Response to Elham regarding the physics of homeopathy

[Fran Sheffield]

Yes, very true.

And being a quantum physicist who has delved into the area of dilutions, he is a wonderful asset for the community.

He is also one of the peer reviewers for the Homeopathy journal.
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Fran Sheffield
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[John Harvey]

If I could offer a couple of minor thoughts that may have a bearing on this:
Whoa! Two things: (1) If a tritium atom emits a beta particle, surely the result is an isotope of helium, is it not? To that extent, that atom no longer participates in a water molecule, but in a (probably very transient!) joining of helium, hydrogen, and oxygen. If this is a mechanism of potentisation, it raises more questions than it answers. (2) If memory serves -- I'm happy to be corrected -- tritium would have been rare to nonexistent in Hahnemann's time. Isn't it a product of nuclear fission? Heavy water was, I thought, not something that existed at all prior to our silly dabbling in the nuclear-fuel cycle, and I recall reading that the last pure water unadulterated by heavy water has lain buried in drums in a desert somewhere since before the first H-bomb exploded.
Your own example, of beta decay, clearly contradicts that.

And surely you're not saying that a 60 Hz EM field is known to break open atomic nuclei?
But Irene's right, isn't she: all these are essentially electrical?
Cheers --

John

[Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD]

As far as I remember my basic physics, deuterium and tritium are natural isotopes.

Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD. "The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind". www.naturamedica.webs.com

[Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD]

Just had a quick check, they both are natural rare isotopes, used in nuclear warheads and nuclear reactors, where they can also be produced. Tritium is unstable whereas deuterium is stable, base of "heavy water".

Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD. "The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind". www.naturamedica.webs.com

[John Harvey]

Thanks, Joe; I stand corrected. How the water was supposedly free of heavy water, then, I don't know.

In that case, the problem I was envisaging there -- that liquid potentisation's reliance upon tritium would forbid its existence in Hahnemann's time -- apparently is no problem after all.

Cheers --

John

[Roger B]

Tritium has a half life of 12 years I believe, or is it 9 years, and it is the result of the breakdown of several heavy radioactive elements. So it is natural in a strange sense. You are not likely to meet up with it unless you go hiking in rocky (not necessarily the Rocky) mountains, and even then it would be very difficult to detect since it is so rare.

Roger
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To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: jroz@ihug.co.nz
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 14:36:02 +1200
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Response to Elham regarding the physics of homeopathy
As far as I remember my basic physics, deuterium and tritium are natural isotopes.

Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD. "The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind". www.naturamedica.webs.com

[Irene de Villiers]

Clathrate needs to become a household word, so the more it is mentioned the better:-)
Non, C'est incorrect.
Take the H2O molecule. It has a concentrated dot which has the main weight, for Oxygen, with a large area of electrons around it, interacting with the large electron clouds around the two concentrated dots of hydrogen.
SO it is more like the electrons are cars in the parking lots of a large apartment near two houses each with a driveway.
The three buildings are separate - cannot make one nucleus.
Three atoms, not three nuclei. The atoms each have a nucleus AND electron clouds and the nuclei are kept far apart by the electron clouds.

No.
Hydrogen cannot just become radioactive if it feels like it:-)
Tritium is totally separate from water.
Most atomic elements do exist in more than one form, and tritium is one form of hydrogen, with a heavier nucleus than regular hydrogen. But you will not find that form of hydrogen in water.
Only trace amounts exist on the planet, from interactions with cosmic rays. Any presence of it in anything would be accidental and unlikely, and is not relevant to homeopathy.
No. That's like saying that because an apple falls off a tree in WA state, that means the grapes ini Fraance turned from red to white.
There is no connection! And Zero radioactive component.
But you are confusing a second item - radioactive and electromagnetic are separate concepts.

Electromagnetiic "radiation" is nothing more than a wave - like a light wave or sound wave or heat wave or microwave wave.
The fact that it travels in all directions means it "radiates" the way your heater radiates heat or a lightbulb radiates light - but NOT that it is radiOACTIVE.
Radioactvity only applies if you knock particles out of the actual nucleus, as in fission or fusion atomic reactions - whereas radiating waves, as in electromagnetic radiation, is just a frequency of wiggling to generate waves.
It's a wiggle factor thing:-) Not a nuclear reaction.
......This is a WAVE signal, (not a radioactive one)

No that's like swaying the atomic bomb is synonymous with the light bulb above your bed.
You'd know if you slept under an atomic bomb:-)
Question all you like - but that's how a clathrate forms.
Those are not relevant to homeopathy.
What is the Cavendish?
there is none
yes, a specific frequency per clathrate
the clathrate in contact with the body's connective tissue - has the piezo-electric effect to transmit the frequency - as the connective tissue acts as a liquid crystal.
Nothing at all to do with anything nuclear.
You'll likely enjoy the book's explanation.
Just be sure to understand EM as opposed to anything nuclear!
Namaste,
Irene

