Mag Chloride issues was Muscular distrophy

[healthinfo6]

Each 64mg mag chloride tablet has 212mg of calcium, way over any recommended ratio of Mg/Ca. At 26/day, you're taking almost 6 grams of calcium/day in addition to any dietary calcium. That's 6x the amount of calcium recommended/day and can lead to kidney damage and failure.

Calcium is supplemented in many foods and is stored in the body while Mg is easily excreted and barely supplemented in foods and is quickly depleted by refined sugar, alcohol. The theory that bone loss and osteoporosis is caused by lack of calcium is in reality a magesium deficiency but that hasn't stopped pharma and food mfrs from pu$hing the idea. Too late to reverse course.

That's the problem when using a patented vitamin sold by a pharmaceutical company, relying on research to support their product, whether it is actually better in the short run but damaging in the long run.

The Slow Mag brand is made by Purdue Pharma. They also make Oxycontin. They plead guilty and were fined $635 million and admitted that "they falsely claimed OxyContin was less addictive, less subject to abuse, and less likely to cause withdrawal symptoms than rival pain medications."

Now that's a company I can trust and want to support!

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNe ... 5020070510

There are a couple of other generic mag chlorides but they also have the same added calcium. Besides Mag Taurate I mentioned previously, I use Mag Citrate, both with no added calcium and various potencies of elemental magnesium per dose available.. To gloss over the fact that Mag Chloride has too much added calcium by then saying one has to eat more leafy green vegetables to get enough Vit K to keep the calcium in the bones seems a questionable approach especially in children who just love leafy green vegetables in huge quantities along with anyone who may have kidney problems.

Susan
Irene wrote:

"Diet to "feed" muscle always includes Magnesium and here I can
suggest the best forms of it:
In chronic disease - per research in Italy sent to me by private
correspondence to help my own situation which involves magnesium and
muscle weakness from breakdown) the best Mg for baseline feeding is
Magnesium Chloride (MgCl as in Slowmag or Magdelay tradenames). The
body handles this better and it does more good in muscle areas. I
regret I do not know why this is, just that it is true. I know the
difference in hours if I swap to another form of background Magnesium.
I say "background" magnesium as MgCl takes 8 hrs to absorb. The
tablets only have 64mg of Mg each so lots are needed.
(For my own illness I need 26 a day, but just use what is needed for
each specific case, I mention this so you are not surprised that it
might need a lot. I'd work up gradually. MgCl can cause loose stools
if not well absorbed - see below on B6.)

What I do for active times such as if I am going out and expecting to
use my muscles more than usual for a while, or planning a bit of
exercise (never do more than 10 mins at a time, or it increases
stress, cortisol and breakdown) - is to take 6 tablets of Magnesium
gluconate an hour in advance of the planned activity. This takes only
an hour to absorb and provides a peak level for a short while during
activity. The 6 at a time is because magnesium gluconate tablets only
have 30- mg of actual Mg each.
Six is right for me - found by experiment. I average 3 sets of 6 a
day to give an idea.
It's also very important for the potassium level to be just right -
NOT below 4.0. Potassium is needed to hold the magnesium.

Vit B6 is also very relevant as that is another nerve nutrient along
with Magnesium and also is needed to absorb Magnesium and vice versa
- need Mg and B6 to absorb each other.

The magnesium I suggested will come with calcium but the diet also
needs lots of green leaf veg to ensure high Vit K to keep the calcium
in the bones and prevent scoliosis and related issues."

________________________________

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[Dave Hartley]

In theory, a decent diet containing a large proportion of preferably
organic vegetables would supply all necessary vitamins & minerals ?

So, barring some emergency use of concentrates / supplements, would
the preferable holistiq treatment be to address issues of absorption?
Even in the case of some perceived need to "supplement" .. would it
not be preferable to use whole-food supplementation - juicing perhaps
? .. or removing from diet those things which could present "obstacle
to cure" in terms of possibly undermining the balance (precursor
assimilation ?) in various noted deficiencies ?

And, since we're contributing to "classical homeopathy" email list,
might that not be considered to be the preferred treatment modality?

The Cartesian reductionist paradigm of cutting everything into tiny
bits, and then pretending that the whole EQUALS the sum of the bits is
demonstrably lacking in integrity (materially as well as
philosphically, even if one prefers not to go into spiritually.)

The "best" of the allopathic ... is perhaps demonstrated in this
kind of mineral / vitamin supplementation .. as it is at least
operating in non-poisonous (hopefully) manner -- but it is still the
allopathic mindset.

How can "cure" come of it ?

How can biochemical tinkering as if we were little tin godz cure anything?

