thoughts on hoarding behaviors?

[McPhee Family]

Has anyone had success with hoarding? This person is addicted to going to yardsales and getting "the best bargain ever." And she will clip coupons and buy tons of food she doesn't need. For example right now she said she has 25 boxes of cereal in her pantry... but she and her husband don't eat cereal... She said she bought them, "just in case they did eat the cereal." She has 20 bottles of salad dressing ... but they don't eat salad. But if there is something she really likes and will eat, she won't buy it if it's too expensive (like $3 - 5).
Her house is overstuffed with things. She said she buys things to make crafts, etc. but she knows she will never do the project. She saves boxes and boxes of newspapers .... "just in case" there is an article in there she might need ... even if the papers are years old! She will keep old milk in the fridge ... "just in case" she is going to bake and it requires sour milk. She can't let go of things. She is thinking something might be valuable and she'll be losing out if she sells them. So she can't sell them, "just in case" they are worth more.
She procrastinates and makes lists and lists of what she is going to do. Then she doesn't do it. She will find lists she made years ago with the same undone tasks on them. Thinks it all comes down to money. So if she throws out spoiled food, it would be a waste of money. Some things are *years* old.
She did well on Sulphur for two years but it seems like the hoarding became worse. I asked her what the "just in case" was and she said she didn't know ... perhaps not having anything. Is it Fear of Poverty?
Has been thinking a lot lately about not having enough money to live. Her father obsessed over every penny spent even though they were somewhat wealthy. They had no mortgage, no car payments, they always had new cars. He was also a hoarder (bargain hunter) but was also very fastidious about himself personally. He would be fanatical about washing his hands and utensils and teeth.
I'm having trouble figuring out how to put the hoarding into rubrics. I'm assuming they are M/E symptoms more so than physical symptoms. Any suggestions?
Thanks!
Truly,
Erica

[Rochelle]

Something I have saved from a discussion on this before - sorry but I don't know who wrote this lot which doesn't have a name under it. I suspect Shannon may have contributed!!!
My Old files on Hoarding:

　

Probably not complete search, and depends partly on whether food vs.

functional things vs. things of monetary value.

The word hoarding don't find in either repertory. Rfwrks search for hoard

(manually sifted)=

　

Hoard: 3Cent-so., 3Kali-c., 2ars., alab., benz-p., calc-f., dros., helo.,

hyos., lyc., meli., nux-v.

　

Avarice is the tendency to Hoard, so that is the closest rubric, most

likely.

　

　

MIND; GREED, cupidity (SRI-565) (65) : abies-c., acon., agar., all-c.,

all-s., ang., ant-c., ant-t., arg-n., ars., asaf., bry., calc., caps.,

carb-v., caust., cham., chin., chin-ar., cina, coff., euph., ferr.,

fl-ac., graph., hell., hep., hyos., iod., ip., kali-bi., kali-c., lob.,

lyc., mag-c., merc., mur-ac., nat-c., nat-m., nat-p., nat-s., nit-ac.,

nux-m., nux-v., op., petr., ph-ac., phos., plat., puls., rhus-t., sec.,

sep., sil., sol-n., spong., squil., stann., staph., sul-ac., sulph.,

tarent., thuj., verat., zinc.

MIND; GREED, cupidity; desires are greater than her need, her (1) : ars.

MIND; DESIRES; more than she needs (K35, SRI-389, G28) (5) : ars., ars-s-f.,

bar-s., bry., zinc-p.

MIND; FEAR; general; starving, of (K47, SRI-524, G37) (6) : ars., bry.,

calc., kali-m., sep., sulph.

MIND; DELUSIONS, imaginations; starve; he must (K33, SRI-358, G26) (2) :

kali-chl., kali-m.

MIND; FEAR; general; poverty (K46, SRI-518, G37) (23) : adam., ambr., ars.,

Bry., calc., calc-f., calc-s., calc-sil., cand-a., chlor., falco-p., graph.,

hydrog., kali-c., med., meli., nux-v., psor.,

puls., sep., stann., staph., sulph.

MIND; DELUSIONS, imaginations; fortune, that he is going to lose his (K26,

SRI-291, G21) (2) : psor., staph.

MIND; AVARICE (K9, SRI-102, G7) (38) : alum., ARS., bar-c., bry., calc.,

calc-f., carb-an., carb-v., carc., caust., cina, coloc., con., dulc.,

graph., hep., hyos., lach., lap-mar-c., lyc., med.,

meli., merc., nat-c., nat-m., nit-ac., nux-v., petr., ph-ac., phos., plat.,

Puls., rheum, sep., Sil., stann., staph., sulph.

