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Jean
Homeopathy 4 Everyone - July 2008 fibonacci
-
Jean Doherty
- Posts: 1576
- Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 10:00 pm
-
Laura Coramai
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm
Re: Homeopathy 4 Everyone - July 2008 fibonacci
Dr. Rozencwajg and Minutus group:
I was just wanting to say that this work by Dr. Rozencwajg is fascinating/meticulous work, but I wonder if you or anyone else would be able to comment on why the 6th and final edition of The Organon, our founder's treatise & handbook was not referenced?
I myself am learning in detail on the theory of what Hahnemann himself called "his most perfect method" (LM's or Q Potency's) and finding thru use that the remedies (only, naturally, if correctly selected) are fast acting...but, that progress is steady, spread out, as well as, sped up as compared to the experience I have had with C scale remedies (not about aggravation to see if right remedy selection, but really getting at the peeling of our proverbial onion, ie - all the Miasmatic layers of the case down to closing the case with ones patient living as a latent Psora - like what Hahnemann talks about in Chronic Dxs...our best hope for health).
I know from my own experience as patient that being hit with high C potency's of ones Simillimum can only do so much....and than, it seems, that one of 12 scenarios can happen - as outlined in the very work of the man that is at the cutting edge of deciphering the 6th edition - and in cases where the improvement is occurring than with the use of C scale remedy one can not up the dose in increments that are fine tuned enough to the unique response of the case. This upping of the dose, according to Hahnemann, as outlined in Aph 280 in the sixth ed is specifically stated, in relation to the fifty-millesimal potency's/LM's.
Incidentally these 12 scenarios I refer to are a reference to Dr. Luc De Schepper, which is in chapter 12 of his Achieving and Maintaining the Simillimum. This is such essential reading that I would recommend all to have it as you will use it like one does their Reps and MM's. Eg of one thg I flip to continously is the Chart of Potency Selection for Chronic Cases: so easy to use and does, for those using C scale and sometimes LMs (seems to me alot of you guys out there), breaks down when to use what dose in relation to patient sensitivity. An aside: it is a myth that LMs are for sensitive patients only as one will see in Dr. Luc's text; LM's or C scale (dry or wet) are used for low to high sensitive patients and only when we learn and practice this will be truly emulating our master, Hahnemann...think: Paris Notebooks and how our Master started to practically exclusively use LMs, once he invented them.
Lastly to mention - fyi - the latest text by Dr. Luc, Advanced Guide for Professional Homeopaths (just getting to it now), gets into the nuances of posology/dosing for a case in systematic fashion using the remedies that are made into LMs at our pharmacies! This is in chapter entitled The Final Potency Selection (Chapter 14).
Grab these books & you won't regret it. Happy reading and let me know what you think on Dr. Luc's work (note- Hahnemann Revisited is what I spent hundreds of lecture hrs learning at my undergrad school here in Toronto,Canada and is truer to Master than what lecturers shared - still love em to pieces, though - not wanting to burn any bridges and all!).
Attached, by the way, is last August's Minutus discussion on LM's/Paris Notebooks*...lest we forget!
Oh yes - boy am I stuck on a round-about: Dr. Rozencwajg/others, what do you think of above/6th ed of Organon in relation to your work on dosing.
Peace,
Laura
* - The one thing that I feel should be pointed out with Aph 248 (6th ed), Point 2) is that Hahnemann is saying that one can dose daily, but that if one reads Dr. Luc one will see that he didn't necessarily do this - so beware re- aggravations (which was his point with switching to LMs: Aph 2 on the "highest ideal of cure" - rapid, gentle and permanent restoration of health. See Dr. Luc's Apendix A of Part 5: Hahnemann's Paris Casebooks (1835-1843) in Achieving and Maintaining the Simillimum - it is a beautiful chart entitled "Responses After the Test Dose". Here one sees that one establishes an individualized dosing schedule based on careful observation of patient and the picture of improvement, ie - striking or not striking, etc....
