narcissism

[Tanya Marquette]

I think this is a very tricky type of understanding.
My understanding is that anything that is out of balance is fair game for healing.
Homeopathy won’t change basic character, but will/can moderate the extremes that are unhealthy.
As for narcissism it seems to me to be an imbalance based on social or societal conditions which
can include toxins like vaccines.

We have all seen people make major changes in their lives when given a good remedy. People leaving rotten
relationships, for example. People changing their relationship to success for another.

t

[Shannon Nelson]

Agreed -- but if the person needs to *learn* something, or agree, or understand, or decide -- those things will not be done by any remedy. But the remedy may make it *possible* for them to do those things. I do think it's an important distinction; remedies can't take the place of decent parenting and etc., though they certainly can help.

[Carol Orr]

"Is not narcissism growing since spanks are forbidden ?

Ok I am in a way kidding, in another way just thinking here '

There was a book written a few years ago by an American about how the French
bring up their children. She wondered why her kids were so awful and the
French kids were so well behaved. I can't remember what she figured out about
it..maybe you know as a French person...or someone else remembers the book.
All I remember is that all French children are taught to say Bon Jour to
everyone and when they are brought home from the hospital they start talking
immediately to them..."this is our house, this is our living room, this is the
kitchen and this is your bedroom" or something like that.

[Tanya Marquette]

Shannon—I need to say that it seems we are not talking about the same thing at all.

While self-centeredness is clearly a part of the Narcissistic personality disorder, it is not the essence of the state.
The state of being is highly disordered. It may function well but cannot tolerate any criticism and will/may totally fall apart
Anger may be one form of expression but not necessarily. The crash down can often become one of total dysfunction.
The person will interpret the most mild disagreement as a major assault on their integrity. The child may not ever be
able to accept boundaries set by others regardless of the effort by the parent, teacher or other authority. There is a
sense of having been destroyed in some way that is impossible for the Narcissist to handle; their very sense of being
has been put on the chopping block from their perspective. Further, they will never apologize because that means
they are failures and that just cannot be tolerated. And everything is black vs white. There are no shades of gray so
you cannot effect mutual understandings. They are right; must be right and you are wrong. Because of this power and
control is virtually studied so the Narcissist can always be on top and by right. And because of this rigidity, there is
never any forgiveness. They may compensate with learned social skills but will always look for a way to vent their
rage and often it can be at anyone to whom they feel access.

This is not just spoiled brat behavior.

t

[Dale Moss]

Yes. There was an interesting long piece on the web years ago called "Malignant Self-Love," as I recall. Can't recall the author's name, but he certainly attributed pathological narcissism to developmental problems early in life that cause the person to get stuck in infantile emotional responses. They never grow up, in effect. That, certainly, was my experience.
Peace,
Dale

[Fran Sheffield]

Talking about 'spare the rod and spoil the child', I knew a mother who had about 6 children from memory (some were adopted or fostered) - all youngish - who were well-behaved, courteous, patient and co-operative. I used to look on in amazement as she would wait in lines with them at the shops as they never created any trouble for her or the other shoppers. I asked her what her secret was and she said, "Tabasco Sauce". Apparently she would put a drop of Tabasco sauce on their tongue at the first sign of should-know-better disobedience and after that only had to warn them if there was a repeat of bad behaviour. And before people start thinking child abuse, these children were happy, pleasant, and appeared on course for successful and rewarding lives. I don't know what happened once the teen years hit.

[Tanya Marquette]

Sam Vaknin is the author. He has a book now. Will look for the article that I can read later.

thanks for the reference.

I think we see all kinds of pathologies from stuck points in people’s lives. Often we find they are from traumatic events
that shamed, scared, threatened the person in a way that prevented them from absorbing or discharging the experience
so they can move forward in their lives. It is like they grow up around the event which gets buried beyond easy memory
but that event remains gnawing like unfinished business. My grand daughter, fostered in to us, was like that. She
could not let herself grow no matter what we did as she was holding on to having her biological mother again, wanting to
be that little 2 yr old taken screaming out of that childhood home. This need to go back to that place held
firm even when she came to understand some basic truths about her biological mother. After turning 18 she went to
live with this woman and it seems to have enabled her to begin to let go of those stuck points. I am hearing a much more
responsible and forward looking person when we talk now. But it was hell living with her for 10 yrs. And despite all
the fighting and temper tantrums and destructive behavior, she managed to hear all the lessons we offered and took
them in as if she put them also on hold.

t

[Tanya Marquette]

A lot of the situation is setting boundaries that pertain to how you behave in the public sphere.
Children are often held very tight to keep them in line, but often are let loose in public.
it teaches them to have no respect for others. Have you ever been in a supermarket with a little
kid sitting in the shopping basket seat with the legs hanging out. There you are standing in line
and the kid starts to kick at you and the mother is oblivious of this behavior. I tend to give
“the Look” to the kid while shaking my head NO. The kid will look at me, may try again and when
my eyebrows go up and my face gets real stern the child will then
recoil having understood his behavior was not going to get over with me. I often think that is one
child that I will not like very much when it gets older.

t

[Shannon Nelson]

Thanks Tanya,

I see what you mean -- that does sound like something way beyond issues of upbringing, and does sound like something I'd be searching remedies for. Would love to hear if anyone has had experience with treating it.

Shannon

[Carol Orr]

Quote from article about the book Bringing up Bebe

Could it be that teaching children how to delay gratification—as
middle-class French parents do—actually makes them calmer and more
resilient? Might this partly explain why middle-class American kids, who are
in general more used to getting what they want right away, so often fall apart
under stress?

http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB100014 ... 1457473816

(The Wall Street Journal, Why French Parents are Superior)