　

　

Synthesis

MIND - AVARICE - anxiety about future; avarice frombry.;2;vh bry.;2;vh/dg

bry.;2;vhx1 granit-m.;1;es1 nux-v.;2;gl1 ph-ac.;2;gl1 psor.;2;vh

psor.;2;vh/dg psor.;2;vhx1 stann.;1;gl1

MIND - COLLECTS many thingsars.;2;mrr1 sulph.;1;mrr1 sulph.;1;oss

　

　

====================

　

Re: [H] history of a disease [Hoarding]

Date:

Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:37:18 -0800

From:

giniellis@juno.com

To:

BRoten1721@aol.com

CC:

homeopathy@homeolist.com

　

　

　

　
　

It could be but you REALLY have to ask the patient WHY they hoard to find

out if it IS fear of poverty... also HOW they feel when they hoard (as

well as how they feel when they can't hoard) is important. There are

different reasons (and feelings) associated with hoarding. When repping

the symptoms of hoarding it is important, as you probably already know,

to focus on the mental aspects behind the action and the anxiety it

produces before and after, rather on the action itself. You will not

find hoarding under MIND in Kent but there are other mind symptoms that

might be useful....

　

Hoarding can be a devastating ritual to not only the sufferer, but to the

immediate family. Also, while it sometimes proves difficult for us to

separate a hoarder from a collector, the person himself is usually quite

aware of the difference, as hoarding involves not the accumulation of

valuables, but rather the INABILITY to throw anything away. This is an

important piece of information when repping... why can't they throw

things away... maybe it's fear of poverty, but never assume. Ask

them.... get to the *feeling* behind the action.

　

There is usually a great deal of ANXIETY behind hoarding which leads to

the avoidance of parting with even what the person themselves consider

the most trivial items. Therefore, finding out what that anxiety is

proves important. In some situations the patient will develop a

paralysis of INDECISION which results in this avoidance of choosing what

to keep and what to discard. As in many other symptoms, there is a

*grain of truth* which promotes accumulating. For instance... It makes

sense to be prepared for an emergency such as a natural disaster (with

all the essentials such as water, canned goods, warm clothing, etc.).

The difference here with the hoarder is the question of "how much is

enough"? No one can predict the future (present astrologers excluded)

and it is this scary fact that promotes the hoarder to be overly prepared

for any eventuality. It is the ANXIETY of *dealing with uncertainty* and

*unpredictability* that lies behind this effort to be prepared, but often

the quest for "when is there enough" can never be quite answered.

　

Most of you know that in extreme cases hoarding is one of the OCD

spectrum disorders. Two of the most distressing aspects of OCD are the

questioning of one's own reality and the need for absolute certainty. I

always am amazed when I run across a rubric which describes this

confusion of reality so well - like when someone wonders "Am I really

here?" Other people are able to trust in their sense of reality ("I

definitely remember locking the door"), or they can tolerate uncertainty

("I don't really remember locking the door, but I'm pretty sure I did").

But the hoarder is compelled to repeat an action over and over again, to

save, save, save, to relieve the feeling of anxiety and to have absolute

certainty that they will have something if they ever need it.

　

One list member offered this: "The hoarding / collecting / gathering is

also a Merc. symptom, and there with the quality of inability to

differentiate between what is needed/wanted and what is not. Just keep it

all then perhaps something might come in useful."

　

Gini

　

Registered Homeopath
EFT(Advanced) Practitioner
www.southporthomeopathy.co.uk

[Liz Brynin]

It sounds like mega-Sulphur!! If she did well on it, but now it's stopped, maybe she needs a nosode - like Psorinum? And this has fear of poverty too.
The fear of germs shown by her father can be part of the Sulphur picture too (or syphilinum)
Liz

[Rochelle]

If we are going for Rx , my take would be Arsenicum!! Hoarding, fear of poverty, lists , saves money with coupons etc. So does this Rx fir any of her other traits?
Rochelle
Registered Homeopath
EFT(Advanced) Practitioner
www.southporthomeopathy.co.uk

[Tanya Marquette]

there seem to be issues of self-indulgence coupled with self-denial (both rubrics)
have you asked her what would happen if she didn't buy these useless bargains?
can you take her into that space within herself to describe what she feels in that state?
here is a rubric that sounds similar to some of what you describe

MIND - FEAR - poverty, of - spending money in order not to be short of it in future; fear of

Nux-v.gl1.fr spong.fd4.de stann.gl1.fr

[Sue Boyle]

Erica,

I agree with Rochelle. I had a client who I was sure was Ars but the confirmation came when I asked her daughter who told me there was a 3 car garage filled with items she could tell you where she bought them, how much they cost etc,. Did really well on the Ars.

