Can you explain the standardisation of making a 1M?
I have no access to HPUS, so anyone who knows the answer please chime in, let's get over that issue once and for all, please.
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
Concerns about potency
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Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
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- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm
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Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Concerns about potency
I don't know what HPUS says about that part, but I do know that individual pharmacies spell out their procedures--at least some do, so I would assume that all would/should be able to say just what they do. I've checked into those details in the past, but wouldn't trust my memory for specifics at the moment (and I suppose things can change), but as I remember:
- Hahnemann Pharmacy uses 100 succussions per potency, performed by their potentizer, which is basically a mechanical arm which does just what, say, *your* arm would be doing, if it didn't have that little drawback of becoming exhausted along the way.
I *think* this is how all of their potencies are made--and if one wants to double-check, they have always been very prompt and forthcoming with information, in my experience.
- I *think* I remember that Helios uses 10 succussions per potency? But I don't know whether this is all potencies, by something like a mechanical arm, or hand-succussed up to what potency, and then what...
- I no longer remember which I have been told use fluxion method--
So my point at the moment is not to say "here's what so-and-so does", but rather to say that (a) not every pharmacy does it the same (so there's not inter-pharmacy standardization) and (b) presumably each individual pharmacy does have standardized method for the remedies / potencies they prepare, and I have not heard of variations other than * mechanical, either hand- or machine (with usually either 10 or 20 or 100 succussions); or . * fluxion or * Korsakov. That is not exactly the boundless swamp that you seemed to be suggesting!
Oh, there was also Celletech whose remedies turned out to be radionically prepared, which is okay *so long as they make customers aware of the fact*, which they had not been.
Am I missing something else?
Shannon
Can you explain the standardisation of making a 1M?
I have no access to HPUS, so anyone who knows the answer please chime in, let's get over that issue once and for all, please.
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
- Hahnemann Pharmacy uses 100 succussions per potency, performed by their potentizer, which is basically a mechanical arm which does just what, say, *your* arm would be doing, if it didn't have that little drawback of becoming exhausted along the way.
I *think* this is how all of their potencies are made--and if one wants to double-check, they have always been very prompt and forthcoming with information, in my experience.- I *think* I remember that Helios uses 10 succussions per potency? But I don't know whether this is all potencies, by something like a mechanical arm, or hand-succussed up to what potency, and then what...
- I no longer remember which I have been told use fluxion method--
So my point at the moment is not to say "here's what so-and-so does", but rather to say that (a) not every pharmacy does it the same (so there's not inter-pharmacy standardization) and (b) presumably each individual pharmacy does have standardized method for the remedies / potencies they prepare, and I have not heard of variations other than * mechanical, either hand- or machine (with usually either 10 or 20 or 100 succussions); or . * fluxion or * Korsakov. That is not exactly the boundless swamp that you seemed to be suggesting!
Oh, there was also Celletech whose remedies turned out to be radionically prepared, which is okay *so long as they make customers aware of the fact*, which they had not been.
Am I missing something else?
Shannon
Can you explain the standardisation of making a 1M?
I have no access to HPUS, so anyone who knows the answer please chime in, let's get over that issue once and for all, please.
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
-
Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
- Posts: 2279
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Concerns about potency
So each manufacturing pharmacy has its own standard, meaning that distributing pharmacies or clients could buy one potency from one, the next from another and the next from yet another, ending up for example with a 30C at 10 succussions, a 200C at 100 succussions and a 1M at 200 succussions........not the same than a regular progression.
Then, when do they switch from manual to mechanical? Or, in the case of Hahnemann Pharmacy that you describe, are they doing ALL the potencies, from 3C, the same way?
What about the fluxion potencies? They work, yes, but they certainly are not equivalent or if someone claim they are, how can they prove it?
And there are many other questions that are not yet to be asked.....working on that, though.....
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
Then, when do they switch from manual to mechanical? Or, in the case of Hahnemann Pharmacy that you describe, are they doing ALL the potencies, from 3C, the same way?
What about the fluxion potencies? They work, yes, but they certainly are not equivalent or if someone claim they are, how can they prove it?
And there are many other questions that are not yet to be asked.....working on that, though.....