REPLY TO: only
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Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Paul Booyse]

Hi Irene,
The nuclei are kept apart by the nuclei. they are positively charged and repel each other. They are kept in a structure by the electron structure.
Regards,
Paul

[John R. Benneth]

Well, what has quantum physics explained? Not anything that I can think of at the moment. It's raised some very interesting anomalies, like entanglement, but isn't Scholten is known for his periodic table of supramoleculars? They really can't be considered as legitimate homeopathics until they're properly proven, can they? Sort of like Griffith and his dream provers, taking a detour around the hard work of proving. He's a windbag. Where were Scholten's "experiments" published? What were they? What was he testing and why, for what purpose?
You say he's a physicist AND a "quantum" physicist. Why should there be any difference between the two? Does a physicist stop reading when he runs into the word quantum?
So really, what does it mean when he says he doesn't know? Why should that come as a surprise?
So far, I'm not too impressed with physicists. They seem to be very good at creating messes and entirely incompetent at cleaning them up. Hanford is a prime example, so is Cherynoble, so is Fukishima, and hundreds of other disasters around the planet that will eventually happen unless somebody figures outhow to undo what they did, and homeopathy offers the only solution.
From what I've seen, physics is an unmitigated disaster, like little children lighting matches and playing with fire, indoors, under the drapes. If the human race disappears from the face of the planet, it will be because of physicists who made it and homeopaths who failed to clean it up. Physicists do the crime, homeopaths do the time.
What surprises me is how little they seem to know about classical science and reality in general, and nuclear physics in particular. From what I've seen they can't ask questions and can't even say how they got home last night.
Homeopathy doesn't need quantum physics to explain it. Homeopathy can be explaijned by piecing togther the phsyical experiments that have been done with the known classical science regarding water. As Professor Rustum Roy, head of Penn State's mateiral sciences said, its up to the skeptics to disporve homeopathy:
"This paper does not deal in any way with, and has no bearing whatsoever on, the clinical efficacy of any homeopathic remedy. However, it does definitively demolish the objection against homeopathy, when such is based on the wholly incorrect claim that since there is no difference in composition between a remedy and the pure water used, there can be no differences at all between them. We show the untenability of this claim against the central paradigm of materials science that it is structure (not composition) that (largely) controls properties, and structures can easily be changed in inorganic phases without any change of composition. The burden of proof on critics of homeopathy is to establish that the structure of the processed remedy is not different from the original solvent.
"The principal conclusions of this paper concern only the plausibility of the biological action of ultradiluted water remedies, they are based on some very old (e.g. homeopathy) and some very new (e.g. metallic and nanobubble colloids) observations which have been rejected on invalid grounds or due to ignorance of the materials research literature and its theoretical basis. This constitutes an excellent example of the common error in rejecting new scientific discoveries by using the absence of evidence as evidence for absence."
The Structure Of Liquid Water; Novel Insights From Materials Research; Potential Relevance To Homeopathy Materials Research Innovations Online 5 77
John Benneth
In a message dated 8/29/2013 2:34:27 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jroz@ihug.co.nz writes:
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[John R. Benneth]

In a message dated 8/30/2013 3:50:12 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, furryboots@icehouse.net writes:
That's right, that's what I just wrote, a molecule has nuclei, not just one nucleus. Nuclei is the plural of nucleus . .
Nuclei is the plural of nucleus. Each atom has a nucleus, so three atoms add up to three nuclei. We're both saying the same damn thing, but you're telling me I'm wrong.
Irene, hydrogen in water becomes radioactive by cosmic bombardment in the upper atmosphere. Look it up.
No, it's not separate from water. Look up tritiated water. Tritiated water is super heavy water, where protium (simple hydrgen) in water becomes tritium, T, or 3H. Please check your "facts" before you start contradicting people with them.
Well tell that to any number of people who are usinjg tritiated water as a medical isotope. Tell it to Rolland Conte who detected it in a homeopathic remedy. Tell it to the people who make nuclear weapons. Why do you think they called it the Hydrogen bomb? It's because they used tritium, tritiated water,i.e. super heavy water, as a detonator.
Tritium is in tritiated water. "Tritiated water is a form of water where the usual hydrogen atoms are replaced with tritium. In its pure form it may be called tritium oxide (T2O or 3H2O) or super-heavy water. Pure T2O is corrosive due to self-radiolysis. Diluted, tritiated water is mainly H2O plus some HTO (3HOH). ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritiated_water
Well, after reading you confuse "nuclei" with "nucleus" and deny the existence of tritiated water, I'm beginning to think you're just taking exception with conventional terminology to drive everyone nuts. What do you have, a dictionary where you just write in your own definitions for the words? Is this how you're handling your court case?
Radioactive means it emits or relates to the emission of ionizing radiation or particles. It's a form of electromagnetism (EM). It is evident that the homeopathic remedy is resonating throughout the spectrum in that indices have been discovered for both radioactivity and EM.
So is radioactivity . . some call it a wave, some call it a particle, but both radioactivity and electromagnetism are on the same spectrum.
Don't you listen to your radio because it's a radioactive receiver? You're fighting over semantics while you're making up on your own. Show me something other than your own fiction, quote somebody other than Ron Paul.
You're talking about two different spots on the EM spectrum. But where do you think all this radiation is coming from? You seem to think that you can knock it out of the nucleus like a golf ball with a nine iron. But after a million years, what is it you think is knocking "particles" out of the nucleus of all that radioactive material stored in tanks at Hanford up wind from you in Spokane? Arnold Palmer? You seem to think radioactivity comes out of plutonium like music from the energizer bunny. All we have to do is wait for it to run down?
That explains everything . . I mean nothing. Can you point to a spot on the electromagnetic spectrum where you think plain old electromagnetic radiation ends and "radioactive" radiation begins? Just at what frequnecy does radiation become radioactivity.
The point I'm trying to make here, Irene, is that we're awash in indistinct terminolgy. "Radio active" radiation appears to be synonymous in your mind with what you conslder to be solely nuclear radiation, distinct from more common electromagnetic radiation.
But what makes you so sure of the source?
I'm suggesting that the differences are not so distinct between EM and nuclear, and that "radio active".applies to the imagined source, whereas logic suspects it's idiopathic. Other than spectral wavelength, what are the differences between an AM signal and beta waves? Are you going to say that at some point along the spectrum the wave changes into a particle?
We have the same problem with the word "homeopathy." It describes an application of a material, not what the material is, yet it is taken to mean a highly diluted substances. This is why I refer to homeopathic remedies above or approaching Avogadro as supramolecular.
So you think that once you get to ionizing radiation on the spectrum, up there around xray, beta and gamma it becomes a particle?
Please stop playing games, Irene.
Tell that to material scientists at Penn State and Stanford, such as Prof Iris Bell, Prof Rick Hoover and Prof William Tiller, who wrote: 'The most distinctive feature of bonding in liquid water is not only the "well-known hydrogen bonds, but the necessary presence of a wide range” of van der Waals bonds between and among the various oligomeric (cluster) structural units. It is this range of very weak bonds that could account for the remarkable ease of changing the structure of water, which in turn could help explain the half-dozen well-known anomalies in its properties. In its subtler form, such weak bonds would also allow for the changes of structure caused by electric and magnetic fields and by radiation of all kinds, including possibly so-called “subtle energies”, which are the basis of an enormous range of claims about specially “structured” water.'
...
'Water is therefore probably the most easily changed phase of condensed matter known.'
The Structure Of Liquid Water; Novel Insights From Materials Research; Potential Relevance To Homeopathy Materials Research Innovations Online 5 77 Roy R, Tiller W, Hoover R, Bell I
The Cavendish Laboratory is the Department of Physics at the University of Cambridge, part of the University's School of Physical Sciences. It was opened in 1874 as a teaching laboratory. James Maxwell, the developer of electromagnetic theory, is the founder of the lab and was its first professor of physics.
How do you know there isn't? Have you read Conte's account of detecting tritium in a homeopathic remedy in his book "Theory of High Dilutions?"
Where is it that you think this EM from the clathrate is coming from?
I agree, although I don't think contact is needed.
Tell that whopper to researchers who have confirmed Linus Pauling's ionfluence of the co valentsigma bond.on hydrogen bonding.
(Sigh) Radioactivitry is electromagnetism, Irene. Know it. Read up on the Nuclear Electromagnetic pulse. Set off a nuclear weapon and it will generate a huge amount of electromagnetism, enough to fry your hair dryer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_el ... etic_pulse
It could be that succussion is creating a nanoscale nuclear reaction.
Read Structure of Liquid Water. 'A considerable body of work now demonstrates the effects of magnetic fields on aqueous solutions.'
The possibilities of such a thing are founded on Conte's experiments and the fact that tritium occurs naturally in water.
Please don't be so contradicting without giving me some reference, as I have done for you, or it just gets down to no it isn't vs. yes it is arguing. It's annoying. Its the same as I get from skeptic know it alls who know nothing at all, trolls who insist there's nothing but "plain water" in the H remedy. I'm making a real effor to drawn upon the literature as I hope you will too..