Avogadro's number and homeopathy

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Dear colleagues
If Avogadro's number applies to homeopathic potencies of 12C and above, how is that:
Radium 60 C is said to still be radioactive?

Plut Nit at 30 C and 200 C is supposed to be strong enough to affect other remedies?

(Helios store in their cellar away from any other remedy and will not post it with other remedies!)
Please also note that to produce 30 C potency, a total of only about 105 ml of water is used.
Regards

Soroush

[Irene de Villiers]

It does not apply to homeopathy.
That is relatively unrelated to dilution and is related to radioactivity.
It will be radoactive because it dissolves readily in water and makes the dilution water radioactive.
The radium does not keep itself to itself - it breaks down continuously into other elements (plural) plus radiation particles (multiple) - which goes in all directions. All isotopes of radium are radioactive. As they decay, they emit radiation and split to form new (and unstable) radioactive elements, plus a lot of radiation particles - then split and emit radiation again...and so on until they reach stable lead. (It is a nuclear reaction not a chemical one, and the number of particles increases greatly.)
SO you are not starting with a specific number of elements as in a normal remedy, and the starting numer of elements in the soluton for radium *grows* as the radiation occurs.
SInce radium emits gamma rays (as well as alpha ones) these go through many materials and are not easy to contain.

Plutonium emits mainly alpha radiation which does NOT go through skin unlike beta and gamma rays. I'd be more worried about the radium remedy.
BUT if plutonuim is swallowed and gets INSIDE cells, it does 1000 times the damage to DNA that gamma and beta rays do.
In what way?
Depends how you make it.

If you dilute 1 ml in 99 ml for each dilution you will need (100x30=) 3000 ml = 3 liters of water.
TO make it with only 105 ml, you would have to dilute each C potency using 0.035 ml of starting remedy (wich by the way is only 7/10 of a drop!) plus 3.4 ml water and succuss. I do not know anyione who makes 30C in such small quantities.

Namaste,
Irene

REPLY TO: only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Roger B]

If the evidence is true, then the whole bit about Avogadro's number is greatly in doubt, if not just plain disproven. It is as simple as that. I don't have a problem even doubting the finality of atoms. So, is the evidence true? Is it duplicated by independent investigators.

I don't have any radioactive material sitting around, so I won't be able to test this one. But I will listen to others. Following LENR for almost 2 years, I have become quite practiced at epistemology.

I could even entertain the idea that NEW atoms are being produced in the dilution process, or perhaps sub-atoms, or supra-atoms, or proto-atoms. All kinds of weird stuff might be happening, IF THIS EVIDENCE IS TRUE.

Respectfully submitted,
Roger Bird
Colorado Springs
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: finrod@finrod.co.uk
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 14:25:48 +0100
Subject: [Minutus] Avogadro's number and homeopathy
Dear colleagues
If Avogadro's number applies to homeopathic potencies of 12C and above, how is that:
Radium 60 C is said to still be radioactive?

Plut Nit at 30 C and 200 C is supposed to be strong enough to affect other remedies?

(Helios store in their cellar away from any other remedy and will not post it with other remedies!)
Please also note that to produce 30 C potency, a total of only about 105 ml of water is used.
Regards

Soroush

[Paul Booyse]

At 60C - How does it make it “radioactive?” – What changes to the water are made?
From: Irene de Villiers
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 4:55 PM
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Avogadro's number and homeopathy
It does not apply to homeopathy.
That is relatively unrelated to dilution and is related to radioactivity.
It will be radoactive because it dissolves readily in water and makes the dilution water radioactive.
The radium does not keep itself to itself - it breaks down continuously into other elements (plural) plus radiation particles (multiple) - which goes in all directions. All isotopes of radium are radioactive. As they decay, they emit radiation and split to form new (and unstable) radioactive elements, plus a lot of radiation particles - then split and emit radiation again...and so on until they reach stable lead. (It is a nuclear reaction not a chemical one, and the number of particles increases greatly.)
SO you are not starting with a specific number of elements as in a normal remedy, and the starting numer of elements in the soluton for radium *grows* as the radiation occurs.
SInce radium emits gamma rays (as well as alpha ones) these go through many materials and are not easy to contain.
Plutonium emits mainly alpha radiation which does NOT go through skin unlike beta and gamma rays. I'd be more worried about the radium remedy.
BUT if plutonuim is swallowed and gets INSIDE cells, it does 1000 times the damage to DNA that gamma and beta rays do.
In what way?
Depends how you make it.