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
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Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Concerns about potency
So each manufacturing pharmacy has its own standard
This is one of those areas where Hahnemann himself held different opinions at different times (feel free to correct me, or maybe someone can supply specifics), and there has *always* been variation in the ways that different people have performed the succussions. I assume you agree with me on this bit of history? The dilution ratios have been straightforward, tho (1:9 or 1:99), except the wrinkles of fluxion and Korsakoff, and I have no idea what anyone's basis was for working *those* out...
meaning that distributing pharmacies or clients could buy one potency from one, the next from another and the next from yet another, ending up for example with a 30C at 10 succussions, a 200C at 100 succussions and a 1M at 200 succussions........not the same than a regular progression.
I've never heard of anyone using more than 100 succussions, but other than that, yes, as you know... As I would guess you *also* know, while a 200c made with 100 succussions is found by some to have a stronger action than the same potency made with 10 or 20 succussions, there is not a *huge* difference (not in my observation, anyway), and each does indeed behave more like a 200c made with different number of succussions, rather than like a vastly different potency made with same number of succussions.
I tend to buy my remedies according to various convenience factors (who has what; which is closer to whomever I'm sending it; and sometimes other uninteresting factors), and over the years have made random purchases from (so far as I remember): Hahnemann, Helios, Ainsworth's, Remedia, Boiron, and I'm sure I'm forgetting something. I have never had a 200 behave like a 30 or like a 6; neither have I ever had a low potency behave like a high one.
Has your experience with using remedies of various pharmacies been similar or different--or have you been fortunate enough to generally have what you need available from (by which I mean "made by") a single pharmacy?
Then, when do they switch from manual to mechanical? Or, in the case of Hahnemann Pharmacy that you describe, are they doing ALL the potencies, from 3C, the same way?
I have gathered that most switch from manual to e.g. fluxion (or perhaps mechanical) at 30c. But my understanding has been that Hahnemann (and probably some others too) does indeed use mechanical succussion for all of their potencies. I wouldn't take that to court, but that was my understanding.
What about the fluxion potencies? They work, yes, but they certainly are not equivalent or if someone claim they are, how can they prove it?
I think a pharmacy that made a habit of selling potencies that did not behave as they were expected to, would not stay in business very long. Do you disagree?
Shannon
So each manufacturing pharmacy has its own standard, meaning that distributing pharmacies or clients could buy one potency from one, the next from another and the next from yet another, ending up for example with a 30C at 10 succussions, a 200C at 100 succussions and a 1M at 200 succussions........not the same than a regular progression.
Then, when do they switch from manual to mechanical? Or, in the case of Hahnemann Pharmacy that you describe, are they doing ALL the potencies, from 3C, the same way?
What about the fluxion potencies? They work, yes, but they certainly are not equivalent or if someone claim they are, how can they prove it?
And there are many other questions that are not yet to be asked.....working on that, though.....
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
This is one of those areas where Hahnemann himself held different opinions at different times (feel free to correct me, or maybe someone can supply specifics), and there has *always* been variation in the ways that different people have performed the succussions. I assume you agree with me on this bit of history? The dilution ratios have been straightforward, tho (1:9 or 1:99), except the wrinkles of fluxion and Korsakoff, and I have no idea what anyone's basis was for working *those* out...
meaning that distributing pharmacies or clients could buy one potency from one, the next from another and the next from yet another, ending up for example with a 30C at 10 succussions, a 200C at 100 succussions and a 1M at 200 succussions........not the same than a regular progression.
I've never heard of anyone using more than 100 succussions, but other than that, yes, as you know... As I would guess you *also* know, while a 200c made with 100 succussions is found by some to have a stronger action than the same potency made with 10 or 20 succussions, there is not a *huge* difference (not in my observation, anyway), and each does indeed behave more like a 200c made with different number of succussions, rather than like a vastly different potency made with same number of succussions.
I tend to buy my remedies according to various convenience factors (who has what; which is closer to whomever I'm sending it; and sometimes other uninteresting factors), and over the years have made random purchases from (so far as I remember): Hahnemann, Helios, Ainsworth's, Remedia, Boiron, and I'm sure I'm forgetting something. I have never had a 200 behave like a 30 or like a 6; neither have I ever had a low potency behave like a high one.