Sue

[Lynn Cremona]

This was contributed by Gini Ellis a while back from two discussions, so
please forgive the repetition:

Hoarding Vs Collecting
The rubric that immediately comes to mind is (in Kent)
MIND, AVARICE :
ARS(3)., bry., calc-f., calc., cina., coloc., lyc.(2), meli., nat-c.,
puls.(2), rheum., sep.(3).
This is cross-referenced under “miserly” which brings out the hoarding a
bit more, and the archetypal miser in one type of Arsenicum figure.
However, I should also say that the other symptoms to me also stand out
as Arsenicum: fear of being late, of not getting things done (‘anxiety
when anything is expected of him”), insisting upon having THE right
object and no other, (“fastidious,’ full of cares about trifles.

Hoarding
A person who is a "pack-rat" to the extreme, to the point that it hinders
or interferes with their life (or that of their family) is known as a
"hoarder" which is a very common symptom of OCD. In fact it is one of
the most difficult symptoms of OCD. The collecting and hoarding becomes
a devastating ritual to not only the sufferer, but especially to the
immediate family. For the average person it may be difficult to separate
a hoarder from a collector, but the person himself is usually quite aware
of the difference, as the hoarding of OCD involves not the accumulation
of valuables, but rather the INABILITY to throw anything away. There is
also a great deal of ANXIETY behind hoarding which leads to the avoidance
of parting with even what the OCD person would consider the most trivial
items. They develop a paralysis of indecision which results in this
avoidance of choosing what to keep and what to discard. As in many other
symptoms, there is a grain of truth which promotes accumulating. For
instance... It makes sense to be prepared for an emergency such as a
natural disaster (with all the essentials such as water, canned goods,
warm clothing, etc.). The difference here with the OCD person, is the
question of how much is enough? No one can predict the future and it is
this scary fact that promotes the hoarder to be overly prepared for any
eventuality. It is the ANXIETY of dealing with uncertainty and
unpredictability that lies behind this effort to be prepared, but with
OCD working, the quest for when is there enough, can never be quite
answered.
In the case of hoarding old junk mail and newspapers, anxiety also plays
a key role in preventing the person from discarding anything that might
even remotely be considered important. The "what ifs?" creep in here and
cause agonizing indecision as to what can be safely thrown away. "What
if I need someday to refer back to an old article in the paper" or "What
if I throw out something valuable like an old lottery ticket by mistake?"
Coupons take on a compelling need to be saved. Doubt (also known as the
*doubting disease*) also lies behind this symptom as the person is AFRAID
he may lose something of significance and to quell this doubt, it becomes
much easier to avoid discarding things.
This can be a terrible burden to other people in the household as often
they are faced with confronting the person on the issue or going along
with the ever increasing accumulation in order to keep the peace, thus
ENABLING the disorder. Family members will see their living space
literally shrink before their eyes as more storage room is required.
Often, the OCD person or his family members will become too embarrassed
by the clutter to have company over and this only serves to isolate all
concerned, as well as to perpetuate the myth that this is somehow a
rational way to live. Even when friends and family members try to help
them dispose of their things (even with permission) they start worrying
about the possibility of something really important having been thrown
out or something that might be needed being given away, until the ANXIETY
is so great they are compelled to bring the things back.
It's quite common for OCD to surface after a catastrophic event (my
daughter's started after the earthquake of '89 in our area). Apparently
stress causes a serotonin imbalance in the brain (allopathically
speaking). Quite often these disorders run in families. Many times I
have heard of married partners both having the tendencies. One person in
our OCD support group has a sister and brother-in-law who hoard so much
stuff between the two of them that they own two houses and both are
packed sky high... and, if you can believe this, they live in an
apartment because they can't get into the houses.
There is someone who hoards so much electronics (his wife won't
allow any more in the house or garage) that he bought 4 gigantic storage
containers - which are already full - to store the stuff in... plus he
rents a
warehouse for the rest. But, is he truly a hoarder?
I'm not so sure since he doesn't mind selling or trading his test
equipment.
I'd say he probably fits into the category of pack-rat. One way to
tell the
difference is by the ANXIETY level of the person when they are asked to
throw
things out or give them away..
In such outstanding cases, most who know them would agree that this
is Strange Rare and Peculiar.
I guess I always have to question whether this really is a true SRP
symptom.
Terrible feelings and ANXIETY are an intrinsic part of OCD.
The victim gets a frightening thought... the thought creates anxiety,
they relieve the anxiety by performing a ritual, or in this case, by
collecting
and hoarding.
Therefore, the anxiety created by the *thought* of getting rid of stuff
must be addressed and repertorized more than the actual act of hoarding
(although that is also important) - So, I have to wonder is the
compulsive act of hoarding actually an SRP symptom or is it "part of the
disorder" of OCD? Focusing a little more on the mental aspect of the
patient (what their thoughts are, what causes their anxiety, why they
feel the need to collect, why they fear throwing or giving things away,
what the most anxiety causing part of hoarding is to them, etc.) rather
than focusing on the physical manifestations of hoarding, might possibly
lead the homeopath to a remedy which is deeper and faster acting.
I might add here that two of the most distressing aspects of OCD are the
questioning of one's own reality and the need for absolute certainty
(look for these rubrics). Other people are able to trust in their sense
of reality ("I definitely remember locking the door"), or they can
tolerate uncertainty ("I don't really remember locking the door, but I'm
pretty sure I did"). But the OCD sufferer is compelled to repeat an
action over and over again (as in hoarding) in an effort to relieve their
particular anxiety. The goal in cognitive therapy is to develop trust in
one's reality and to learn to accept and live with uncertainty because on
one hand they know what they are doing is irrational but on the other
they feel like they can't control it and it gets mastery over them.
In homeopathy it's important to remember that ANXIETY is almost always
the predominant force behind the development of OCD and it's spectrum
disorders. It is the essential core on which the symptoms are clustered,
like the planets revolving around the sun. Unlike common anxiety, or
performance anxiety, the anxiety level in OCD runs very high. An effort
to alleviate the anxiety is developed into an elaborate system of
repetitive thoughts, rituals and compulsions... hoarding is only one of
them.
Gini Ellis
----------------------------------------
couldn't hoarding as easily be fear of poverty?
It could be but you REALLY have to ask the patient WHY they hoard to find
out if it IS fear of poverty... also HOW they feel when they hoard (as
well as how they feel when they can't hoard) is important. There are
different reasons (and feelings) associated with hoarding.