If you dilute 1 ml in 99 ml for each dilution you will need (100x30=) 3000 ml = 3 liters of water.

TO make it with only 105 ml, you would have to dilute each C potency using 0.035 ml of starting remedy (wich by the way is only 7/10 of a drop!) plus 3.4 ml water and succuss. I do not know anyione who makes 30C in such small quantities.

Namaste,
Irene

REPLY TO: only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Roger B]

Good points, Irene. But, does the amount of measured radioactivity go up or down. That would be interesting. Does the radioactive signature change with each dilution? If Avogadro's number is absolute, then the radioactive signature should eventually show tritium and nothing else. But if there is a mystery going on (love dem mysteries), then the radioactive signature could go any which way. The testers should just not fret about the usually homeopathic potencies and just keep succussing and diluting and measure each time just to see what happens.

Roger Bird
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: furryboots@icehouse.net
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 07:55:20 -0700
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Avogadro's number and homeopathy
It does not apply to homeopathy.
That is relatively unrelated to dilution and is related to radioactivity.
It will be radoactive because it dissolves readily in water and makes the dilution water radioactive.
The radium does not keep itself to itself - it breaks down continuously into other elements (plural) plus radiation particles (multiple) - which goes in all directions. All isotopes of radium are radioactive. As they decay, they emit radiation and split to form new (and unstable) radioactive elements, plus a lot of radiation particles - then split and emit radiation again...and so on until they reach stable lead. (It is a nuclear reaction not a chemical one, and the number of particles increases greatly.)
SO you are not starting with a specific number of elements as in a normal remedy, and the starting numer of elements in the soluton for radium *grows* as the radiation occurs.
SInce radium emits gamma rays (as well as alpha ones) these go through many materials and are not easy to contain.
Plutonium emits mainly alpha radiation which does NOT go through skin unlike beta and gamma rays. I'd be more worried about the radium remedy.
BUT if plutonuim is swallowed and gets INSIDE cells, it does 1000 times the damage to DNA that gamma and beta rays do.
In what way?
Depends how you make it.

If you dilute 1 ml in 99 ml for each dilution you will need (100x30=) 3000 ml = 3 liters of water.

TO make it with only 105 ml, you would have to dilute each C potency using 0.035 ml of starting remedy (wich by the way is only 7/10 of a drop!) plus 3.4 ml water and succuss. I do not know anyione who makes 30C in such small quantities.

Namaste,
Irene

REPLY TO: only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Roger B]

Yeah, we need details. We need numbers and signatures. And duplications wouldn't hurt any.

Roger
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: pb000014@mweb.co.za
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 17:48:55 +0200
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Avogadro's number and homeopathy
At 60C - How does it make it “radioactive?” – What changes to the water are made?

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Paul - you seem to have missed the point perhaps.

Radium is a radioactive element.

What this means is that at 60C there are still sufficient radium atoms present to present decay and hence a detectable signal.
If Avogadro's number applied, it would mean that after 12C, there would NOT be sufficient atoms of radium to demonstrate radio active decay.
Rgds

Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Booyse
Sent: 10 September 2013 16:49
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Avogadro's number and homeopathy
At 60C - How does it make it “radioactive?” – What changes to the water are made?
From: Irene de Villiers

Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 4:55 PM

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Minutus] Avogadro's number and homeopathy
It does not apply to homeopathy.
That is relatively unrelated to dilution and is related to radioactivity.
It will be radoactive because it dissolves readily in water and makes the dilution water radioactive.
The radium does not keep itself to itself - it breaks down continuously into other elements (plural) plus radiation particles (multiple) - which goes in all directions. All isotopes of radium are radioactive. As they decay, they emit radiation and split to form new (and unstable) radioactive elements, plus a lot of radiation particles - then split and emit radiation again...and so on until they reach stable lead. (It is a nuclear reaction not a chemical one, and the number of particles increases greatly.)
SO you are not starting with a specific number of elements as in a normal remedy, and the starting numer of elements in the soluton for radium *grows* as the radiation occurs.
SInce radium emits gamma rays (as well as alpha ones) these go through many materials and are not easy to contain.
Plutonium emits mainly alpha radiation which does NOT go through skin unlike beta and gamma rays. I'd be more worried about the radium remedy.
BUT if plutonuim is swallowed and gets INSIDE cells, it does 1000 times the damage to DNA that gamma and beta rays do.
In what way?
Depends how you make it.

If you dilute 1 ml in 99 ml for each dilution you will need (100x30=) 3000 ml = 3 liters of water.

TO make it with only 105 ml, you would have to dilute each C potency using 0.035 ml of starting remedy (wich by the way is only 7/10 of a drop!) plus 3.4 ml water and succuss. I do not know anyione who makes 30C in such small quantities.

Namaste,
Irene

REPLY TO: > only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Irene
I would have thought that you would have known that only one drop of say mother tincture is added to 99 drops of water to make 1C. Each 100 drops = approximately 3.5 ml

30 x 3.5 = 105
Rgds

Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger B
Sent: 10 September 2013 16:39
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Minutus] Avogadro's number and homeopathy
Good points, Irene. But, does the amount of measured radioactivity go up or down. That would be interesting. Does the radioactive signature change with each dilution? If Avogadro's number is absolute, then the radioactive signature should eventually show tritium and nothing else. But if there is a mystery going on (love dem mysteries), then the radioactive signature could go any which way. The testers should just not fret about the usually homeopathic potencies and just keep succussing and diluting and measure each time just to see what happens.

Roger Bird
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: furryboots@icehouse.net
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 07:55:20 -0700
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Avogadro's number and homeopathy
It does not apply to homeopathy.
That is relatively unrelated to dilution and is related to radioactivity.
It will be radoactive because it dissolves readily in water and makes the dilution water radioactive.
The radium does not keep itself to itself - it breaks down continuously into other elements (plural) plus radiation particles (multiple) - which goes in all directions. All isotopes of radium are radioactive. As they decay, they emit radiation and split to form new (and unstable) radioactive elements, plus a lot of radiation particles - then split and emit radiation again...and so on until they reach stable lead. (It is a nuclear reaction not a chemical one, and the number of particles increases greatly.)
SO you are not starting with a specific number of elements as in a normal remedy, and the starting numer of elements in the soluton for radium *grows* as the radiation occurs.
SInce radium emits gamma rays (as well as alpha ones) these go through many materials and are not easy to contain.
Plutonium emits mainly alpha radiation which does NOT go through skin unlike beta and gamma rays. I'd be more worried about the radium remedy.
BUT if plutonuim is swallowed and gets INSIDE cells, it does 1000 times the damage to DNA that gamma and beta rays do.
In what way?
Depends how you make it.

If you dilute 1 ml in 99 ml for each dilution you will need (100x30=) 3000 ml = 3 liters of water.

TO make it with only 105 ml, you would have to dilute each C potency using 0.035 ml of starting remedy (wich by the way is only 7/10 of a drop!) plus 3.4 ml water and succuss. I do not know anyione who makes 30C in such small quantities.

Namaste,
Irene

REPLY TO: > only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Bob Needham]

Now that is interesting. Given what you have said, should one be using these remedies. My understanding is that radiation is classified as non ionizing or ionizing, based on it's ability to or not to ionize matter. Then, if a remedy was to be prepared from a dilution of a radioactive Plutonium isotope it begs the question, would not the ionization still be within the remedy in a potentized form, which to me the end product is a lot different than the dilution of physical matter in something like Lach 200C.

As you have mentioned Helios, what I have seen is that their radiation remedies are for most in the chemical composition of a nitrate or chloride. I read that Plutonium Nitrates are a product of reprocessing (extraction of plutonium from nuclear fuel) and still radio active. So is Helios's Plutonium (239) Nitricum 200C then derived from an non ionizing Plutonium ????
bob

[Irene de Villiers]

I have not studied the radioative intermediates produced wen radium decays into other atoms and emits a new lot of radiation. But it does happen multpe times for radium, and keeps happening- multiplying the number of partiicles so that here are MANY particles from ONE origial radium.
That continues till radium decays to lead.
Since radium has atomic weight of 226 and lead has atomic weight 207, there is a lot of decay and multiplic atio of particle numbners to be done to go from 226 down to 207, one at a time.

Radium isotopes are all radioactive, though some decay faster than others. SO there is no easy way to calculate it withoutknowing how much of which isotope were in the remedy. Knowig homeoapths are sloppy about that, and never go by weight, makes any actual calculation for a specific remedy - also repeatability - impossible.
I do not know if Helios measured radiation or is "playing safe", but I would not be surprised at a measured radiation occurring, bearing in mind the fast potential increase in radioactivity and particle numbers during remedy making and the lack of alpha particle escape route in glass.
The literature says that Radium breaks down with alpha rays at each stage, it does not vary like say uranium.
Avogadro's number is irrelevant to this.
Try to understand - Avogadro worked with gas laws - laws about how oxygem hydrogen, etc gases worked and how yo coudl compress them or chahge how much was in a container at different temperatures and pressures, and how high pressure woudl make the gas into lquid, like liquid ntrogen etc.
His avogadro number is the number of GAS molecules in a molecular weight of the substance.
It happens to work for other sustances besides gases as well, but it has to do with numver of molecules PER MOLE.

You can not apply it to radioactivity. That woul be like trying to measure water with a ruler. Radioactivity involves breakdown of atoms, into different atoms and some "spare" particles that are the "radioactive" aspect.
No. Radioactive substances each have a typical breakdown for that substance, Radium breaks down (via MANY initermediate also radioactive atoms) to lead, becasue lead is the first stable substance on its radioactivity breakdown path.
I see no mystery.
Radoactivity works a known way.
Unfortuunately homepaths do not work a known way, and they ignore weights, isotopes, etc and just forge ahead, and then wonder why they cannot answer their own questions
Lack of chemistry basics leads to their tossing Avogadro's name all over the place where it does nto fit for example. And look how many homeopaths keep doing that.

You can explain the Avogadro chemistry till you are blue in the face and homeopaths prefer to not have their ears on They are worse than skeptics at sticking to a wrong idea:-) I wrote the details of Avogadro's misfitting idea (referenced) to Trevor Cook (founder of BIH) back in last century - and he agreed to update the BIH courses, but never did. Nor did the current head of BIH.
I find that sad. Homeopaths need to get updated when truths are known. No need to use me as the source of truth, any chemist will laugh at the idea of associating Avogadro's number with a remedy where no specific molecule is involved as in most remedies, and no known molecular weight, and make homeopaths look stupid. Do we really need that? They will assume we are equally ignorant in other homeopathy claims as we are with that one. Do we also want that?
I'd like to think it is time we give up tghe old wives tales and get more scientific where we can.
It will go a specific way at a rate determined by the starting isotopes and amount of each of them used.
Were those facts recorded - or even measured?
Measuring radiation is an art, but with the right expensive equipment it can be done at each dilution with confidence and repeatability. (The "OTC" type radiation counters are a joke, not accurate enough, it would need proper equipment.) but there would be no point doing it without ALSO knowing how much of which isotope was used in the starting amount, and how long over time, each dilution took to make. The radioactivity does not stop while one gets coffee between 25C, and 26C for example, making repeatability impossible wthout the time factor also being measured and documented.

The radium isotopes and their ratio and amount, really matter if you want to make calculations on numbers of particles as some have a half-life of 3 minutes and others have a half life of over a thousand years, and others are in-between.

And my computer would likely overheat into a radioactive meltdown in the computational attempt:-)

Namaste,
Irene
REPLY TO: only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."