Well here's a new one!!!!! More!!

[Nancy Siciliana]

I agree that patients will often be misinformed on the use of remedies like Arnica.

There are thousands of websites--quite a lot of them run by MDs and naturopaths who are trained along the conventional medical model--which promote the use of Arnica PRE-SURGERY, just like Paul's example, to their patients. There are millions of health food stores with staff who also have no idea about the use of this remedy (and if you ever get a chance to read some of the promotional literature put out by labs like Unda or Boiron for example, you won't be surprised about why these people are misinformed) promoting its misuse to anyone who walks in. Paul Booys' example is pretty much the way conventional medicine understands medicine--they use every substance the way they'd use their own substances, and they don't bother to figure out whether or not arnica would be used that way by a homeopath or in traditional homeopathic clinical use. They just don't think such things exist: it's ignorance, that's all.

I advise my patients to take a dose of Arnica just before being taken to surgery--and my reasons for this are because no one on the hospital staff will carry out the patients' wishes to be dosed with the arnica post surgery, and when the patient awakes in the recovery room, they will be alone and they will have no access to the arnica to administer a dose for themselves. So this, to me, means needless suffering, particularly because arnica can help the traumatized tissue heal much more readily, and lessen the patient's pain as well. One dose on the way to surgery allows the patient to avoid all of this, and by then, the patient is already in a kind of shock anyway (there's a good chance they've been sedated during prep and they're often frightened), so it isn't at all like the remedy isn't homeopathic to the case even at that point. Post surgery, they're given some direction on how to dose with arnica and other remedies that may be useful to their own case that they will be able to administer themselves. Everything works much more smoothly this way, the doctors are impressed with the quick recovery, the patients feel in control and healthier more quickly, everyone's happy.
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: pb000014@pixie.co.za
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:54:00 +0200
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Well here's a new one!!!!! More!!
Hi Rosemary,
Maybe he has a point. Some years back they ran a "trial" in South Africa. Some plastic surgeons (doing facials etc) had some patients on Arnica. They noted more bruising and a tendency to bleed more. Of course the homeopathic community denounced this as "nonsense propaganda". BUT, the patients were taking Arnica 200c starting 2 weeks pre-op. This was on instruction from professionals. Unfortunately it is is taught here (as probably in other countries) that homeopathy is totally safe.
You mentioned it works on different planes. Well, irrespective, basic homeopathy teaches about provings. A proving sets up the susceptibility to stresses (by mimicking the disease state) and then all you need is the stressor (the injury-surgery).
In my opinion these patients were doing provings. Once they had surgery the process was complete and they bled. This has been a bane of my life, as I often recommend arnica and have great resistance to it's use. But, I recommend it's use after the op, once the injury is done, so that the arnica now works to oppose the disease state, not progress as a proving.
I also recommend a lower potency.
regards,
Paul
________________________________
________________________________

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[Rosemary C. Hyde, Ph.D.]

Good point, Paul. I was obviously not thinking of dramatic overdosing pre-op. Rosemary
I have always found that mercy bears richer fruits than strict justice.

-Abraham Lincoln, 16th U.S. President (1809-1865)
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nancy Siciliana
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:22 AM
To: Minutus MailingList
Subject: RE: [Minutus] Well here's a new one!!!!! More!!
I agree that patients will often be misinformed on the use of remedies like Arnica.

There are thousands of websites--quite a lot of them run by MDs and naturopaths who are trained along the conventional medical model--which promote the use of Arnica PRE-SURGERY, just like Paul's example, to their patients. There are millions of health food stores with staff who also have no idea about the use of this remedy (and if you ever get a chance to read some of the promotional literature put out by labs like Unda or Boiron for example, you won't be surprised about why these people are misinformed) promoting its misuse to anyone who walks in. Paul Booys' example is pretty much the way conventional medicine understands medicine--they use every substance the way they'd use their own substances, and they don't bother to figure out whether or not arnica would be used that way by a homeopath or in traditional homeopathic clinical use. They just don't think such things exist: it's ignorance, that's all.

I advise my patients to take a dose of Arnica just before being taken to surgery--and my reasons for this are because no one on the hospital staff will carry out the patients' wishes to be dosed with the arnica post surgery, and when the patient awakes in the recovery room, they will be alone and they will have no access to the arnica to administer a dose for themselves. So this, to me, means needless suffering, particularly because arnica can help the traumatized tissue heal much more readily, and lessen the patient's pain as well. One dose on the way to surgery allows the patient to avoid all of this, and by then, the patient is already in a kind of shock anyway (there's a good chance they've been sedated during prep and they're often frightened), so it isn't at all like the remedy isn't homeopathic to the case even at that point. Post surgery, they're given some direction on how to dose with arnica and other remedies that may be useful to their own case that they will be able to administer themselves. Everything works much more smoothly this way, the doctors are impressed with the quick recovery, the patients feel in control and healthier more quickly, everyone's happy.

