regards,Nancy To:
minutus@...: kdenoble@...: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:25:43 -0400Subject:
[Minutus] Re: NBHE Homeopathic Board? Is it really necesssary?
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Some excellent work is also being done by CSH. And I wonder why it is the government didn't dare try this same divisive tactic with TCM practitioners, who are given full access to self-regulation with their own board, even though NDs are also allowed to practice TCM with only a fraction of the training Chinese Medical doctors must undergo. Parallel situation, and frankly, quite an ironic one, given that TCM has so much more in common paradigmatically with homeopathy than it ever will with Naturopathy.

I spent a great deal of time in the 90's doing environmental research and advocacy, as well as advocacy for two First Nations in the midst of a land claim which impacted the work my NGO was trying to do, and let me say, in comparison to the kind of public consultation which was required in any process where commissions were put in place to create reforms in legislation, this little 3 month "window" homeopaths were allotted, which took place long after the "back room" dealings with a limited non(in my opinion)-representative group of "homeopaths" had already approached the government about self-regulation and had already decided on the definition and process we'd all undergo, would have raised a veritable hate-storm of justifiable fury in our circles. For starters, we would have had press-conferences and media ready to report the unfairness of such a poor opportunity for community participation to the public at large. We'd have been prepared with educational materials and discussion group invitations, all geared to informing everyone who would be affected of exactly what was going on and how they could demand greater access for input for the community just by learning and speaking up. If our schools, our associations, students, and practicing homeopaths had been 1) aware of what had been happening, and 2) ready to respond and criticise the lack of public consultation affecting our community in the same way as those who are aware of the need for political action...let's just say things would have worked out very differently, and we might very likely be dealing with a substantially different process.

I too would like to see a very high "across the board" standard of learning, but I've been told by people who think this process is a good one that Homeopaths and this board will never have the right to that kind of "exclusivity" (don't blame me for that word--it's the one they used!). In other words, nothing will stop an ND who's never been made aware of Samuel Hahnemann (there are many in Ontario, right now!) from calling him or herself "a real homeopath" as they dole out Heel products in multitudes to each patient; nor will regulation stop an MD who wants to take advantage of the market draw of alternative medicines by setting up, say, a "Women's Homeopathy Clinic" along with her practice in conventional medicine, where she can go about using UNDA 1 through 1000 according to their "how to" sales literature, or treat one patient by using more than 30 individual high potency single remedies on a daily, rote prescribing basis. If we can't even have the right to determine that these practices are NOT homeopathy, and that titles like ND and MD are simply not enough of a qualification for safe practice...then what, exactly, is the point of a board?

Oh, yes, that's right...it'll cost us a lot of money to join every year, and in return, we theoretically won't be shut down as "quacks" as long as we do what we're told. (But all others with "real" medical training can do as they please!).

I did know about Emily Stowe, and I know she wasn't allowed to study at Toronto's school of medicine so she had to study at the New York school--a homeopathic medical school, one of many--quite a few of which not only allowed women as students but were also started by women who were homeopaths. It's quite ironic that she's seen as the country's first "female" doctor, just because she was allowed to set foot in the University of Toronto's medical school after she'd finished her training in the US--when clearly there were many women who were not allowed that access who had also trained in homeopathy in the States and/or were practicing as lay homeopaths all over Canada. There were many homeopathic hospitals in Toronto, and many homeopaths who practiced in all the hospitals, including at Sick Kid's. The homeopaths who are supposedly there now--nothing suggests they are using Hahnemann's methods at all, so I wish we'd stop calling them homeopaths (wherever you are Julian Winston, thank you for that extremely clear, common sense, rule of delineation).

Anyway, we have a ton of work to do. Hope we will try to keep abreast of the politics and act wisely, as a community.

Nancy
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Hi Tanya et al,

While I could not agree more about the problem of divisiveness, I
think that in this specific thread you are missing the point.

The NB.. asked whether they could promote their licensing or whatever
on this list. Dana then challenged them because they have a separate
organisation and do not join one of the other orgs, such as NASH etc.

For one thing, it is no business of anyone outside the NB.. to tell
them what to do, esp. telling them to scrap their own organisation.

It would not be even if the NB.. were the same as the others. But it
is not. It is specific for licensed practicioners. They surely have
every right to keep it that way if they think it is right.

Homeopaths cannot end division by one group trying to tell the others
what to do or what to be.

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Hi Nancy,

I do not think homeopaths will ever get licensed unless their training
covers a lot of conventional medicine - and of course this leaves less
time for homeopathy in a given time of training.

The license for NDs, Chripractors etc. is given for their knowlege of
the conventional medicine, not for the knowlege of whatever
alternative method they are going to use.

Anyway, as I have said before: as long as homeopaths cannot come to
terms on what they (all of them) will consider to be homeopathy, as
long as the classicals fight the combo people and cannot even agree
what "classical homeopathy" is supposed to be, there is no chance of
them working together.

On an aside: I have just copied more of the case records of v.
Boenninghausen. Other than what most homeopaths think, he did in the
majority of cases NOT prescribe single dose only - his method is much
more like that of the sequentialists: 2 to more different remedies
to be taken after each other or in alternation on a preset schedule,
e.g.. Nux vom, Puls, Rhus tox in alternation every 5 days.

Thus, was he a classical homeopath or not?

Before we do not come to grips with questions such as these we will
never be able to present a unified front.

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Nancy, your posts on this subject are informative and very clear. Thanks! Rosemary
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