A discriminating irreverence is the creator and protector of human liberty.
Mark Twain
I was just wanting to say that this work by Dr. Rozencwajg is fascinating/meticulous work, but I wonder if you or anyone else would be able to comment on why the 6th and final edition of The Organon, our founder's treatise & handbook was not referenced?
I myself am learning in detail on the theory of what Hahnemann himself called "his most perfect method" (LM's or Q Potency's) and finding thru use that the remedies (only, naturally, if correctly selected) are fast acting...but, that progress is steady, spread out, as well as, sped up as compared to the experience I have had with C scale remedies (not about aggravation to see if right remedy selection, but really getting at the peeling of our proverbial onion, ie - all the Miasmatic layers of the case down to closing the case with ones patient living as a latent Psora - like what Hahnemann talks about in Chronic Dxs...our best hope for health).
I know from my own experience as patient that being hit with high C potency's of ones Simillimum can only do so much....and than, it seems, that one of 12 scenarios can happen - as outlined in the very work of the man that is at the cutting edge of deciphering the 6th edition - and in cases where the improvement is occurring than with the use of C scale remedy one can not up the dose in increments that are fine tuned enough to the unique response of the case. This upping of the dose, according to Hahnemann, as outlined in Aph 280 in the sixth ed is specifically stated, in relation to the fifty-millesimal potency's/LM's.
Incidentally these 12 scenarios I refer to are a reference to Dr. Luc De Schepper, which is in chapter 12 of his Achieving and Maintaining the Simillimum. This is such essential reading that I would recommend all to have it as you will use it like one does their Reps and MM's. Eg of one thg I flip to continously is the Chart of Potency Selection for Chronic Cases: so easy to use and does, for those using C scale and sometimes LMs (seems to me alot of you guys out there), breaks down when to use what dose in relation to patient sensitivity. An aside: it is a myth that LMs are for sensitive patients only as one will see in Dr. Luc's text; LM's or C scale (dry or wet) are used for low to high sensitive patients and only when we learn and practice this will be truly emulating our master, Hahnemann...think: Paris Notebooks and how our Master started to practically exclusively use LMs, once he invented them.
Lastly to mention - fyi - the latest text by Dr. Luc, Advanced Guide for Professional Homeopaths (just getting to it now), gets into the nuances of posology/dosing for a case in systematic fashion using the remedies that are made into LMs at our pharmacies! This is in chapter entitled The Final Potency Selection (Chapter 14).
Grab these books & you won't regret it. Happy reading and let me know what you think on Dr. Luc's work (note- Hahnemann Revisited is what I spent hundreds of lecture hrs learning at my undergrad school here in Toronto,Canada and is truer to Master than what lecturers shared - still love em to pieces, though - not wanting to burn any bridges and all!).
Attached, by the way, is last August's Minutus discussion on LM's/Paris Notebooks*...lest we forget!
Oh yes - boy am I stuck on a round-about: Dr. Rozencwajg/others, what do you think of above/6th ed of Organon in relation to your work on dosing.
Peace,
Laura
* - The one thing that I feel should be pointed out with Aph 248 (6th ed), Point 2) is that Hahnemann is saying that one can dose daily, but that if one reads Dr. Luc one will see that he didn't necessarily do this - so beware re- aggravations (which was his point with switching to LMs: Aph 2 on the "highest ideal of cure" - rapid, gentle and permanent restoration of health. See Dr. Luc's Apendix A of Part 5: Hahnemann's Paris Casebooks (1835-1843) in Achieving and Maintaining the Simillimum - it is a beautiful chart entitled "Responses After the Test Dose". Here one sees that one establishes an individualized dosing schedule based on careful observation of patient and the picture of improvement, ie - striking or not striking, etc....
A discriminating irreverence is the creator and protector of human liberty.
Mark Twain
-
Irene de Villiers
- Posts: 3237
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:00 pm
Re: Homeopathy 4 Everyone - July 2008 fibonacci
It was.
The variable use of many types of potency with zero science or
natural laws behind it, is well explained at the start of the work!
It was a pracftical problem to Hahnemann and has been to us ever since.
As we know, Hahnemann was meticulous in his work, but he also
realized that one must constantly strive for improvement. Hence he
kept doing just that, all his life, and it is the reason we have 6
Organons in the first place:-) Had he lived longer, he would have
continued making improvements, but since he finally died (at a
significant age for those times) it is now up to us to make
improvements.
On the contrary - The one thing Hahnemann seems to have been least
satisfied about, is potency. Perhaps he realized each version he used
had no natural law behind it - unlike the Law of Similars behind the
remedy selection principles. Nothing in his approach changed more
often over his lifetime and in his work with homeopathy, than potency
and how to make them and choose them for a case - and I have no
doubt that had he lived to compete with Methuselah, he's have found a
yet "more perfect and latest potency" than the LM one.
The fact that he was NOT satisfied with the 6th edition Organon LM
approach, is proved by his notes in his Paris case books, where he
did NOT use LM potency exclusively, despite what he wrote in the 6th
Organon. On the contrary - he continued to experiment with potency
issues up to his death. Had he been happy with it, he'd have moved on
to sopkmething else and stuck with LMs for his cases. He did not.
It is fair to say then that Hahnemann did not find the perfect answer
to potency, and nor did anyone else so far.
Consequemtly we struggle with many difficult cases, to get cure - and
we call some cases incurable.
We then have two options:
Consider such cases incurable and stop worrying about it;
OR
do what Hahnemann would have done, and keep striving for something
better (now that he is no longer here to do it for us):
Keep up the good work, and try to find a better approach to potency -
preferably one that DOES follow natural laws as does the Law of
Similars.
I am impressed with the Fibonacci series in this regard:
It DOES follow a Law of Nature, it's not guesswork;
It DOES also make logical sense as one potency builds on each
previous one instead of starting over.
We never had that advantage before:-)
It would not surprise me if this new approach revolutionizes
homeopathy, increasing dramatically the ease of potency selection and
the rate of difficult case success - once people stop being sceptical
and look at it carefully:-)
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
The variable use of many types of potency with zero science or
natural laws behind it, is well explained at the start of the work!
It was a pracftical problem to Hahnemann and has been to us ever since.
As we know, Hahnemann was meticulous in his work, but he also
realized that one must constantly strive for improvement. Hence he
kept doing just that, all his life, and it is the reason we have 6
Organons in the first place:-) Had he lived longer, he would have
continued making improvements, but since he finally died (at a
significant age for those times) it is now up to us to make
improvements.
On the contrary - The one thing Hahnemann seems to have been least
satisfied about, is potency. Perhaps he realized each version he used
had no natural law behind it - unlike the Law of Similars behind the
remedy selection principles. Nothing in his approach changed more
often over his lifetime and in his work with homeopathy, than potency
and how to make them and choose them for a case - and I have no
doubt that had he lived to compete with Methuselah, he's have found a
yet "more perfect and latest potency" than the LM one.
The fact that he was NOT satisfied with the 6th edition Organon LM
approach, is proved by his notes in his Paris case books, where he
did NOT use LM potency exclusively, despite what he wrote in the 6th
Organon. On the contrary - he continued to experiment with potency
issues up to his death. Had he been happy with it, he'd have moved on
to sopkmething else and stuck with LMs for his cases. He did not.
It is fair to say then that Hahnemann did not find the perfect answer
to potency, and nor did anyone else so far.
Consequemtly we struggle with many difficult cases, to get cure - and
we call some cases incurable.
We then have two options:
Consider such cases incurable and stop worrying about it;
OR
do what Hahnemann would have done, and keep striving for something
better (now that he is no longer here to do it for us):
Keep up the good work, and try to find a better approach to potency -
preferably one that DOES follow natural laws as does the Law of
Similars.
