potentizing supplements

[Luise Kunkle]

Hi Donna,
For whatever reason: it shows that homeopathic remedies can work,
whether prescribed by homeopathic principles or by others.

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

[Ellen Madono]

Dear Luise (and Donna),

Luise you have greatly improved my New Years mood. Yeah, I have to loosen up. I read these dogmatic purist arguments and wonder why even discuss any subject. The subject can be just shut down by claiming I am pure and you are not. Any response that smells of that kind of argumentation and I am telling myself "Give me a bucket of sand. I have to bury my head." No... Relax. That is just a severe reaction to what the pure side sees as the absolute truth of any particular version of orthodoxy. Relax. We are in a new political era. Hopefully. At least a more open atmosphere is starting back again in many places.

I am wondering about the literature sources for balancing intake as opposed to opening up assimilation for cell salts. Makes total physiological sense. How would it occur? Are there negative feedback systems involved? Aren't those cell salts just potentized nutrient elements given in physical doses? Perhaps that's why they say take so many of x cell salt pills. Since potentizing can be done to anything, it should work elsewhere. I actually have a Japanese cell salt book recomending cell salts made from elements like zinc *not a traditional cell salt). The influence is British.

As Donna says, tailoring the mineral cocktail to the individual is ideal I wonder why she had the caveat that her repertory for minerals is only for stressed individuals. Isn't that the case for any rep? Since we know that certain minerals are being wholesale depleted by industrial farming, couldn't this cocktail fit the "epidemic disease" paradigm that Hahnemann gave us. I don't know the details of this, so I am really just asking. Luise, I suppose you would suggest giving one of the depleted minerals at a time. Maybe potentized if the material substance does not produce any noticeable reaction. Sherry Rogers (Tired or Toxic and many other books on hypersensitivity) has a protocal for magnesium where she gives a mega dose and looks for an effect in a problem that should be affected by magnesium. Then, she adjusts the amount if the problem improves after a few doses. She also give lab testing for specific deficiencies. Testing the individual so you can figure out the effect seems essential. I am very interested in ways of doing this.

Best,
Ellen Madono

Happy New Years,
Ellen Madono

[d_rona2000]

Hello Ellen,

Looking over the post history it would seem that Luise and I have
been the only participants. I can only therefore assume you think I
am a 'dogmatic purist' who is 'arguing' with you or somehow shutting
down a topic. I sincerely appologize. I thought we were engaged in
a discussion about an interesting topic. I do have opinions and some
experience, otherwise I would not have entered the discussion. I am
truly sorry if my opinions or discussion are so offensive to you.

Reguarding my book - there again seems to be a misunderstanding - I
certainly did not intend to give the impression that " her repertory
for minerals is only for stressed individuals". Again, I obviously
did not communicate well. The repertory is based on research
concerning the depletion of specific nutrients by stress. For
example, Vitamin C is a vital component in the synthesis of
epinephrine from the amino acid tyrosine. The adrenal medulla
produces Epinephrine in a response to a stressor as part of
the 'fight or flight' response. Epinephrine is critical in blood
pressure regulation, acting as part of an auxiliary electron
transport system for the last step of aldosterone synthesis.
Aldosterone is a hormone involved in regulating blood pressure, blood
pH and blood volume. Therefore exposure to stress (usually long term
or repeated) - depletes stores of Vitamin C - and if not replenished
in time, leads to a host of specific signs and symptoms - which have
been included in the repertory. The book is a repertory of signs and
symptoms of stress induced nutrient depletions - based on our present
knowledge of the biochemistry of the brain (and other organs), the
storage mechanisms, use rates, and absorption character of the
various nutrients. While it has the potential to grow and develop, it
is currently not intended as a repertory of all nutrient
deficiencies - most of which are indeed caused by modern farming
practices, poor assimilation, poor diets, preparation, storage, and a
host of other factors.

Again, I am truly sorry and apologize if my opinions or discussion
were offensive to you. I will not continue any input on this subject.

