#6
To understand how homeopathy works, it is better to switch to another empirical field. Understanding how an acute condition changes into a related chronic disease is a prerequisite for getting the basic idea. Let me give you clear examples. How an acute Varicella Zoster Virus (VZV) infection (chicken pox) may change to deeper chronic conditions like demyelinating diseases such as Multiple Sclerosis? How an EBV acute infection may lead to Hodgkin's lymphoma or nasopharyngeal carcinoma? How a simple acute infection by Rhinovirus may switch to a chronic allergic sinusitis? Why this change of state happens in only a small fraction of a specific infected population? Is there a systemic immunological shift underlying 'acute to chronic' switch? If so, can we forcefully reverse the direction of this shift? Can we push the immunological state of the patient suffering from a chronic condition (those that are infection-based like the above examples) to a related acute state? Hopefully, the immune system is unable to be in both acute and chronic states of a specific infection. This means that if you successfully and completely (ideally) reverse the 'acute to chronic' switch, you will witness acute manifestations of the related non-contagious chronic conditions of above examples while their chronic aspects fades away. I will go deeper in this subject in the next posts.
Kind regards,
Ardavan Shahrdar
Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ardavan- ... 2103925737
Minutus website will be uploaded with a new URL soon
Post 6
-
John Harvey
- Posts: 1331
- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:00 pm
Re: Post 6
Interesting, Ardavan! -- and of course reminiscent of Hahnemann's observations concerning the positive value of reestablishing a suppressed infection (though I respectfully decline to conclude that you're necessarily talking about the same thing, since I don't know where you're heading!).
Kind regards,
John
Kind regards,
John
-
Ardavan Shahrdar
- Moderator
- Posts: 1277
- Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2000 10:00 pm
Re: Post 6
#6
Staying in an empirical mode, we should verify the hypothesis that there are different immunological states responsible each for acute and chronic-related manifestations in any considered viral infection category. Let me clarify this by an example. We know what the acute infection of Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) is. Being asymptomatic in early years, infection by this virus causes acute pharyngitis in ages over 4-5 and later is responsible for well-known infectious mononucleosis (IM). It is well established that EBV is responsible for chronic devastating conditions like endemic Burkitt’s lymphoma, Hodgkin’s lymphoma, nasopharyngeal carcinoma, certain types of oral malignancies and gastric cancers. The question is this… is there specific different immunological states in acute infections caused by EBV and above-mentioned chronic conditions? Studies on EBV immune responses show that there are different systemic immunological postures. For example, in acute primary EBV infection, as in IM, there is a T-Helper 1 (Th1) immune response against intracellular infection by this DNA virus. Th1 responses are pro-inflammatory immune responses that aim at killing intracellular parasites, as here in EBV infections. Immune response has a Th1/Th2 polarity not being able to be in these two modes simultaneously. In chronic related conditions in EBV example, this polarity shifts to a Th2 response. Th2 response is unable to ‘see’ inside the cells, so unable to control the intracellular EBV infection thus providing opportunities for carcinogenic effects of this virus. In other words, in conditions like Hodgkin’s lymphoma, we have Th2 response and not Th1’s. One of the novel strategies in immunotherapy of Hodgkin’s lymphoma is to push the immunological state by a vaccine-type agent (A remedy!) toward EBV specific immune control (a Th1 response). This means pushing the chronic state towards a primary infection state related to EBV. Isn’t this exciting? This means that ‘what is to be cured’ in Hodgkin’s lymphoma is the ‘acute underlying EBV primary infection’! We miss Hahnemann here in modern days!
Kind regards,
Ardavan Shahrdar
Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ardavan-S ... 2103925737
Minutus website will be uploaded with a new URL soon
Staying in an empirical mode, we should verify the hypothesis that there are different immunological states responsible each for acute and chronic-related manifestations in any considered viral infection category. Let me clarify this by an example. We know what the acute infection of Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) is. Being asymptomatic in early years, infection by this virus causes acute pharyngitis in ages over 4-5 and later is responsible for well-known infectious mononucleosis (IM). It is well established that EBV is responsible for chronic devastating conditions like endemic Burkitt’s lymphoma, Hodgkin’s lymphoma, nasopharyngeal carcinoma, certain types of oral malignancies and gastric cancers. The question is this… is there specific different immunological states in acute infections caused by EBV and above-mentioned chronic conditions? Studies on EBV immune responses show that there are different systemic immunological postures. For example, in acute primary EBV infection, as in IM, there is a T-Helper 1 (Th1) immune response against intracellular infection by this DNA virus. Th1 responses are pro-inflammatory immune responses that aim at killing intracellular parasites, as here in EBV infections. Immune response has a Th1/Th2 polarity not being able to be in these two modes simultaneously. In chronic related conditions in EBV example, this polarity shifts to a Th2 response. Th2 response is unable to ‘see’ inside the cells, so unable to control the intracellular EBV infection thus providing opportunities for carcinogenic effects of this virus. In other words, in conditions like Hodgkin’s lymphoma, we have Th2 response and not Th1’s. One of the novel strategies in immunotherapy of Hodgkin’s lymphoma is to push the immunological state by a vaccine-type agent (A remedy!) toward EBV specific immune control (a Th1 response). This means pushing the chronic state towards a primary infection state related to EBV. Isn’t this exciting? This means that ‘what is to be cured’ in Hodgkin’s lymphoma is the ‘acute underlying EBV primary infection’! We miss Hahnemann here in modern days!