I am impressed with the Fibonacci series in this regard:
It DOES follow a Law of Nature, it's not guesswork;
It DOES also make logical sense as one potency builds on each
previous one instead of starting over.
We never had that advantage before:-)
It would not surprise me if this new approach revolutionizes
homeopathy, increasing dramatically the ease of potency selection and
the rate of difficult case success - once people stop being sceptical
and look at it carefully:-)
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
-
Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
- Posts: 2279
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Homeopathy 4 Everyone - July 2008 fibonacci
First, tongue-in-cheek answer: I though everybody read the Organon, so no need to reference it and if I had to put a list of all the books, articles, websites, etc, I had to research for that work, it would add another 20 pages to the work......
But I thought it was pretty clear as to WHY: I cannot see any logic in the selection of potencies except that based on the impression the therapist has about the level of energy the patient needs, and as I wrote, that "impression" is very subjective and very much depends on the therapist's state of health at the moment of prescription.
Then the most important part is, as I think I clearly wrote, the fact that we do not know what potency we really give past the 30C prepared by hand: the number of succussion is another issue which I plan to address later, but the Korsakovian potencies ARE different from the centesimal Hahnemanian, then the fluxion potencies are anything you might imagine, see Julian Winston's more detailed description.
With a Fibonacci series, I know what I give exactly, I know the remedies are prepared exactly in a Hahnemanian way, with no doubt whatsoever about it, I know (now with even more cases) that the progression is really exponential in activity, I know how to control the action of each dose through water potencies like the LM techniques (more cases, yes it works), so I do not have unexpected bad surprises (so far) and I remove a parameter from the equation, allowing me to concentrate only on the case evolution and on the choice of the remedy.
But that is only me and I am eager to hear the practical experience my colleagues will have with that technique. Does not mean the others do not work, we know they do..........but how many times do we read "I gave this potency, did not work, so before changing remedies I tried yet another one, it cured the case............" that is guesswork and I cannot practice that way, too much cartesianism in my upbringing
)
Makes sense????
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".
Visit http://drjoesnaturalmedicine.blogspot.com for some articles and comments.
But I thought it was pretty clear as to WHY: I cannot see any logic in the selection of potencies except that based on the impression the therapist has about the level of energy the patient needs, and as I wrote, that "impression" is very subjective and very much depends on the therapist's state of health at the moment of prescription.
Then the most important part is, as I think I clearly wrote, the fact that we do not know what potency we really give past the 30C prepared by hand: the number of succussion is another issue which I plan to address later, but the Korsakovian potencies ARE different from the centesimal Hahnemanian, then the fluxion potencies are anything you might imagine, see Julian Winston's more detailed description.
With a Fibonacci series, I know what I give exactly, I know the remedies are prepared exactly in a Hahnemanian way, with no doubt whatsoever about it, I know (now with even more cases) that the progression is really exponential in activity, I know how to control the action of each dose through water potencies like the LM techniques (more cases, yes it works), so I do not have unexpected bad surprises (so far) and I remove a parameter from the equation, allowing me to concentrate only on the case evolution and on the choice of the remedy.
But that is only me and I am eager to hear the practical experience my colleagues will have with that technique. Does not mean the others do not work, we know they do..........but how many times do we read "I gave this potency, did not work, so before changing remedies I tried yet another one, it cured the case............" that is guesswork and I cannot practice that way, too much cartesianism in my upbringing
)Makes sense????
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".
Visit http://drjoesnaturalmedicine.blogspot.com for some articles and comments.
-
Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Homeopathy 4 Everyone - July 2008 fibonacci
Dr. Roz,
I've finally read your book on Fibonacci series remedies--and it is a
wonderful and compelling write-up! A few questions, if you don't mind?