Donna
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Ellen Madono"
wrote:
loosen
discuss any
and you
and I am
head." No...
as the
are in a
starting
opposed
physiological
involved?
physical
pills.
elsewhere. I
from
ideal I
only for
know that
Hahnemann
asking.
minerals at a
any
books on
mega dose
magnesium.
doses.
individual
interested in
view
coke
method.
and
espenses
me

[Shannon Nelson]

Hi Ellen,
I've started about four replies, but between holiday trips and holiday
visitors, just can't seem to stay with a post long enough to finish!!
Now there's a brief lull--and we don't have to leave again until
tomorrow.
weighing in is probably to do with both lack of experience with it, and
also the holidays, not because of anything about "political
correctness".
mineral supplement simply because of uncertainties. Seems to me
somewhat along the lines of the remedies made from various
"waters"--what are they... um, Skookum chuk; Carlsbad; Aqua marina...
I can't remember the others. But my understanding is that certain
mineral springs have healing effects because of their mineral
content...?
potentized version of your mineral supplement would also; presumably
all of the plusses and minuses of low-versus-high potency (and versus
crude substance) would also apply, and it would (I think?) be acting
more as a remedy (useful only to the extent that the symptom pictures
of remedy and patient match), and less as a food. I don't *know* that
would be the case; I'm only speculating. I think it would be
interesting to try. My main thought is that if you do, it would be
good to take a full case beforehand (even if the person taking it isn't
a regular homeopathy patient of yours), so you--and they--can get a
full and accurate picture of just what its effect is.

A little more below:
I think part of the problem is that ol' email bugaboo, that if
you're talking to someone *in person*, you have all sorts of clues the
guide the conversation in smaller increments, and with benefit of far
more contextual cues, so not as much likelihood of overreacting. I
haven't read all of the thread, but I doubt Donna was trying to shut
you down...

Well, I'd better get to bed too...
Happy Holidays!!
Shannon

[Luise Kunkle]

Hi Donna,

Now I have to (well, I don't really *have to* I guess:-) - but anyway)
tell you just about what I told Ellen:

Why drop out???Even if it were true that Ellen objected to you
personally or your post specifically: why should you therefore drop
out? Many more people vey likely read the mails and although they do
not participate, it does not necessarily mean that they are not
interested. Their non-response may be e.g. for the same reason I
mentioned for myself in my mail, i. e. that they do not know enough
about the matter to chip in.

But the way I read Ellen's last post it was just an allergy-kind of
reaction - an allergy to the purists, of which you are certainly not
one.

It is such a shame that for reasons of personal "huff" many people
have in the past left the lists - exactly those people whose
contributions were (to some at least) the most enriching.

This is indeed a fascinating subject - and one I as an example know
very little about, I have never given it much thought nor do I have
knowledge. I learned a lot even from what little you wrote below.

I'll answer Ellen's mail after I have given the matter some more
thought. What I'll have to say is probably quite different from what
you think - it may even be contrary. If so - well I should like to
know about it. Diskussion lives by contrary opinions and this is why
we can learn so much from discussions.

Thinks

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

[Rosemary C. Hyde, Ph.D.]

You could also do a proving, which would provide even better homeopathic info, IMHO.
Rosemary
The medicine this sick world needs is love. Hatred must be replaced by love,
and fear by faith that love will prevail."
~Peace Pilgrim
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert & Shannon Nelson
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 1:13 AM
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Minutus] Re: potentizing supplements
Hi Ellen,
I've started about four replies, but between holiday trips and holiday visitors, just can't seem to stay with a post long enough to finish!! Now there's a brief lull--and we don't have to leave again until tomorrow.
Anyway, I wanted to say--I do think that the main reasons for so few weighing in is probably to do with both lack of experience with it, and also the holidays, not because of anything about "political correctness".
Personally I feel a little ambivalent about the idea of potentizing a mineral supplement simply because of uncertainties. Seems to me somewhat along the lines of the remedies made from various "waters"--what are they... um, Skookum chuk; Carlsbad; Aqua marina... I can't remember the others. But my understanding is that certain mineral springs have healing effects because of their mineral content...?
And, they each have a distinct prescribing picture. Presumably the potentized version of your mineral supplement would also; presumably all of the plusses and minuses of low-versus-high potency (and versus crude substance) would also apply, and it would (I think?) be acting more as a remedy (useful only to the extent that the symptom pictures of remedy and patient match), and less as a food. I don't *know* that would be the case; I'm only speculating. I think it would be interesting to try. My main thought is that if you do, it would be good to take a full case beforehand (even if the person taking it isn't a regular homeopathy patient of yours), so you--and they--can get a full and accurate picture of just what its effect is.

