On this point I agree with Roger and Irene. The mystery of the universe is so vast. As Homeopaths to say that something out of our expertise is NOT credible is hypocritical. It does not matter our opinions whether we believe or disbelieve in Astrology or Homeopathy. My only comment is to wonder at the majesty of the mystery of the universe and know that something, God or otherwise, has constructed a wondrous, interconnected, interrelated, web of synchronicity. All disciplines, arts, sciences are connected, are useful, are important. All is sacred! No group should hold sway over anothers truth, wisdom or experince. All that is lacking is another willingness to have an open mind and investigate and not believe blindly. (sounds like Homeopaths asking the general population to believe in their science/art discipline.) Astrology is no different. If the moon affects each living thing on this planet profoundly....it is NOT a stretch to say that the planets affect us as well. All you need is an open mind to investigate this. This is all we ask of potential Homeopathic clients...just try it and you will see the benefits.
I will get off my soap box now.
Have a Good Day. Domenic
---In minutus@yahoogroups.com, wrote :
I agree with Irene, as usual. People who disbelieve astrology set up tests in ignorance which shows that astrology is bunk. If those tests were constructed with a deeper understanding of the nuances of astrology the tests would show that astrology was real.
Also, since there can be no double blinding with astrology by its very nature, then it is a little difficult to do that gold standard of double blind randomized testing This is exactly the a problem with proving homeopathy, because homeopathy is so individualized. The same could be said of traditional Chinese medicine and Ayurveda. Most people need to eat leafy green salads; I get constipated if I eat a lot of leafy greens. Does this prove or disprove Ayurveda? But I will stick with my observation that leafy green salads constipate me and go very light on leafy greens.
I believe that Irene's major point is that just because we don't know the mechanism of something doesn't mean that it is not real. NO ONE knows the mechanism of consciousness, but I am pretty sure that I am conscious (playful sarcasm).
Roger Bird
________________________________
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 03:30:26 -0800
Subject: [Minutus] Re Astrology - was Flu
What can be demonstrated is validiy - much as it is easy to show validity of homeopathy.
How it works, or why it works? As with homepathy, it is uncertain.
The same applies to Numerology. It is eqally valid but hard to explain scientifically - though there are books on it. I found one of them but even as a math major myself, I found the book extremely hard to followaadn gave up before I was halfway. It needs an up to date mathematician to follow it. A bit like books on any in-depth subject requiring more understanding of the terms than the average reader may have.
i do not think that is a reason to assume it unscientific, any more than we assume homeopathy unscientific. Nothing proves asttronomoy or numerology or other systems keyed to universe objects or activities, to be unscientific, to put it another way. Can you prove it is unscientific?
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
Re Astrology - was Flu
-
Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
- Posts: 2279
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Re Astrology - was Flu
Apparently there is a need for "science" in astrology....but first 2 things:
1. there is a vast difference between the study of celestial bodies, aka astronomy, and how they influence each other, and some of the interpretations made by people who use the discomfort of others to make a buck, aka astrology....with some exceptions I have personally encountered.
2. I do not use astrological concepts in my practice at all, for reasons that will be clear further.
Setting aside the physical and energetic effects stars, planets, cosmic rays and other niceties have on each other, the concept of influence can be related in quantum physics through one concept: entanglement.
Entanglement (look it up please) is the reciprocal relationship that persists between two (and now according to recent discoveries, many more) objects that were once close but are now separated; experimental demonstration has been done (again, look it up) with the spin of entangled electrons that is changing simultaneously, without delay, meaning transfer of information faster than light....simultaneous.
At the beginning of our universe, be it a Big Bang or anything else, everything was condensed in one single point....meaning that even at astronomical distances, electron, neutrons, protons, quarks, mesons, muons, gravitons, etc,....are still entangled. Hence it is compatible with quantum physics to imagine that one electron in my body is entangled with one in the body of Grock, a conscious intelligent octopus living in the Rigel constellation; if for some reason the spin in his electron changes, mine will change immediately. And if Grock and I are more entangled and the precise particles are located in specific areas, when he gets diarrhea, I would become constipated.... Extend that to a net of direct and indirect (single and multiple degrees) relationships in the universe, and you have the universal connections.