In the beautiful pictures you've used to illustrate Fibonacci series, I
understand (I think) that the series shows up in the number of "parts"
(petals, etc.) for each turn around the flower / shell, etc., and I
understand the "Golden Ratio." But the music pieces--how do they
relate? The stock market charts too I don't understand... Are those
too much to explain, to someone who has to ask the question?
"Speed of action. - J.S. Sepia 5C to 55C, 6 days to cure"
?? How did you decide to use each potency for only a single day--how
do you decide when to go up in potency, and why did that one go *so*
quickly?
Lastly, can you tell anything about how much the potencies cost, and
which remedies they have? I checked their website, and there's no
mention of them yet.
This is really a wonderful idea, and presentation!! I look forward to
hearing (and trying) more!
Shannon
I've finally read your book on Fibonacci series remedies--and it is a
wonderful and compelling write-up! A few questions, if you don't mind?
In the beautiful pictures you've used to illustrate Fibonacci series, I
understand (I think) that the series shows up in the number of "parts"
(petals, etc.) for each turn around the flower / shell, etc., and I
understand the "Golden Ratio." But the music pieces--how do they
relate? The stock market charts too I don't understand... Are those
too much to explain, to someone who has to ask the question?
"Speed of action. - J.S. Sepia 5C to 55C, 6 days to cure"
?? How did you decide to use each potency for only a single day--how
do you decide when to go up in potency, and why did that one go *so*
quickly?
Lastly, can you tell anything about how much the potencies cost, and
which remedies they have? I checked their website, and there's no
mention of them yet.
This is really a wonderful idea, and presentation!! I look forward to
hearing (and trying) more!
Shannon
-
Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
- Posts: 2279
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Homeopathy 4 Everyone - July 2008 fibonacci
Thanks.
The music pieces were found on a Fibonacci-dedicated website, apparently there is a progression of octaves or something else in music (I am a total ignoramus in that field) that uses the F series, so I thought I reproduce it for the sake of completeness.
As for the stock market, there is a huge amounts of books and articles explaining how the markets fluctuate according to the F series and how you can use it........didn't prevent the crash but that seems to work only when there are no hidden faults and traps, then of course, as we just witnessed, the whole mechanism crashes.
Speed of action: this was one of the patients described in a previous paragraph who decided on her own to take one powder every day in succession........and got good results, alleviating my fear of terrible aggravations; since then, 3 patients have followed that pattern because of the very strong symptoms, 2 with good results, one with the first proving of the remedy in that system, now resolved.
The timing of dosing is not different from what we generally do: 1 dose, observe, no change or changes are stopping, either repeat if you use the liquid dose or move to the next powder if you use the "semi-liquid" dose.
The Simillimum pharmacy charges NZ$1.00 per potency + shipping, meaning that if you order up to 55C, you will be charged NZ$55 for a NEW remedy. Those that have already been prepared are cheaper, as the medicating potencies are kept in stock.
They are not listed on their website because their number keeps increasing as I keep prescribing that way.....latest 2 additions are Ginkgo and Colchicum........just ask them what you need.
Does that help?
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".
Visit http://drjoesnaturalmedicine.blogspot.com for some articles and comments.
The music pieces were found on a Fibonacci-dedicated website, apparently there is a progression of octaves or something else in music (I am a total ignoramus in that field) that uses the F series, so I thought I reproduce it for the sake of completeness.
As for the stock market, there is a huge amounts of books and articles explaining how the markets fluctuate according to the F series and how you can use it........didn't prevent the crash but that seems to work only when there are no hidden faults and traps, then of course, as we just witnessed, the whole mechanism crashes.
Speed of action: this was one of the patients described in a previous paragraph who decided on her own to take one powder every day in succession........and got good results, alleviating my fear of terrible aggravations; since then, 3 patients have followed that pattern because of the very strong symptoms, 2 with good results, one with the first proving of the remedy in that system, now resolved.