When repping the symptoms of hoarding it is important, as you probably
already know,
to focus on the mental aspects behind the action and the anxiety it
produces before and after, rather on the action itself. You will not
find hoarding under MIND in Kent but there are other mind symptoms that
might be useful....

Hoarding can be a devastating ritual to not only the sufferer, but to the
immediate family. Also, while it sometimes proves difficult for us to
separate a hoarder from a collector, the person himself is usually quite
aware of the difference, as hoarding involves not the accumulation of
valuables, but rather the INABILITY to throw anything away. This is an
important piece of information when repping... why can't they throw
things away... maybe it's fear of poverty, but never assume. Ask
them.... get to the *feeling* behind the action.

There is usually a great deal of ANXIETY behind hoarding which leads to
the avoidance of parting with even what the person themselves consider
the most trivial items. Therefore, finding out what that anxiety is
proves important. In some situations the patient will develop a
paralysis of INDECISION which results in this avoidance of choosing what
to keep and what to discard. As in many other symptoms, there is a
*grain of truth* which promotes accumulating. For instance... It makes
sense to be prepared for an emergency such as a natural disaster (with
all the essentials such as water, canned goods, warm clothing, etc.).
The difference here with the hoarder is the question of "how much is
enough"? No one can predict the future (present astrologers excluded)
and it is this scary fact that promotes the hoarder to be overly prepared
for any eventuality. It is the ANXIETY of *dealing with uncertainty* and
*unpredictability* that lies behind this effort to be prepared, but often
the quest for "when is there enough" can never be quite answered.

Most of you know that in extreme cases, hoarding is one of the OCD
spectrum disorders. Two of the most distressing aspects of OCD are the
questioning of one's own reality and the need for absolute certainty. I
always am amazed when I run across a rubric which describes this
confusion of reality so well - like when someone wonders "Am I really
here?" Other people are able to trust in their sense of reality ("I
definitely remember locking the door"), or they can tolerate uncertainty
("I don't really remember locking the door, but I'm pretty sure I did").

But the hoarder is compelled to repeat an action over and over again, to
save, save, save, to relieve the feeling of anxiety and to have absolute
certainty that they will have something if they ever need it.

One list member offered this:
"The hoarding / collecting / gathering is
also a Merc. symptom, and there with the quality of inability to
differentiate between what is needed/wanted and what is not. Just keep it
all then perhaps something might come in useful."

Gini

[Jean Doherty]

What is it when waste is paramount to sin as opposed to hoarding I wonder, Jean

[Joy Lucas]

I used the avarice rubric, amongst others, finally in a case I thought
was sulphur but turned out to be Lyc - not only was the focus on not
wanting to waste, which is ironic seeing as that was the end result,
but it was having the power to do this, making his home his by
surrounding himself with hoarded items.

Another case involved tremendous impulsive shopping sprees (Arg nit
was the rx) so you might want to look at the impulsive rubric as well.

Joy

http://www.joylucashomeopathy.com
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/homeopathystudy/

[Gail A]

I think it's Kent who says that it's surprising to see that after you
give Sulphur for a while and the patient begins to look like Arsenic.

It also makes me think of Iodine which is an OCD remedy, writes lots of
lists, maybe a refugee background in the family which could result in
hoarding?

Gail
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Sue Boyle wrote: