SECRET CHEMISTRY OF HOMEOPATHY EXPOSED

[Irene de Villiers]

I find that direction of thinking more relevant to undersandig homeopathy. Does trituration cause clathrate formation?
If so why? If not why not?
....Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

Yes.
No molecule is made of other molecules.
Molecles are made of atoms.
That is true.
That is why I consider the ionization of those few molecules that do it, to be irrelevant.

In any case the ionization is into only two bits of stuff insteasd of one. At best that doubes the NUMBER of items/units involved (assuming ALL ionize which is not the case usually).
In homeopathy a doubling of a number is insignificant when looking at the number of particles in say a 1M solution.
who cares at that point whether you have the original number or twice as many. The fact that the pairs of ions ACT as one joimned molecule, means you do not really have doube anyway.
That 1M dilution is hard to understand either way and an exuse to double the numer is still not close to helping towards an explanation.
SO the ion thing is "much ado about nothing" .
WHat matters is the the starting "stuff" has specific characteristics that are still there after 1m dilution.
Ions do not help explain anything becasue Ions only have the starting characteristis if you count their PAIRS of ions as a unit, not the individual ions as units. Individually they lose the characteristics. They only have them if they are seen as UNdivided into ions.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Shannon Nelson]

Would there be any degree of ionization of e.g. silica (sand or glass), carbon (especially e.g. diamond, but I guess even the soft forms), or other very-non-soluble substances?

[John R. Benneth]

In a message dated 6/21/2015 9:15:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, minutus@yahoogroups.com writes:
Yes! Thank you for bringing this up, Shannon, you're abSOLUTELY right, except I think you meant to write trituration ,

1.
2.
Well, first point to make here in response to the "dissolution" question is that in dilution it would be more acccurate to say the solute is dissociated.
Copeland: "As interpreted by this theory, a chemical, technically an electrolyte, when dissolved, is dissociated into parts or particles smaller than the atoms and known as ions. The more dilute the solution the greater is the dissociation and consequently the atoms are less in number and the ions increased. In a solution infinitely dilute, the dissociation is absolute and the chemical is present only in a state of ionization.
The argument here goes beyond the classic imprinting theory for homeopathic chemistry . . or before it . . to say that once the ionization process begins it continues to produce a constant concentration of the solute plasma; technically its gone through a phase change. The phenomenon of constant concentration . . despite an apparent infinite number of dilutions, is credited with molecular splitting, but though I haven't seen any mention of it in this regard, and will probably get hammered for it, I think step dilutions evoke ionic expansion.
Yes, I think so. This goes back to the law of kosmotropy. The smaller the particle, the more organized the aqueous host will be around it.

1.

Thanks again for intelligent questions.
John Benneth

[Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD]

It does not matter.

The important fact here is that any substance, either on its own "merit" or after trituration, placed in water can be the subject of infinite dilution....and that has relevance to homeopathy.

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.

"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"

www.naturamedica.co.nz

[John R. Benneth]

In a message dated 6/21/2015 3:57:58 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, minutus@yahoogroups.com writes:
WRONG!
Google "define molecular dissociation"
"Dissociation in chemistry and biochemistry is a general process in which molecules (or ionic compounds such as salts, or complexes) separate or split into smaller particles such as atoms, ions or radicals, usually in a reversible manner".https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_(chemistry)
John Benneth

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[Irene de Villiers]

No. Carbon cannot ionize (diamonds). Nor silica (sand).

.........Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

It was my post of 16th that started the trituration subject. I wrote:

"WHat I think we need to look at in more depth, is the point Hahnemann reached, when he realized you could not simply make a liquid remedy in dilution from a SOLID substance.
He used three triturations first before going to liquid.
I would like to be a miniaturized individual able to see at the molecular level what those solid molecules or metal crystal lattices are doing exactly, during the trituration to render them suitable for dilution in liquid, when the original starting solid is not able to be diluted in liquid.
Can someone explain that one to me please?"
.... to get rid of the impurities.

..but that is not how we use it in homeopathy where we use it to mash and break up chunks into small bits and retain ALL the substances.
But do we really know there is not something more to it than breaking up the chunks ito smaller ones?
as Hahnemann said when choosing trituration for solids to 3C.
why?
Dissociation has a specific meaning and has nothing to do with whether or not something dissolves.
It only defines behavior of SOME molecules AFTER they dissolve.
It has nothing to do with WHETHER they dissolve.