Has your experience with using remedies of various pharmacies been similar or different--or have you been fortunate enough to generally have what you need available from (by which I mean "made by") a single pharmacy?
Then, when do they switch from manual to mechanical? Or, in the case of Hahnemann Pharmacy that you describe, are they doing ALL the potencies, from 3C, the same way?
I have gathered that most switch from manual to e.g. fluxion (or perhaps mechanical) at 30c. But my understanding has been that Hahnemann (and probably some others too) does indeed use mechanical succussion for all of their potencies. I wouldn't take that to court, but that was my understanding.
What about the fluxion potencies? They work, yes, but they certainly are not equivalent or if someone claim they are, how can they prove it?
I think a pharmacy that made a habit of selling potencies that did not behave as they were expected to, would not stay in business very long. Do you disagree?
Shannon
So each manufacturing pharmacy has its own standard, meaning that distributing pharmacies or clients could buy one potency from one, the next from another and the next from yet another, ending up for example with a 30C at 10 succussions, a 200C at 100 succussions and a 1M at 200 succussions........not the same than a regular progression.
Then, when do they switch from manual to mechanical? Or, in the case of Hahnemann Pharmacy that you describe, are they doing ALL the potencies, from 3C, the same way?
What about the fluxion potencies? They work, yes, but they certainly are not equivalent or if someone claim they are, how can they prove it?
And there are many other questions that are not yet to be asked.....working on that, though.....
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
-
Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
- Posts: 2279
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Concerns about potency
My answers in your text after ****** and highlighted
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
-
Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Concerns about potency
********* let me take the Silica example: many practitioners and books say it is a slow, deep acting remediy, but as many describe cases where one dose of a certain potency produced immediate sudden effects. My contention is that the difference is , of course in the patient and the indication, but also in the number of succussions. I have that theory (writing coming up with explanations and ways to test it....be patient.....) that each and every remedy has a different number of optimal succussions; above or below that, weak action, slow action; spot on, immediate action.
********** this is something I have never understood; what is the "behaviour" of a 6c or 30c or 200c??
Hm. Well, my initial experiences, both as patient and as student, were with remedies was all with 30 and up, mostly 200 and up. I had that for... well, probably at least 4 or 5 years before discussions on Lyghtforce, as well as discussions among fellow students, piqued my curiosity enough that I started investigating and "playing with" low potencies (mostly 6 and 12). During this time I have found situations where I have a very definite preference for high potencies, and others where I have an equally definite preference for low potencies. The reasons I prefer one for some situations and the other for others, is that their "behaviors" are different.
My recollection is that you have used both high and low potencies over many years. Are you honestly telling me that you don't notice differences in pacing and duration between the two potency groups? I'm not even sure where to go at the moment, because the idea that one could use both and not observe them to act differently just kind of has me scratching my head. I'm missing something... Help! Or maybe I should have simply specified that by "behavior" I am referring mostly to issues of pacing and duration, tho I guess other things can come into play too. ?????????
overseas, yes, same potency from different pharmacies behaved differently ALTHOUGH I must immediately add that this is an oxymoron as even the same potency from the same bottle will not "behave" the same way when repeated in a patient and a fortiori not with different patients
Can you describe the differences you noticed, between same potency from different pharmacies?
And of course I realize that same remedy, even from same bottle, will act differently at different times, in different patients, and etc. And yet Silica will behave like Silica, not like Sepia. It will act on a Silica picture (and there are many possible "silica pictures" and many possible ways of acting) and not on a non-silica picture.
Yet not *so* differently as to make you wonder whether the remedy or potency was something other than what the label said, surely?
******* again what do you mean by "behave as expected"????
If I thought I were taking a 6c of a remedy, and someone slipped me a 200 or 1M instead, I WOULD know the difference. Assuming the remedy is correct for me (hah, well at the moment that's a big "if", but at other times in my life that's not been so difficult), I would absolutely, unquestionably know whether I had taken a high or a low potency. Perhaps not the *exact* potency, and certainly there could be occasions where it would not be the case, but during my plain ol' regular ol' "constitutional" treatment, I would absolutely know. I would know because, *in me*, and for that situation, a 6c will "last" usually in the range of 4 days (has been as little as one, and as much as 7), while a 200 of same remedy will hold for some months (I count on at least 6-ish for my usual situations--and I am now talking about *myself*, realizing it will not be the same for every patient and situation), and a 1M for perhaps a year--in the past that had been quite reliable *for my own doses*.