Kind regards,
Ardavan Shahrdar
Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ardavan-S ... 2103925737
Minutus website will be uploaded with a new URL soon
-
Irene de Villiers
- Posts: 3237
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:00 pm
Re: Post 6
This is not strictly true.
The body's immune system only has one set of "rules" by which the immune system functions.
It is correct that there are Th-1 cytokines and Th-2 cytokines, however either can be dominant in a specific illness, it depends on the illness type. Th-1 cytokines are part of the FIRST line of defence again both acute and chronic conditions or invasions (including allergens, viruses, bacteria, parasites, cancers, dead body cells, whatever is unwanted). THe TH-1 cytokines direct thymus derived cells to destoy and/or remove these unwanted objects using various mechanisms according to what is unwanted. For example Killer cells attack cancer, and neutrophils and then macrophage engulf allergens, viruses, dead cells etc.
This is normal Th-1 activity and will happen as lomg as the Thymus is healthy.
(Unfortunately it is very easilt damaged such as b y chemicals, stress hormone cortisol, vaccines and cortiso-steroids, chemotherapy drugs and magnesium stearate to name just a few)
If the invasion is in very large numbers which overwhelm the thymus response, such as for exampe a measles infection with a poor thymus response, then the cytokines will trigger Th-2 cytokines which are in charge of the antoibody system in the bone marrow.
These are like mass troops who come to the rescue by making antibodies against whatever is invading, which however takes time. A whole antibody manufacturing plant is diurected by Th-2 cytokines.
Vaccines are supposed to make antibodies ahead of need, but they instead add damage to the thymus and skew the immune system so that it is always using TH-2 response as the thymus is too damaged. It even uses Th-2 response when there are hardly any numbers becasu ethe Thymus is so weak it is easily overwhelmed.
THIS predisposes TH-2 skewed diseases.
It is important to know that NO chronic disease can be helped in any way by antibodies. It HAS to use FIrst line if defense Thymus action. SO destruction of the thymus is also destruc tioj of resistance to MOST chronic diseases - certainly all the Th-2 skewed ones.
It is also possible to damage the antibody system so badly that yhou only have a Th-1 response. THIS leads to chronic diseases of the TH-1 skewed kind, such as Multiple Sclerosis.
SO we need a BALANCED response from THymus as FIRST line of defense and Antibodies as a backup.
Most of the chronic diseases prevalent in modern society are TH-2 skewed, likely due to the widespread occurrence of stress and of vaccines.
In a natural acute disease, unliker after a vaccine, the Thymus eerges stronger than before and better able to defend the body - where vaccines do the opposite, damaging the thymnus and skewin ghte system to Th2 side.
Parasites are less common in modern society but they can tend to skew the immune system to a Th-1 state if mishandled.
THis is from damage to the thymus, causing Th-2 skewed state and no resistance to chronic disease of the H-2 skewed kind - not caused by the virus but by the allopathic treatments, vaccines, etc, over time.
Yes. This is the normal thymus first line of defense response.
EBV is a virus not a parasite.
Parasites in medicine are defined as microbes with a full cellular or multicellupar physiology, unlike viruses. It matters because the immune system handles viruses and parasites differently.
In EBV, a small white cells called a neutrophil is sent to engulf it, and destroy it with internal toxin granules in neutrphils. Next step is for macrophage (lage white cells) to send a message to the neutrophil to die. The macrophages then act much like garbage trucks to collect and toss out the dead neutrophils with their tightly enclosed killed virus and toxins, before the neutrophil can get old (like more than twelve hrs old) and break and release toxins. THis works IF the thymus is intact.
That is not true.
The TH-1 and Th-2 systems can be active together. This happens normally if thymus as first defense is overwhelmed. It continues working, but calls in backup antibodies. In any case the thymus MUST continue while antibodies are made (if it is nottoo damaged to do so).