________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: pb000014@pixie.co.za
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:54:00 +0200
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Well here's a new one!!!!! More!!
Hi Rosemary,
Maybe he has a point. Some years back they ran a "trial" in South Africa. Some plastic surgeons (doing facials etc) had some patients on Arnica. They noted more bruising and a tendency to bleed more. Of course the homeopathic community denounced this as "nonsense propaganda". BUT, the patients were taking Arnica 200c starting 2 weeks pre-op. This was on instruction from professionals. Unfortunately it is is taught here (as probably in other countries) that homeopathy is totally safe.
You mentioned it works on different planes. Well, irrespective, basic homeopathy teaches about provings. A proving sets up the susceptibility to stresses (by mimicking the disease state) and then all you need is the stressor (the injury-surgery).
In my opinion these patients were doing provings. Once they had surgery the process was complete and they bled. This has been a bane of my life, as I often recommend arnica and have great resistance to it's use. But, I recommend it's use after the op, once the injury is done, so that the arnica now works to oppose the disease state, not progress as a proving.
I also recommend a lower potency.
regards,

Paul
________________________________
________________________________

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[Hart Matthews]

Hi all,

I think it's Roger Morrison who lists Talwin (pentazocine) as a drug that shouldn't be given with potentized Arnica. I don't know why.

I couldn't find Talwin in my PDR, but the same drug in different mixes is marketed as Fortal and Talacen, too. Here's the Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentazocine

Regards,
Hart Matthews
Durham, NC
US
--
Man will become better when you show him what he is like.
- Anton Chekov

[Liz Brynin]

Hi Rochelle
But why take it before? There is no injury to heal at that point. It's only after the op that it becomes necessary. So beforehand it could well do more harm than good.
Liz
________________________________

[Rochelle]

Dear Liz,
As someone else quite rightly said the chance of being able to take an Arnica immediately the patient comes round from the operation is niltch as no one would give them one so by giving 1 Arnica 30 on the way down to the theatre at least it is getting in the system to alleviate any shock. I have never had a problem with prescribing this way.
Rochelle
Registered Homeopath
EFT(Advanced) Practitioner
www.southporthomeopathy.co.uk

[Shannon Nelson]

But right after the operation they'll still be feeling fine from the
surgical anaesthetics, won't they?

[Vera Resnick]

In general I haven't prescribed Arnica pre-op for the reasons given here. But ever since I had a patient who was constitutional Arnica, self-medicated before a root canal, and bled so profusely that they had to stop working on him - I wouldn't give Arnica pre-op. I think remedies are most helpful when they are clearly indicated - I don't know if it would help that much in the trip down to surgery and I'd be concerned.

Having said that - is it possible that the mental pre-op state suits Arnica? Because if so, it is indicated and can justify giving the remedy pre-op. Especially if the patient is touch agg, "I'm fine" type of behaviour.

I find myself arguing both sides of the question at the same time. Definitely got up too early this morning! Either that or too much Talmud study...

Vera
________________________________

[Sue Smith]

Yes indeed, the 200C was way too high & set up a proving situation as
Paul said. I use 30s + Calendula 6s very similarly to Rochelle pre &
post op too as well as Arnica 30s + Ledum &/or Hypericum 6s pre & post
dental work as quite safe therapeutics, but have to say that I've never
(had to) prescribe Arnica for anyone on Warfarin. If the situation
arose, then my instinct would be to keep the Arnica to say a 6C or
lower.
Sue
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "rochelle" wrote:
a couple of times after the op. This is how I prescribe it. I then go
on to Calendula 6 tds to heal any wound. I've been prescribing this for
years without any mishap!!

[Shannon Nelson]

Hi Vera,
Do you know what potency and repetition your constitutional Arnica guy
took--and what doses he'd had of it previously? (And whether he was
otherwise prone to bleeding?)
Thanks,
Shannon

[Nancy Siciliana]

They may be feeling fine from the anaesthetics but the physical trauma to the body's tissues and the loss of blood from that trauma needs Arnica. Just because they don't feel it yet doesn't mean it hasn't happened during surgery. Physical trauma to tissue is an accurate definition of surgery, after all.

As for anaesthetics, I always like to make sure the patient has a nice dose of Phosphorus 200c waiting for when they're returned from the recovery room. If there's any vomiting or any other ill-effects from the anaesthetic, it works very well. But that remedy can wait until the patient has come to, and can dose him or herself. Arnica cannot.

Also--there's a very good chance the patient's already in a "shock" state while they're being taken down to the theatre--that's why docs give them sedatives during prep. Arnica is a remedy for shock too--so giving a dose before can in fact be homeopathic to the patient's case and state, even if no trauma has yet occured. Knowing one's coming may make the patient want to centre him or herself to deal with the disorientation of the fear, too.

________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: shannonnelson@tds.net
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:56:09 -0600
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Well here's a new one!!!!! More!!

But right after the operation they'll still be feeling fine from the surgical anaesthetics, won't they?
Dear Liz,
As someone else quite rightly said the chance of being able to take an Arnica immediately the patient comes round from the operation is niltch as no one would give them one so by giving 1 Arnica 30 on the way down to the theatre at least it is getting in the system to alleviate any shock. I have never had a problem with prescribing this way.
Rochelle
Registered Homeopath
EFT(Advanced) Practitioner
www.southporthomeopathy.co.uk