Do you have a personal grudge, something to settle??
She clearly wrote that what she uses in multiple remedies are the BFRs, which are NOT homeopathic remedies as we all agree, and that she does not uses polypharmacy for real homeopathic remedies.
I don't get your reaction...............
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD. "The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind". www.naturamedica.webs.com
BFR
Re: BFR
Ditto to that. Getting tired of the grade school style nasty retorts. Not real dignified, or adult, or kind. Got a beef? Please spare the rest of us and settle it in private. Or, just marry her already! 
Agi
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD." wrote:
Agi
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD." wrote:
-
John Harvey
- Posts: 1331
- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:00 pm
Re: BFR
Hi, Joe --
Have you paid any attention at all to this discussion and what Irene has been promoting in it?
Here is a quote from each of her last five messages on this topic.
(1) "The documented things each flower essence helps, are very similar to a proving, and make the bach remedies *predictable* as to what they each will help. It includes mind, general and specific symptoms, much as with homeopathy… individualized so that the synergistic choice acts as one individually matched, balancing remedy".
(2) "The knowledge of pathogenesis of the BFRs is both essential and available, and as with homeopathy, is a growing body of knowledge. Without it you can toss your BFR remedies down the sink".
(3) "The law of Similars is very likely invoked as in homeopathy. The SET of symptoms associated with the remedy ("the remedy" being the synergistic "set" or mix needed to make a whole remedy) is matched (similar) to those of the individual needing the remedy… A single BFR has not got the depth of action of a potentized remedy and can not be a totality remedy. It takes a few of them to do that".
(4) "> It is quite possible that individual Bach flowers are homeopathic in effect purely on the basis of how their use was determined.
…
Yes, all true".
(5) "I advocate only remedies that ARE predictable in advance as to what they can accomplish, for a SPECIFIC individual, whatever system they belong to. "
Collectively, then, this is Irene's justification for continuing to prescribe multiple remedies on the basis that she is treating different kinds of states in the one patient. If that wasn't obvious to you, then perhaps you could revisit some of the earlier discussions on that topic.
Irene slides very readily from prescribing Bach flower remedies not-exactly-homoeopathically (but simultaneously claiming that they're homoeopathic) to treating all medicines as potentially prescribable together on the basis of whatever wonderful rationale is available for the taking. I find it completely unacceptable that anybody continue to mislead people who know no better than to accept such drivel uncritically, whether that person be Irene or anybody else misusing this list to insinuate polypharmacy into homoeopathy.
Kind regards,
John
Have you paid any attention at all to this discussion and what Irene has been promoting in it?
Here is a quote from each of her last five messages on this topic.
(1) "The documented things each flower essence helps, are very similar to a proving, and make the bach remedies *predictable* as to what they each will help. It includes mind, general and specific symptoms, much as with homeopathy… individualized so that the synergistic choice acts as one individually matched, balancing remedy".
(2) "The knowledge of pathogenesis of the BFRs is both essential and available, and as with homeopathy, is a growing body of knowledge. Without it you can toss your BFR remedies down the sink".
(3) "The law of Similars is very likely invoked as in homeopathy. The SET of symptoms associated with the remedy ("the remedy" being the synergistic "set" or mix needed to make a whole remedy) is matched (similar) to those of the individual needing the remedy… A single BFR has not got the depth of action of a potentized remedy and can not be a totality remedy. It takes a few of them to do that".
(4) "> It is quite possible that individual Bach flowers are homeopathic in effect purely on the basis of how their use was determined.
…
Yes, all true".
(5) "I advocate only remedies that ARE predictable in advance as to what they can accomplish, for a SPECIFIC individual, whatever system they belong to. "
Collectively, then, this is Irene's justification for continuing to prescribe multiple remedies on the basis that she is treating different kinds of states in the one patient. If that wasn't obvious to you, then perhaps you could revisit some of the earlier discussions on that topic.
Irene slides very readily from prescribing Bach flower remedies not-exactly-homoeopathically (but simultaneously claiming that they're homoeopathic) to treating all medicines as potentially prescribable together on the basis of whatever wonderful rationale is available for the taking. I find it completely unacceptable that anybody continue to mislead people who know no better than to accept such drivel uncritically, whether that person be Irene or anybody else misusing this list to insinuate polypharmacy into homoeopathy.
Kind regards,
John
-
Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: BFR
Hi John,
In what way does anything you've quoted below address Irene's use of homeopathic remedies?
In what way does anything you've quoted below address Irene's use of homeopathic remedies?
-
John Harvey
- Posts: 1331
- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:00 pm
Re: BFR
Sorry, Shannon; I thought I'd spelt it out, but it's probably a bit obscure if you don't recall Irene's rationalisation, in similar terms, of polypharmacy as belonging in homoeopathic practice.
But quote (5) recalls that stance: Irene is not confining herself to the single medicine homoeopathically prescribed; her practice includes (as of her last unambiguous declaration of it) prescribing multiple remedies, potentised, for the same individual -- on the basis that these different remedies have different purposes.
The Bach discussion merely the next opportunity to suggest that when homoeopathy per se "fails", polypharmacy is appropriate -- and may be regarded as homoeopathy.
As you yourself -- and even Irene herself, on occasion -- have acknowledged, the basis of homoeopathy requires a predictable pathogenetic effect; and such predictability is not available using multiple medicines. Irene's genius is to suggest that her insight is such that she can predict the synergies etc. that result from polypharmacy and therefore overcome that basic obstacle; but there's no suggestion of method in her madness, only a suggestion of incurable audacity.
Cheers --
John
But quote (5) recalls that stance: Irene is not confining herself to the single medicine homoeopathically prescribed; her practice includes (as of her last unambiguous declaration of it) prescribing multiple remedies, potentised, for the same individual -- on the basis that these different remedies have different purposes.
The Bach discussion merely the next opportunity to suggest that when homoeopathy per se "fails", polypharmacy is appropriate -- and may be regarded as homoeopathy.
As you yourself -- and even Irene herself, on occasion -- have acknowledged, the basis of homoeopathy requires a predictable pathogenetic effect; and such predictability is not available using multiple medicines. Irene's genius is to suggest that her insight is such that she can predict the synergies etc. that result from polypharmacy and therefore overcome that basic obstacle; but there's no suggestion of method in her madness, only a suggestion of incurable audacity.
Cheers --
John
-
Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
- Posts: 2279
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: BFR
Yes, I read carefully all the posts.
In THIS thread, titled BFR, there is not a trace of using multiple HOMEOPATHIC remedies together in one bottle.
Whatever else has been written at other times about that is another subject of discussion.
Your passion for purity is respectable, but please do not modify the letter and the spirit of what others write. If you want again to stoke the fires of single versus complex remedies, fine, but start a different thread.
Simple, plain, common courtesy that is due to everyone, even if you dislike him/her/it.
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD. "The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind". www.naturamedica.webs.com
In THIS thread, titled BFR, there is not a trace of using multiple HOMEOPATHIC remedies together in one bottle.
Whatever else has been written at other times about that is another subject of discussion.
Your passion for purity is respectable, but please do not modify the letter and the spirit of what others write. If you want again to stoke the fires of single versus complex remedies, fine, but start a different thread.
Simple, plain, common courtesy that is due to everyone, even if you dislike him/her/it.
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD. "The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind". www.naturamedica.webs.com
-
Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: BFR
You are mixing together the topics of BFR and homeopathy -- despite your insistence, and our general agreement, that they are "not homeopathy." Please choose omen topic or the other, and stop this polypharmaceutical mixing of topics.
Shannon
Shannon
Re: BFR
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, John Harvey wrote:
-----------------------
John,
What Irene is saying sounds very much like the process of selecting BFR's. To be sure, I checked the Bach Center web site :
http://www.bachcentre.com/centre/select.htm
Looks like her "ducks are in a row".
Atb,
Leilanae
----------------------------------
-----------------------
John,
What Irene is saying sounds very much like the process of selecting BFR's. To be sure, I checked the Bach Center web site :
http://www.bachcentre.com/centre/select.htm
Looks like her "ducks are in a row".
Atb,
Leilanae
----------------------------------
-
John Harvey
- Posts: 1331
- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:00 pm
Re: BFR
Thanks, Leilanae and Shannon, and I do appreciate that Irene has been careful not to explicitly and absolutely unambiguously restate her position that multiple medicines may be prescribed for the one patient for simultaneous use in homoeopathy. Nevertheless, that is the clear implication of the series of posts.
Joe, you're making a distinction here, between multiple remedies and remedies in one bottle, that is of no consequence to the question of polypharmacy. This is Irene's claim too: that as long as they're not mixed together, and as long as she has different reasons for prescribing each, it's not polypharmacy. But of course it is. And the fact that she claims that use of Bach flower remedies in this manner is indeed homoeopathic does, I'm sorry to say, rather undermine the idea that the Bach discussion is distinct from Irene's attempt to shoehorn polypharmacy -- specifically Irenopathy -- into homoeopathy.
Let Irene state that the Bach flower remedies have no pathogenesis to speak of, or that there is no attempt after all to "match" a mixture of pathogeneses to the patient's symptoms on a basis of similarity, and the discussion then becomes entirely irrelevant to homoeopathy. Until then, Irene's claims to the contrary constitute claims that polypharmacy can be -- at least in her case -- part of homoeopathy.
Cheers --
John
Joe, you're making a distinction here, between multiple remedies and remedies in one bottle, that is of no consequence to the question of polypharmacy. This is Irene's claim too: that as long as they're not mixed together, and as long as she has different reasons for prescribing each, it's not polypharmacy. But of course it is. And the fact that she claims that use of Bach flower remedies in this manner is indeed homoeopathic does, I'm sorry to say, rather undermine the idea that the Bach discussion is distinct from Irene's attempt to shoehorn polypharmacy -- specifically Irenopathy -- into homoeopathy.
Let Irene state that the Bach flower remedies have no pathogenesis to speak of, or that there is no attempt after all to "match" a mixture of pathogeneses to the patient's symptoms on a basis of similarity, and the discussion then becomes entirely irrelevant to homoeopathy. Until then, Irene's claims to the contrary constitute claims that polypharmacy can be -- at least in her case -- part of homoeopathy.
Cheers --
John
Re: BFR
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, John Harvey wrote:
--------------------------
John,
pathogenesis /patho·gen·e·sis/ (path″ah-jen´ĕ-sis) the development of morbid conditions or of disease; more specifically the cellular events and reactions and other pathologic mechanisms occurring in the development of disease.pathogenet´ic
--------
http://www.bachcentre.com/centre/select.htm
"Physical problems
Suppose you are suffering from asthma. There is no Bach remedy for asthma, since this is a physical complaint. So the first step is to forget about the physical problem. Instead of concentrating on the asthma, think about how you feel emotionally, and about the sort of person you are.
Similarly, when it comes to selecting Bach remedies you should ignore any physical symptoms. They are not relevant to which Bach remedies you need.
The remedies work on a emotional level. If you need help with a physical problem you should consult a qualified medical advisor in addition to taking Bach remedies."
Leilanae
------------------------------------------
or that there is no attempt after all to "match" a mixture of
--------------------------
John,
pathogenesis /patho·gen·e·sis/ (path″ah-jen´ĕ-sis) the development of morbid conditions or of disease; more specifically the cellular events and reactions and other pathologic mechanisms occurring in the development of disease.pathogenet´ic
--------
http://www.bachcentre.com/centre/select.htm
"Physical problems
Suppose you are suffering from asthma. There is no Bach remedy for asthma, since this is a physical complaint. So the first step is to forget about the physical problem. Instead of concentrating on the asthma, think about how you feel emotionally, and about the sort of person you are.
Similarly, when it comes to selecting Bach remedies you should ignore any physical symptoms. They are not relevant to which Bach remedies you need.
The remedies work on a emotional level. If you need help with a physical problem you should consult a qualified medical advisor in addition to taking Bach remedies."
Leilanae
------------------------------------------
or that there is no attempt after all to "match" a mixture of