The timing of dosing is not different from what we generally do: 1 dose, observe, no change or changes are stopping, either repeat if you use the liquid dose or move to the next powder if you use the "semi-liquid" dose.
The Simillimum pharmacy charges NZ$1.00 per potency + shipping, meaning that if you order up to 55C, you will be charged NZ$55 for a NEW remedy. Those that have already been prepared are cheaper, as the medicating potencies are kept in stock.
They are not listed on their website because their number keeps increasing as I keep prescribing that way.....latest 2 additions are Ginkgo and Colchicum........just ask them what you need.
Does that help?
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".
Visit http://drjoesnaturalmedicine.blogspot.com for some articles and comments.
-
Bob Needham
- Posts: 354
- Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Homeopathy 4 Everyone - July 2008 fibonacci
Right on - don't try to get cute with Fibonacci in the stock market. Some years ago in another life I was a broker and we played around with Fibonacci numbers - an interesting math exercise BUT the market is not a pure existence, too many unpredictable variables and emotional expression involved. Would work for a bit then let you down.
bob
Thanks.
The music pieces were found on a Fibonacci-dedicated website, apparently there is a progression of octaves or something else in music (I am a total ignoramus in that field) that uses the F series, so I thought I reproduce it for the sake of completeness.
As for the stock market, there is a huge amounts of books and articles explaining how the markets fluctuate according to the F series and how you can use it........didn't prevent the crash but that seems to work only when there are no hidden faults and traps, then of course, as we just witnessed, the whole mechanism crashes.
Speed of action: this was one of the patients described in a previous paragraph who decided on her own to take one powder every day in succession........and got good results, alleviating my fear of terrible aggravations; since then, 3 patients have followed that pattern because of the very strong symptoms, 2 with good results, one with the first proving of the remedy in that system, now resolved.
The timing of dosing is not different from what we generally do: 1 dose, observe, no change or changes are stopping, either repeat if you use the liquid dose or move to the next powder if you use the "semi-liquid" dose.
The Simillimum pharmacy charges NZ$1.00 per potency + shipping, meaning that if you order up to 55C, you will be charged NZ$55 for a NEW remedy. Those that have already been prepared are cheaper, as the medicating potencies are kept in stock.
They are not listed on their website because their number keeps increasing as I keep prescribing that way.....latest 2 additions are Ginkgo and Colchicum........just ask them what you need.
Does that help?
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".
Visit http://drjoesnaturalmedicine.blogspot.com for some articles and comments.
bob
Thanks.
The music pieces were found on a Fibonacci-dedicated website, apparently there is a progression of octaves or something else in music (I am a total ignoramus in that field) that uses the F series, so I thought I reproduce it for the sake of completeness.
As for the stock market, there is a huge amounts of books and articles explaining how the markets fluctuate according to the F series and how you can use it........didn't prevent the crash but that seems to work only when there are no hidden faults and traps, then of course, as we just witnessed, the whole mechanism crashes.
Speed of action: this was one of the patients described in a previous paragraph who decided on her own to take one powder every day in succession........and got good results, alleviating my fear of terrible aggravations; since then, 3 patients have followed that pattern because of the very strong symptoms, 2 with good results, one with the first proving of the remedy in that system, now resolved.
The timing of dosing is not different from what we generally do: 1 dose, observe, no change or changes are stopping, either repeat if you use the liquid dose or move to the next powder if you use the "semi-liquid" dose.
The Simillimum pharmacy charges NZ$1.00 per potency + shipping, meaning that if you order up to 55C, you will be charged NZ$55 for a NEW remedy. Those that have already been prepared are cheaper, as the medicating potencies are kept in stock.
They are not listed on their website because their number keeps increasing as I keep prescribing that way.....latest 2 additions are Ginkgo and Colchicum........just ask them what you need.
Does that help?
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".
Visit http://drjoesnaturalmedicine.blogspot.com for some articles and comments.