When a remedy wears off sooner than I expected, the reason for me has *usually* been that the remedy isn't quite correct. So the difference between that vs. remedy wearing off sooner because the potency was lower than I thought, well, I'd like to hope I'd notice if that kept happening with remedies from one pharmacy but not from the others. But if I were giving remedies on a basis of "no expectations" as to effect and duration, well, then I guess I wouldn't notice.
Joe, please tell me what I'm missing here! I cannot believe you are saying that in your experience a 6c acts the same as a 1M--in the same case. ?????
Baffled,
Shannon
My answers in your text after ****** and highlighted
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
********** this is something I have never understood; what is the "behaviour" of a 6c or 30c or 200c??
Hm. Well, my initial experiences, both as patient and as student, were with remedies was all with 30 and up, mostly 200 and up. I had that for... well, probably at least 4 or 5 years before discussions on Lyghtforce, as well as discussions among fellow students, piqued my curiosity enough that I started investigating and "playing with" low potencies (mostly 6 and 12). During this time I have found situations where I have a very definite preference for high potencies, and others where I have an equally definite preference for low potencies. The reasons I prefer one for some situations and the other for others, is that their "behaviors" are different.
My recollection is that you have used both high and low potencies over many years. Are you honestly telling me that you don't notice differences in pacing and duration between the two potency groups? I'm not even sure where to go at the moment, because the idea that one could use both and not observe them to act differently just kind of has me scratching my head. I'm missing something... Help! Or maybe I should have simply specified that by "behavior" I am referring mostly to issues of pacing and duration, tho I guess other things can come into play too. ?????????
overseas, yes, same potency from different pharmacies behaved differently ALTHOUGH I must immediately add that this is an oxymoron as even the same potency from the same bottle will not "behave" the same way when repeated in a patient and a fortiori not with different patients
Can you describe the differences you noticed, between same potency from different pharmacies?
And of course I realize that same remedy, even from same bottle, will act differently at different times, in different patients, and etc. And yet Silica will behave like Silica, not like Sepia. It will act on a Silica picture (and there are many possible "silica pictures" and many possible ways of acting) and not on a non-silica picture.
Yet not *so* differently as to make you wonder whether the remedy or potency was something other than what the label said, surely?
******* again what do you mean by "behave as expected"????
If I thought I were taking a 6c of a remedy, and someone slipped me a 200 or 1M instead, I WOULD know the difference. Assuming the remedy is correct for me (hah, well at the moment that's a big "if", but at other times in my life that's not been so difficult), I would absolutely, unquestionably know whether I had taken a high or a low potency. Perhaps not the *exact* potency, and certainly there could be occasions where it would not be the case, but during my plain ol' regular ol' "constitutional" treatment, I would absolutely know. I would know because, *in me*, and for that situation, a 6c will "last" usually in the range of 4 days (has been as little as one, and as much as 7), while a 200 of same remedy will hold for some months (I count on at least 6-ish for my usual situations--and I am now talking about *myself*, realizing it will not be the same for every patient and situation), and a 1M for perhaps a year--in the past that had been quite reliable *for my own doses*.
When a remedy wears off sooner than I expected, the reason for me has *usually* been that the remedy isn't quite correct. So the difference between that vs. remedy wearing off sooner because the potency was lower than I thought, well, I'd like to hope I'd notice if that kept happening with remedies from one pharmacy but not from the others. But if I were giving remedies on a basis of "no expectations" as to effect and duration, well, then I guess I wouldn't notice.
Joe, please tell me what I'm missing here! I cannot believe you are saying that in your experience a 6c acts the same as a 1M--in the same case. ?????
Baffled,
Shannon
My answers in your text after ****** and highlighted
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
Re: Concerns about potency
For that matter, Dr. how do we really know that it is the medicine it says it is on the bottle?
Jeff
From: Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Concerns about potency
Remarks.....nobody answered that question I put earlier........1M, 10M, 50M.........how do you really know those are 1000CH, 10,000CH, 50,000CH??????