SO really you shoud drop the dissociation ides. It can not possibly have relevance.
Literally an electrolyte (a VERY small minority of molecules)
Kinds like cuttig na lock of cheese in half. It is now two smaller blocks ut it is stll cheese. So what? Thi sis to fo with how cheese looks AFTER it is dissolved. It has nothing to do with whether it dissolves.
Why should we care how it looks after it dissolves?
No the atoms are the same in number.
The molecules are separated into two parts which just means they are not stuck as one glob but are two globs called ions.
Same total atoms.
Same total substance present.
There are zero ions till a molecule splits into two ionized parts.
Proving what with regard to this electrolyte?
Let's take NaCl, it ionizes into N+ and Cl-
So if you start with ten molecules of NaCL, you end up with 10 ions of Na+ and ten ions of Cl-
They still BEHAVE as 10 units of NaCl despiute being separated by a few water molecules into Na+ and Cl-.
What does that prove for electrolytes that actually behave this way?
you are not making sense
still you lack a reference point
There is no "plasma".
Ionization happens at a specific percentage for a given temperatre, pressure and dilution, and some of those NaCl molecules will still be in NaCl form. But even if ALL of them are in Na+ and Cl- form, what are you trying to say about it? There are stil the sae NUMBER of Na atoms and Cl atoms present, that does not change for electrolytes, they just are a tad bit more adventurous than other molecule atoms as to where they hang out.
No, you misunderstzand phase changes in chemistry.
A phase change is defined as a change from say solid phase to liquid phase (eg when you melt ice) - or from liquid phase to gas phase (as when you boil water) , or from solid phase to gas phase (as when you warm dry ice).
Phases are solid, liquid, gas, there is no plasma.
Plasma is the term used for modern screen manufacture involving GAS particles that are ionized.
Dilution of NaCl or other electrolytes in water, does not change the dissolved salt solution into chrged particles of gas, no matter how much you dilute it

So - no plasma involved.
What phenomenon?
Did you invent this ?
There is no such concept as molecular splitting either.
Even electrolyte dissociation into ions is not "molecular splitting".
perhaps becasue there is no such thing?
That implies (incorrectly) that only electrolytes can be homeopathic starting substances.
They at least can ionize, though they do not split.
Odd positive response from you, Last time I mentioned clathrates you threw men of straw around
Hopefully they finally got diluted out:-)
Law of??
principle maybe.
However - THIS involves the opposite type of moleclar behavior to ionization.
It needs a hydrophobic compound (not hydrophilic like electrolytes) to induce water molecules to collect around it.

From Lehninger's Principles of Biochemistry, 4th edition, pg.52
".........dissolving hydrophobic compounds in water produces a measurable decrease in entropy. Water molecules in the immediate vicinity of a nonpolar solute are constrained in their possible orientations as they form a highly ordered cagelike shell around each solute molecule."
So this behavior works best with NO ionization or polarization - as those polarizing or ionizing charges would tend to align with the dipoles of the water molecules HAMPERING the formation of water molecules into higher ordered structure surrounding the substance.
Indeed polar/ionic substances do not work well to force water to make cages arounf a substance dissolved in it.
but when nonpolar protein is surrounded by a water cage, it tends to stabilize the protein.

So what is happening during trituration with sugar......usually lactose monohydrate, which is essentially a glucose unit plus a galactose unit. Lactose (like water) is a polar molecule. So is sucrose.
By the way, HOW polar molecules dissolve has to do with their polarity.
Wen the attraction between water molecules and say lactose, is higher than the attraction between two sucrose molecules, it dissolves.
It does not dissociate - its plar parts are merely attracted to the water polar parts so that they "stick around"
It is also why water is liquid and not gas. The hydrogen and oxygen polar parts attract ech other strongly enough to "glue" the stuff together just due to attraction of polarization, makig water liquid and not ga=s on our planet depite its low weight/mass. (lucky for us)
What do you mean by co-solvents?
Okay but not very well said IMO but then it is wikistuff. Not my most loved info source:-)
Anyone here has a right to ask questions; it's not your place to judge them (the people asking or the questions asked).
Less pedestal, more respect, would be nicer.

Namaste,
Irene

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

We all know that happens. It's in Hahnemann's writing.

The discussion was initiated to consider HOW it works:-)
And..also wondering if knowing that woud help explain other "how it works" matters.

For example does the polar structures of lactose (or sucrose) cause some molecular positioning during trituration? Or is it purely making sure the starting substances are well broken down to individual molecules.

Does a sugar pill hold the homeopathic energy in a specific way, if so what way? Is it the same way molecules arrange in trituration?
The curious want to know:-)
Even if it "doesn't matter".
Namaste,
Irene

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Shannon Nelson]

My *thought* -- which is only that -- was to wonder whether something analogous to the clathrate formation in water, might occur in the e.g. lactose during trituration.

Thinking of Joe's response, to the effect that any substance placed in water leaves behind its trace imprint, it would be interesting to compare triturated versions of e.g. silica, or anything fully non-soluble, with a version prepared from the "water", run up to similar potency.

I seem to remember that there are a few substances that have versions prepared both ways, e.g. "gem waters" (I can't remember what name is used for them) run up in potency, that also have a version prepared by homeopathy's usual processes, triturate and then dilute-and-succuss.

I seem to remember (this is from years ago) someone (maybe Joe?) saying that the two seemed to act similarly but not identically. I wish I had more memories or examples closer in my memory.

I think that this kind of comparison can be useful in exploring some of our boundaries and reasons.