There is a skewed response (TH-2 skewed in case of EBV) if the thymus is damaged, it is not a case of having to be one or the other.
Only if the thymnus is damaged, not normally.
Hence it is more common in older individuals who have had time to get their thymus messed up.
I do not know where this idea comes from.
Antitbodies (TH-2 components) are transported by the bloodstrem, same as the cells of the Th-1 response.
But they have NO effect on chronic conditions.
This is not how it works.
EBV is one of the viruses well known to cause methylation of epigene components (switch genes that allow or disallow cancer and other illness syndromes in favourable conditios for the illness/syndrome), and THAT predisposes cancer. It is the virus damage to the epigenetic switches by EBV, nothing to do with the immune system.
Where the immune system is relevant is when a cancer is first instituted via a methylated epigene switch. THEN the healthy thymus should step in via TH-1 cytokines abd destroy the cancer anyway, such as with a NKappa-B killer cell. But that will NOT happen if the immune system is TH-2 skewed at the time. The cancer will instead develop.
Other way round.
IF the thymus is damaged adn TH-2 skewed condition exists - THEN such a disease CAN occur.
It is not a matter of what the body responds to.
PLease explain what you mean here?
I am most interested in knowing anything about improving thymus fucntion (TH-1 balanced function, not isolated cytokine forcing). I know of no way to fix that outside of homeopathy. In Hodgkins lymphoma for example they force a poor version of limited Th-1 activity along with Th-2, and only in a specific situaiton (remission of chemotherapy treated Hodgkins plus stem cell therapy first). They use recombinant artificial versions of Interleukin-2 and interferon alpha along with histamine (horrors!) and repeatedly administer them combined to force CD-4 cells to increase production of Interferon-gamma or Interleukin-4 (so both Th1 and Th2 response), and some other effects, with great side effects..
But that is no balanced response nor thymus repair.
Do you know of another process?
This certainly does nothing to push the immune system anywhere, it is a forced chemical response to a forced chemical attack.
That would ojly be true if the thymus were being repaored in a way to enable it to recover its Th-1 functionl That is not what they are doig anywhere I can see.
What I see them doing is more horrifying then exciting.
Please say what you refer to if it is somethig more than I know of.
Well I see no such thing. There is no such thing as a primary EBV state.
What is needed is to restore normal thymus function. That is the case in all Th-2 skewed diseases, whether EBV, Hidgkinsk asthma, cancer, or arthritis.
ALso to undo the miasm (in modern parlance the methylation of an epigene has happened, and needs to be reversed by acetylation back to a healthy strate of the epigene.)
We have others who work on progress.
Hahnemann made amazing progress in his day but we do not lack others to continue it these dyas:-)
Are you saying we have no progress makers since Hahnemann?
I think we have made a lot of progress.
I look forward to your explanation of the points raised.
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
The body's immune system only has one set of "rules" by which the immune system functions.
It is correct that there are Th-1 cytokines and Th-2 cytokines, however either can be dominant in a specific illness, it depends on the illness type. Th-1 cytokines are part of the FIRST line of defence again both acute and chronic conditions or invasions (including allergens, viruses, bacteria, parasites, cancers, dead body cells, whatever is unwanted). THe TH-1 cytokines direct thymus derived cells to destoy and/or remove these unwanted objects using various mechanisms according to what is unwanted. For example Killer cells attack cancer, and neutrophils and then macrophage engulf allergens, viruses, dead cells etc.
This is normal Th-1 activity and will happen as lomg as the Thymus is healthy.
(Unfortunately it is very easilt damaged such as b y chemicals, stress hormone cortisol, vaccines and cortiso-steroids, chemotherapy drugs and magnesium stearate to name just a few)
If the invasion is in very large numbers which overwhelm the thymus response, such as for exampe a measles infection with a poor thymus response, then the cytokines will trigger Th-2 cytokines which are in charge of the antoibody system in the bone marrow.
These are like mass troops who come to the rescue by making antibodies against whatever is invading, which however takes time. A whole antibody manufacturing plant is diurected by Th-2 cytokines.
Vaccines are supposed to make antibodies ahead of need, but they instead add damage to the thymus and skew the immune system so that it is always using TH-2 response as the thymus is too damaged. It even uses Th-2 response when there are hardly any numbers becasu ethe Thymus is so weak it is easily overwhelmed.
THIS predisposes TH-2 skewed diseases.
It is important to know that NO chronic disease can be helped in any way by antibodies. It HAS to use FIrst line if defense Thymus action. SO destruction of the thymus is also destruc tioj of resistance to MOST chronic diseases - certainly all the Th-2 skewed ones.