Homeopathy, through means as yet not wholly understood, is able to
evoke cure ... whereas monkey-wrenching on various inter /
intra-cellular chemical reactions may palliate symptoms ; may or may
not have some deeper negative effect down the timeline.

It's fine to have the information that some apparent deficiency exists....
Perhaps such information will be useful from homeopathic perspective,
in addressing dis-ease within the individual who exhibits said
deficiency. Interesting too, maybe, as followup testing along the
course of apparent success in treating said individual.
warm wishes,
david 510.776.5914 fax: 510.336.6671
www.holistiq.com
www.DavidHartley.com
I.T. support: www.cafegratitude.com
co-founder: www.GratefulMindandBody.com
web developer: www.iamResourceful.com

[Liz Brynin]

"In theory, a decent diet containing a large proportion of preferably organic vegetables would supply all necessary vitamins & minerals ?"
David - I think it's fair to say that nowadays it's extremely difficult - in fact nigh on impossible - to obtain all one's vitamins and minerals from food alone. The soil nowadays is so depleted in necesary minerals, for a start, and then there is the problem of transport and storage, which means that most food is stale and has lost large amounts of vitamins by the time it's consumed.
If you grow your own organic vegetables, eat them fresh from the garden, you're in with a chance, but how many of us can do that?
Liz

[Irene de Villiers]

Sigh.
Not true.
Again - not true.
I dunno where you learned all this misinformation?
(I am assuming you do not happen to sell some products and thus try
to discredit others? I ask as your emails are generally very
contentious, and not based on research findings.)
You could not be more wrong.
The whole subject of mineral metabolism is quite complex, and the
absorption and excretion of minerals has several factors to be
considered.
Dozens of factors apply, one of which is that magnesium can only be
excreted if there is about twice as much calcium available to be
excreted at the same time. This is why a 64 mg tablet of MgCl has
106mg of calcium with it - LESS than double to allow for some dietary
calcium as well.
Another factor is that calcium is not "stored in the body" as you
claim but is used in metabolism including that of bone, and excess is
excreted.
Keeping calcium in bone needs Vit K. (Lack of Vit K leads to
osteoporosis regardless how much calcium people eat and excrete)
Excreting it needs magnesium. (Lack of Mg leads to high calcium in
blood, which can be there along with osteoporosis)

We have ONE small point of agreement in all your email - namely that
more magnesium is needed in most diets.
Best way to get it by diet is to eat lots of dark green leaf veg, as
that comes with Vit K as well.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

I'd say it needs a decent whack of organic meats as well.
I do not think so in this case because we are dealing with a
metabolic LACK of something normally present.
The magnesium and other items suggested are to help to overcome the
genetic lack of that chemical and the dire consequences in the body
that are already very evident.

Normal nutrition works for normal people, but if you have a health
issue to overcome then it is smart to add what's missing by
supplementing it - in addition to eating a good diet.
Not for metabolic misprints. It's a quantity thing.
The quantity needed in a genetic misprint is very hard to obtain
naturally. By all means do it as much as possible. But if for example
the need is for as much magnesium as I need (also due to genetic
misprint though a different one from that in the muscular dystophy
children) then I'd need to juice more than is reasonable. Let's use
spinach as a good source of magnesium, it has 24 mg of magnesium in a
cup. I need 2204 mg of Mg a day so that would be 92 cups of spinach a
day I'd have to juice.
Even if I could afford that financially, and had the energy to make
it and the spinach source, I am not sure that it would be something I
could swallow, day in and day out. I'd also be worried that it OVER-
supplies something I need in normal amounts.

So in cases like this, it is better to use actual supplements.
That maintains balance of other nutrients.

In my specific case, I eat a lot of green veg, but NOT 91 cups a day
- more often dandelions than spinach (same Mg value), so i eat
healthily, but I need the Mg I take in addition to that.
91 cups of juiced spinach or dandelion a day is not going to do the
trick, however much you may want it to.
One has to see things in context.
The body's inability to correctly use Mg (or as in my case inability
to retain it to use it before it is excreted) requires a different
approach that works.
It is part of the necessary nutrient support, and not inconsistent
with homeopathy. One must supply the necessary nutrients in whatever
crazy quantity they may be needed to heal, or it would be an obstacle
to cure.

I'm all for using natural juicing etc as part of the approach - I'm
realistic enough to know that it is not enough in specific
situations, and that providing all the needed nutrient is necessary
however it is done.
It is anything but allopathic!
Supplying what is missing is not opposing what is there!
On the contrary it is helping what is there, which is homeopathic not
allopathic.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[healthinfo6]

Quick update, I've read two different versions of ingredients, one says 212mg Ca per 64mg MgCl, the other per 128mg MgCl. Either way still more Ca than necessary unless one absolutely consumes no other calcium source.