Which explains how difficult it is to use that because of the almost infinite number of connections that are possible and hence open to interpretation as done in "astrology"...and why I do not use it at all
Which also explains the assertion made by the practitioners of transcendental meditation, that if a threshold of people do TM at the same time, it might change the behaviour/thought pattern of the rest of the population...as we are apparently entangled, having originated from the same primordial soup...
Joe and Grock.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
www.naturamedica.co.nz
________________________________
1. there is a vast difference between the study of celestial bodies, aka astronomy, and how they influence each other, and some of the interpretations made by people who use the discomfort of others to make a buck, aka astrology....with some exceptions I have personally encountered.
2. I do not use astrological concepts in my practice at all, for reasons that will be clear further.
Setting aside the physical and energetic effects stars, planets, cosmic rays and other niceties have on each other, the concept of influence can be related in quantum physics through one concept: entanglement.
Entanglement (look it up please) is the reciprocal relationship that persists between two (and now according to recent discoveries, many more) objects that were once close but are now separated; experimental demonstration has been done (again, look it up) with the spin of entangled electrons that is changing simultaneously, without delay, meaning transfer of information faster than light....simultaneous.
At the beginning of our universe, be it a Big Bang or anything else, everything was condensed in one single point....meaning that even at astronomical distances, electron, neutrons, protons, quarks, mesons, muons, gravitons, etc,....are still entangled. Hence it is compatible with quantum physics to imagine that one electron in my body is entangled with one in the body of Grock, a conscious intelligent octopus living in the Rigel constellation; if for some reason the spin in his electron changes, mine will change immediately. And if Grock and I are more entangled and the precise particles are located in specific areas, when he gets diarrhea, I would become constipated.... Extend that to a net of direct and indirect (single and multiple degrees) relationships in the universe, and you have the universal connections.
Which explains how difficult it is to use that because of the almost infinite number of connections that are possible and hence open to interpretation as done in "astrology"...and why I do not use it at all
Which also explains the assertion made by the practitioners of transcendental meditation, that if a threshold of people do TM at the same time, it might change the behaviour/thought pattern of the rest of the population...as we are apparently entangled, having originated from the same primordial soup...
Joe and Grock.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
www.naturamedica.co.nz
________________________________
-
Soroush Ebrahimi
- Moderator
- Posts: 4510
- Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:00 pm
Re: Re Astrology - was Flu
Dear Domenic
I am fully aware that there are many things in this Universe about which we are not even aware. (Some 150 years ago man kind did not even know about Radio waves!)
I am also aware that the Sun, Moon and the planets of the solar system (being closest to us than the rest of the Universe) have an effect on all the other bodies in the solar system.
(Please also note the effects of Sun's and Moon's rays leading to the remedies Sol and Lun.
Note also Hahnemann's instructions as to when parts of the plants should be harvested for remedy production, taking account of the position of the Sun (e.g. dawn) and phase of the Moon.)
I am also aware that there are authentic religious writings about the effects of these bodies on us and for example to take care about times of conception etc.
My gripe is that we have no scientific basis (cp Provings) on these effects to bring them into our practise of homeopathy.
(You cannot give a 12th of the population Nat-m!)
Show me the proof, then I will consider them with an open mind.
Rgds
Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 14 January 2015 23:09
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Minutus] Re Astrology - was Flu
On this point I agree with Roger and Irene. The mystery of the universe is so vast. As Homeopaths to say that something out of our expertise is NOT credible is hypocritical. It does not matter our opinions whether we believe or disbelieve in Astrology or Homeopathy. My only comment is to wonder at the majesty of the mystery of the universe and know that something, God or otherwise, has constructed a wondrous, interconnected, interrelated, web of synchronicity. All disciplines, arts, sciences are connected, are useful, are important. All is sacred! No group should hold sway over anothers truth, wisdom or experince. All that is lacking is another willingness to have an open mind and investigate and not believe blindly. (sounds like Homeopaths asking the general population to believe in their science/art discipline.) Astrology is no different. If the moon affects each living thing on this planet profoundly....it is NOT a stretch to say that the planets affect us as well. All you need is an open mind to investigate this. This is all we ask of potential Homeopathic clients...just try it and you will see the benefits.
I will get off my soap box now.
Have a Good Day. Domenic
---In minutus@yahoogroups.com , > wrote :
I agree with Irene, as usual. People who disbelieve astrology set up tests in ignorance which shows that astrology is bunk. If those tests were constructed with a deeper understanding of the nuances of astrology the tests would show that astrology was real.
Also, since there can be no double blinding with astrology by its very nature, then it is a little difficult to do that gold standard of double blind randomized testing This is exactly the a problem with proving homeopathy, because homeopathy is so individualized. The same could be said of traditional Chinese medicine and Ayurveda. Most people need to eat leafy green salads; I get constipated if I eat a lot of leafy greens. Does this prove or disprove Ayurveda? But I will stick with my observation that leafy green salads constipate me and go very light on leafy greens.
I believe that Irene's major point is that just because we don't know the mechanism of something doesn't mean that it is not real. NO ONE knows the mechanism of consciousness, but I am pretty sure that I am conscious (playful sarcasm).
Roger Bird
________________________________
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 03:30:26 -0800
Subject: [Minutus] Re Astrology - was Flu
What can be demonstrated is validiy - much as it is easy to show validity of homeopathy.
How it works, or why it works? As with homepathy, it is uncertain.
The same applies to Numerology. It is eqally valid but hard to explain scientifically - though there are books on it. I found one of them but even as a math major myself, I found the book extremely hard to followaadn gave up before I was halfway. It needs an up to date mathematician to follow it. A bit like books on any in-depth subject requiring more understanding of the terms than the average reader may have.
i do not think that is a reason to assume it unscientific, any more than we assume homeopathy unscientific. Nothing proves asttronomoy or numerology or other systems keyed to universe objects or activities, to be unscientific, to put it another way. Can you prove it is unscientific?
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
I am fully aware that there are many things in this Universe about which we are not even aware. (Some 150 years ago man kind did not even know about Radio waves!)
I am also aware that the Sun, Moon and the planets of the solar system (being closest to us than the rest of the Universe) have an effect on all the other bodies in the solar system.
(Please also note the effects of Sun's and Moon's rays leading to the remedies Sol and Lun.
Note also Hahnemann's instructions as to when parts of the plants should be harvested for remedy production, taking account of the position of the Sun (e.g. dawn) and phase of the Moon.)
I am also aware that there are authentic religious writings about the effects of these bodies on us and for example to take care about times of conception etc.
My gripe is that we have no scientific basis (cp Provings) on these effects to bring them into our practise of homeopathy.
(You cannot give a 12th of the population Nat-m!)
Show me the proof, then I will consider them with an open mind.
Rgds
Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 14 January 2015 23:09
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Minutus] Re Astrology - was Flu
On this point I agree with Roger and Irene. The mystery of the universe is so vast. As Homeopaths to say that something out of our expertise is NOT credible is hypocritical. It does not matter our opinions whether we believe or disbelieve in Astrology or Homeopathy. My only comment is to wonder at the majesty of the mystery of the universe and know that something, God or otherwise, has constructed a wondrous, interconnected, interrelated, web of synchronicity. All disciplines, arts, sciences are connected, are useful, are important. All is sacred! No group should hold sway over anothers truth, wisdom or experince. All that is lacking is another willingness to have an open mind and investigate and not believe blindly. (sounds like Homeopaths asking the general population to believe in their science/art discipline.) Astrology is no different. If the moon affects each living thing on this planet profoundly....it is NOT a stretch to say that the planets affect us as well. All you need is an open mind to investigate this. This is all we ask of potential Homeopathic clients...just try it and you will see the benefits.
I will get off my soap box now.
Have a Good Day. Domenic
---In minutus@yahoogroups.com , > wrote :
I agree with Irene, as usual. People who disbelieve astrology set up tests in ignorance which shows that astrology is bunk. If those tests were constructed with a deeper understanding of the nuances of astrology the tests would show that astrology was real.