A little more below:
Dear Luise (and Donna),

Luise you have greatly improved my New Years mood. Yeah, I have to loosen up. I read these dogmatic purist arguments and wonder why even discuss any subject.
I think part of the problem is that ol' email bugaboo, that if you're talking to someone *in person*, you have all sorts of clues the guide the conversation in smaller increments, and with benefit of far more contextual cues, so not as much likelihood of overreacting. I haven't read all of the thread, but I doubt Donna was trying to shut you down...

Well, I'd better get to bed too...
Happy Holidays!!
Shannon

The subject can be just shut down by claiming I am pure and you are not. Any response that smells of that kind of argumentation and I am telling myself "Give me a bucket of sand. I have to bury my head." No... Relax. That is just a severe reaction to what the pure side sees as the absolute truth of any particular version of orthodoxy. Relax. We are in a new political era. Hopefully. At least a more open atmosphere is starting back again in many places.

I am wondering about the literature sources for balancing intake as opposed to opening up assimilation for cell salts. Makes total physiological sense. How would it occur? Are there negative feedback systems involved? Aren't those cell salts just potentized nutrient elements given in physical doses? Perhaps that's why they say take so many of x cell salt pills. Since potentizing can be done to anything, it should work elsewhere. I actually have a Japanese cell salt book recomending cell salts made from elements like zinc *not a traditional cell salt). The influence is British.

As Donna says, tailoring the mineral cocktail to the individual is ideal I wonder why she had the caveat that her repertory for minerals is only for stressed individuals. Isn't that the case for any rep? Since we know that certain minerals are being wholesale depleted by industrial farming, couldn't this cocktail fit the "epidemic disease" paradigm that Hahnemann gave us. I don't know the details of this, so I am really just asking. Luise, I suppose you would suggest giving one of the depleted minerals at a time. Maybe potentized if the material substance does not produce any noticeable reaction. Sherry Rogers (Tired or Toxic and many other books on hypersensitivity) has a protocal for magnesium where she gives a mega dose and looks for an effect in a problem that should be affected by magnesium. Then, she adjusts the amount if the problem improves after a few doses. She also give lab testing for specific deficiencies. Testing the individual so you can figure out the effect seems essential. I am very interested in ways of doing this.

Best,
Ellen Madono

Happy New Years,
Ellen Madono

[Irene de Villiers]

The Schuessler salts are potentized but only to 6X, and are very
effective and well researched.
However if the individual has any lack of a specific nutrient for any
reason - and most do - then that needs to be supplied in material doses.
When I first visited my cousin who first taught me homeopathy and was
brought up a homeopath from babyhood, I asked how come her family was
never sick. her answer:
I put one of the 12 cell salts on the dining room table each week,
and everyone takes one daIly. the next week I put another one
there..... cycling them every 12 weeks that way.

There are also medicinal uses of the cell salts, both for helping
pathology and for preventing it.
All well documented.

For example, I use some of them after treating cats with struvite
crystal blockage. It builds good resistance to recurrence.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

Supplements are not classic al homeopathy.
They are nutrients needed. (See the Organon)
Had the nutrients been all appropriately present in the first place,
you would not have seen illness:-)

My view:-)

Namaste,
Irene

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Ellen Madono]

Dear Irene,
It would seem that distinguishing between the material need and the need that can be satisfied with a potentized remedy. How would you think about that?
Blessed New Years to You.
Ellen Madono

[Luise Kunkle]

Hi Ellen,
Openness also means openness to the arguments of the purists. They do
have arguments for their views. No sense in our repeating the mistakes
of some of them by not being open ourselves:-)
I do not see where that would be opposition. From what little I know
it seems that the effect is considered to be due to a "stimulus"
(German Reiz) to the individual cells or perhaps to some higher level
instance that regulates the intake etc. of all cells. It is quite
logical to assume that this stimulus works in the sense of
normalizing the intake, not specifically in the sense of raising it.
I don't think that enough is known to answer this. Perhaps Irene knows
more.
They are given at least up to 12x. I don't know whether one can
still call that "physical doses". The original Schuessler Salts (I do
not know whether this holds true for all cell salts) are potentized by
trituaratiion up to the final potency used. This may or may not make
them different from the "homeopathic" remedies, which as a rule are
triturized only to 3x or 3C.
No. In the beginning it was indeed the theory that this would be
supplementing. This is no longer the theory. The reason fo taking them
so often is that the stimuli have to be repeated often at short
intervals in order to have any effect. My teacher in naturopathic
school once explained it: if someone rings your doorbell every 5
minutes you will proably at long last go to the door, even if you do
not feel like it:-)
I agree.

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========