Susan

[healthinfo6]

Irene wrote in bold:

(I am assuming you do not happen to sell some products and thus try
to discredit others? I ask as your emails are generally very
contentious, and not based on research findings.)

How is challenging your conclusions of possibly biased research "discrediting others"?

Only may appear contentious since you never provide any research links to what you state as fact. Are you worried others might read the research and have a different interpretation than yours?

Still waiting for your research links about musuclar dystrophy and mag chloride. I provided some and no definite conclusion that magnesium chloride has superior benefits in humans, maybe in mice where Duchene's was chemically induced. What can be inferred is that chloride is important, salt, NaCl works well too but possibly di-chloride is better.

The original Italian studies of magesium chloriide were done without added calcium..

I did find 2 sources of MgCl2 without added calcium but they are made by non-pharma vitamin-health companies. Since you promote pharma versions, like Slow Mag, the company who makes it was already discredited through illegal Oxycontin promotion. Wny would a homeopath support them? You can buy the natural version and add calcium to it.
You could not be more wrong.

Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Oct;86(4):1054-63
Daily intakes of calcium ranged between 415 and 1740 mg.
CONCLUSION: The findings suggest that the calcium requirement for men and women is lower than previously estimated.

http://www.mgwater.com/calmagab.shtml

"Dr. Guy Abraham, M.D., a research gynecologist and endocrinologist in premenstrual syndrome and osteoporosis has found strong evidence to suggest that women with osteoporosis have a deficiency of a chemical that is made when they take twice as much magnesium as calcium. In fact, he has found that when calcium intake is decreased, it is utilized better than when it is high. Dr. Abraham is one of many doctors and biochemists who advocate taking more magnesium to correct calcium-deficiency diseases."
The whole subject of mineral metabolism is quite complex, and the
absorption and excretion of minerals has several factors to be
considered.
Dozens of factors apply, one of which is that magnesium can only be
excreted if there is about twice as much calcium available to be
excreted at the same time.

Magnesium is excreted from consumption of caffeine, alcohol, refined sugar, fructose, too much animal protein along with hormones produced by stress where maganesium spills into urine and diarrhea. This happens regardless of twice calcium levels, but feel free to provide research links to suggest otherwise.

This is why a 64 mg tablet of MgCl has
106mg of calcium with it - LESS than double to allow for some dietary
calcium as well.

Whose research concludes this, that of the company seliing Slow Mag?

Another factor is that calcium is not "stored in the body" as you
claim but is used in metabolism including that of bone, and excess is
excreted.

"Calcium is the most abundant mineral found in the human body. The majority (99%) is stored in the bones and teeth; the rest is stored in muscle tissue and blood. In addition to bone building and remodeling, calcium is also responsible for muscle contraction, central nervous function and hormone secretion"

Keeping calcium in bone needs Vit K. (Lack of Vit K leads to
osteoporosis regardless how much calcium people eat and excrete)

Not definitive on K1, more on K2 but requiiring phamacologic doses. Why not take Vitamin K2, sold indiviidually, since food will not give you the dosage necessary?

Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2001 Nov;4(6):483-7.

"The K vitamins, a group of napthoquinones, are required for the carboxylation of a limited number of proteins including the bone matrix protein osteocalcin. Vitamin K1 (phylloquinone) and vitamin K2 (menaquinones), differ regarding food source (green vegetables and fermented products, respectively), bioavailability and intermediate metabolism. Epidemiological studies provide evidence for an association between a low vitamin K intake and an enhanced osteoporotic fracture risk. Doses of vitamin K1 up to 15 times the current recommended dietary allowance have successfully been used to reduce the percentage of undercarboxylated osteocalcin in the circulation. Studies demonstrating clear beneficial effects on bone health, however, are still lacking. In contrast, therapy with very high pharmacological doses of the vitamin K2 menatetrenone has impressively been used to prevent further bone mineral loss and fracture risk in osteoporotic patients."

Excreting it needs magnesium. (Lack of Mg leads to high calcium in
blood, which can be there along with osteoporosis)

Or, too much calcium intake leads to high calcium in blood.
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[Shannon Nelson]

Actually different people do best with different ratios of Ca to Mg;
some do better with higher proportion of Ca, others with higher Mg. I
have this both from reading and from experience. (I know nothing
about the product, so am speaking entirely in the abstract.)

[Irene de Villiers]

It is printed on the bottle by law you know
I use several a month, and any pharmacist can show you one - but you
prefer to argue.
Ends the discussion for me.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

Irene did not write in bold.
I do not like liars and will decline to read the rest.
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."