The 1M that aggravated SUsan might as well have been any potency and we have no idea what it was......same for the 200C, unless it is specifically mentioned that it was done by hand succussion or by the Korsakov method from 3C on, it could in reality be any potency...........
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
Jeff
From: Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Concerns about potency
Remarks.....nobody answered that question I put earlier........1M, 10M, 50M.........how do you really know those are 1000CH, 10,000CH, 50,000CH??????
The 1M that aggravated SUsan might as well have been any potency and we have no idea what it was......same for the 200C, unless it is specifically mentioned that it was done by hand succussion or by the Korsakov method from 3C on, it could in reality be any potency...........
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
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Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
- Posts: 2279
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Concerns about potency
A simple recent clinical example will, I hope, cover most of the bases here.
J is an autistic kid, vaccine injured. First treatment was isotherapic of the vaccines, enormous change (let's leave the arguments about that aside for the time being, OK?).
A few other remedies followed, close but no cigar.
Eventually I decided to give him a remedy that was everywhere in every repertorisation although not shining by its extreme strength: Sulphur, in an F series.
Starting at 3C.
Mum emails me after the 3C dose: "J took his powder, then came to tell me: tell Joe it is working! I took the powder and it went WOOOOSSSHHHH in my brain and the voices stopped".....
The other doses just did a wee bit of adjustments, honestly could have done without but that is only known retrospectively........
CURE, yes cure, achieved with 1 dose of a 3C.
Extreme case because in general I need an array of different potencies to get there, in the proper order.
Why?
Consider that the "vibrational state" of the patient has many different "waves" (in J's case, one major one only at that stage). But the remedy at its made up potency has only one "wave"; this obviously cannot cover the whole vibrational state, until it is brought back to a normal, healthy situation, then the next stage, if need be, will appear.
Clarified????
Yes silica will act as silica and not as sepia, but as a remedy not as a potency.
You are able to sense the difference because your specific wavelength is attuned to a certain "frequency" covered by what is supposed to be higher potencies. The fact the problems reappear demonstrates that either the remedies are not correct or that their administration is incorrect, i.e not all the needed potencies are given, hence allowing the "pathological wavelength" to reappear.
Makes sense?????
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
J is an autistic kid, vaccine injured. First treatment was isotherapic of the vaccines, enormous change (let's leave the arguments about that aside for the time being, OK?).
A few other remedies followed, close but no cigar.
Eventually I decided to give him a remedy that was everywhere in every repertorisation although not shining by its extreme strength: Sulphur, in an F series.
Starting at 3C.
Mum emails me after the 3C dose: "J took his powder, then came to tell me: tell Joe it is working! I took the powder and it went WOOOOSSSHHHH in my brain and the voices stopped".....
The other doses just did a wee bit of adjustments, honestly could have done without but that is only known retrospectively........
CURE, yes cure, achieved with 1 dose of a 3C.
Extreme case because in general I need an array of different potencies to get there, in the proper order.
Why?
Consider that the "vibrational state" of the patient has many different "waves" (in J's case, one major one only at that stage). But the remedy at its made up potency has only one "wave"; this obviously cannot cover the whole vibrational state, until it is brought back to a normal, healthy situation, then the next stage, if need be, will appear.
Clarified????
Yes silica will act as silica and not as sepia, but as a remedy not as a potency.
You are able to sense the difference because your specific wavelength is attuned to a certain "frequency" covered by what is supposed to be higher potencies. The fact the problems reappear demonstrates that either the remedies are not correct or that their administration is incorrect, i.e not all the needed potencies are given, hence allowing the "pathological wavelength" to reappear.
Makes sense?????
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
-
Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
- Posts: 2279
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Concerns about potency
We actually don't, until we have a proper testing method............ongoing research, watch this space but don't hold your breath.......
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com
Re: Concerns about potency
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Shannon Nelson wrote:
Hi Shannon,
Hahnemann Labs describes their procedure, with photos!
http://www.hahnemannlabs.com/preparation.html
Leilanae
Hi Shannon,
Hahnemann Labs describes their procedure, with photos!
http://www.hahnemannlabs.com/preparation.html
Leilanae