Also, since there can be no double blinding with astrology by its very nature, then it is a little difficult to do that gold standard of double blind randomized testing This is exactly the a problem with proving homeopathy, because homeopathy is so individualized. The same could be said of traditional Chinese medicine and Ayurveda. Most people need to eat leafy green salads; I get constipated if I eat a lot of leafy greens. Does this prove or disprove Ayurveda? But I will stick with my observation that leafy green salads constipate me and go very light on leafy greens.
I believe that Irene's major point is that just because we don't know the mechanism of something doesn't mean that it is not real. NO ONE knows the mechanism of consciousness, but I am pretty sure that I am conscious (playful sarcasm).
Roger Bird
________________________________
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 03:30:26 -0800
Subject: [Minutus] Re Astrology - was Flu
What can be demonstrated is validiy - much as it is easy to show validity of homeopathy.
How it works, or why it works? As with homepathy, it is uncertain.
The same applies to Numerology. It is eqally valid but hard to explain scientifically - though there are books on it. I found one of them but even as a math major myself, I found the book extremely hard to followaadn gave up before I was halfway. It needs an up to date mathematician to follow it. A bit like books on any in-depth subject requiring more understanding of the terms than the average reader may have.
i do not think that is a reason to assume it unscientific, any more than we assume homeopathy unscientific. Nothing proves asttronomoy or numerology or other systems keyed to universe objects or activities, to be unscientific, to put it another way. Can you prove it is unscientific?
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
-
Irene de Villiers
- Posts: 3237
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:00 pm
Re: Re Astrology - was Flu
or homeopaths or doctors or veterinarians or chiropractors or... and the list goes on.
Every profession has its cheats and unethical members, which is not an excuse to diss the entire profession. As "point one" against astrology I do not find that a valid point. It holds no substance.
They may or may not have any validitiy in homeopathy, I know too little to say at tis point.
I know enough to understand that astrology is a valid area of study and research with usefulness to idividuals using it.
The effects predicted by astology are not explicable by entanglement alone, as it seems you have assumed.
I believe you are making blanket statements in an area you have not investigated, and are making invalid assumptions and conclusions.
Astrology is no more "open to interpretation" than is homeopathy.
For example you were born at a specific time in a specifc place and the planets were in specific positions then too. That is not open to interpretation. Resultant effects are pre-set by those positions rather than "interpreted". ANy "interpretation" is in the way the consequences are written so as to inform you best how to benefit from the knowledge.
Much like a homeopath informs the client of a remedy match and how they might benefit from its use.
Astrology is a valid subject, and is not "astrology" any more than our profession here is "homeopathy".
You once were a cardiologist with likely the same skepticism of homeopathy and acupuncture as you now have of astrology:-)
Surey the open mind approach was a lesson then, to apply to other subjects in future as well?
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
Every profession has its cheats and unethical members, which is not an excuse to diss the entire profession. As "point one" against astrology I do not find that a valid point. It holds no substance.
They may or may not have any validitiy in homeopathy, I know too little to say at tis point.
I know enough to understand that astrology is a valid area of study and research with usefulness to idividuals using it.
The effects predicted by astology are not explicable by entanglement alone, as it seems you have assumed.
I believe you are making blanket statements in an area you have not investigated, and are making invalid assumptions and conclusions.
Astrology is no more "open to interpretation" than is homeopathy.
For example you were born at a specific time in a specifc place and the planets were in specific positions then too. That is not open to interpretation. Resultant effects are pre-set by those positions rather than "interpreted". ANy "interpretation" is in the way the consequences are written so as to inform you best how to benefit from the knowledge.
Much like a homeopath informs the client of a remedy match and how they might benefit from its use.
Astrology is a valid subject, and is not "astrology" any more than our profession here is "homeopathy".
You once were a cardiologist with likely the same skepticism of homeopathy and acupuncture as you now have of astrology:-)
Surey the open mind approach was a lesson then, to apply to other subjects in future as well?
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."