It is also possible to damage the antibody system so badly that yhou only have a Th-1 response. THIS leads to chronic diseases of the TH-1 skewed kind, such as Multiple Sclerosis.
SO we need a BALANCED response from THymus as FIRST line of defense and Antibodies as a backup.
Most of the chronic diseases prevalent in modern society are TH-2 skewed, likely due to the widespread occurrence of stress and of vaccines.
In a natural acute disease, unliker after a vaccine, the Thymus eerges stronger than before and better able to defend the body - where vaccines do the opposite, damaging the thymnus and skewin ghte system to Th2 side.
Parasites are less common in modern society but they can tend to skew the immune system to a Th-1 state if mishandled.
THis is from damage to the thymus, causing Th-2 skewed state and no resistance to chronic disease of the H-2 skewed kind - not caused by the virus but by the allopathic treatments, vaccines, etc, over time.
Yes. This is the normal thymus first line of defense response.
EBV is a virus not a parasite.
Parasites in medicine are defined as microbes with a full cellular or multicellupar physiology, unlike viruses. It matters because the immune system handles viruses and parasites differently.
In EBV, a small white cells called a neutrophil is sent to engulf it, and destroy it with internal toxin granules in neutrphils. Next step is for macrophage (lage white cells) to send a message to the neutrophil to die. The macrophages then act much like garbage trucks to collect and toss out the dead neutrophils with their tightly enclosed killed virus and toxins, before the neutrophil can get old (like more than twelve hrs old) and break and release toxins. THis works IF the thymus is intact.
That is not true.
The TH-1 and Th-2 systems can be active together. This happens normally if thymus as first defense is overwhelmed. It continues working, but calls in backup antibodies. In any case the thymus MUST continue while antibodies are made (if it is nottoo damaged to do so).
There is a skewed response (TH-2 skewed in case of EBV) if the thymus is damaged, it is not a case of having to be one or the other.
Only if the thymnus is damaged, not normally.
Hence it is more common in older individuals who have had time to get their thymus messed up.
I do not know where this idea comes from.
Antitbodies (TH-2 components) are transported by the bloodstrem, same as the cells of the Th-1 response.
But they have NO effect on chronic conditions.
This is not how it works.
EBV is one of the viruses well known to cause methylation of epigene components (switch genes that allow or disallow cancer and other illness syndromes in favourable conditios for the illness/syndrome), and THAT predisposes cancer. It is the virus damage to the epigenetic switches by EBV, nothing to do with the immune system.
Where the immune system is relevant is when a cancer is first instituted via a methylated epigene switch. THEN the healthy thymus should step in via TH-1 cytokines abd destroy the cancer anyway, such as with a NKappa-B killer cell. But that will NOT happen if the immune system is TH-2 skewed at the time. The cancer will instead develop.
Other way round.
IF the thymus is damaged adn TH-2 skewed condition exists - THEN such a disease CAN occur.
It is not a matter of what the body responds to.
PLease explain what you mean here?
I am most interested in knowing anything about improving thymus fucntion (TH-1 balanced function, not isolated cytokine forcing). I know of no way to fix that outside of homeopathy. In Hodgkins lymphoma for example they force a poor version of limited Th-1 activity along with Th-2, and only in a specific situaiton (remission of chemotherapy treated Hodgkins plus stem cell therapy first). They use recombinant artificial versions of Interleukin-2 and interferon alpha along with histamine (horrors!) and repeatedly administer them combined to force CD-4 cells to increase production of Interferon-gamma or Interleukin-4 (so both Th1 and Th2 response), and some other effects, with great side effects..
But that is no balanced response nor thymus repair.
Do you know of another process?
This certainly does nothing to push the immune system anywhere, it is a forced chemical response to a forced chemical attack.
That would ojly be true if the thymus were being repaored in a way to enable it to recover its Th-1 functionl That is not what they are doig anywhere I can see.
What I see them doing is more horrifying then exciting.
Please say what you refer to if it is somethig more than I know of.
Well I see no such thing. There is no such thing as a primary EBV state.
What is needed is to restore normal thymus function. That is the case in all Th-2 skewed diseases, whether EBV, Hidgkinsk asthma, cancer, or arthritis.
ALso to undo the miasm (in modern parlance the methylation of an epigene has happened, and needs to be reversed by acetylation back to a healthy strate of the epigene.)
We have others who work on progress.
Hahnemann made amazing progress in his day but we do not lack others to continue it these dyas:-)
Are you saying we have no progress makers since Hahnemann?
I think we have made a lot of progress.
I look forward to your explanation of the points raised.
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."