IE Crystals

[Ardavan Shahrdar]

Hi,

Take a look at these articles:

http://www.homeopathic.com/research/ice.htm
http://www.homeopathic.com/research/ice2.htm
http://www.homeopathic.com/research/thermodynamics.htm

Best,

Ardavan Shahrdar, MD

Visit www.minutus.com My website on Classical and
Hahnemannian homoeopathy.
=====
Dr Ardavan Shahrdar
www.minutus.com

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[Feras Hakkak]

Dear Minutus members,

I'm a mechanical engineering student from Tehran, Iran. I have been studying homoeopathy for 3 years but my studies have been very few and scattered.

Have any one of you heard of IE crystals? These water crystals do not melt at room temperature! The water from which these ice crystals are made is homoeopathic water. American Technologies Group has used IE crystals and has made different products for mechanical and chemical engineering use. I would like to conduct a research on these crystals. Do you know any sources?

Yours truly,

Feras Hakkak
---------------------------------
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information inYahoo! News.

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[freelynn]

Hello Feras,

I offer some past discussions from another study group regarding IE crystals.

hope it is helpful
Lynn Cremona
===========

Garth Jones wrote:
I'm most interested in understanding how the ultra high dilutions
may change the structure of water. From my understanding, the general
mechanism for making homeopathic solutions is to start with a relatively
high concentration and continue to dilute, with vigorous shaking until
there is none of the original substance left (statistically speaking).

Well, aren't we ALL!
There are several interesting problems involved in homeopathy. The big one
is the mechanism of action of the SIMILAR since the remedy need not be
delivered in an ultrahigh dilution.
Hahnemann practiced (at the beginning) with tinctures as did many other
homeopaths.
The separate question is the one of the ultra high dilution. You might show
that it has action, but we still don't understand the similia principle...
The OTHER little quirk is that the idea of "vigorous shaking" is sort of a
"homeopathic legend." Everyone believes it, but some of the most effective
remedies made (historically) were made by a fluxion process where the
starting potency was just mixed with water and then dumped (intermittent
fluxion) or left to dilute over a period of hours or days (continuous
fluxion). The Skinner potencies that were hailed by Kent in 1903, were
manufactured on the same machine by B&T until about 1990. Almost ALL high
potencies in the USA were made on this machine since most of the pharmacies
bought their high potencies (above a 20 or 200) from B&T. The Skinner
machine was intermittent fluxion.
Then the Fincke and Swan remedies (continuous fluxion) were hailed at the
turn of the century, and those of us who still have them (The highest I
have is a MMM Lachesis of Fincke) find that they still work just fine thank
you!
So there are several other questions in the mix that should be looked into
as well.
JW
-----------------------------------------------------------
There was a brief mention on this subject in the NCH newsletter.
A physicist (with no knowledge of homeopathy till later) working on
pollution control has discovered the presence of ice crystals that form in
very dilute ionic solutions. These crystals are persistent, unique in
structure to each type of ion, self replicating (if I remember properly),
affect the UV & dielectric properties of the water and can be concentrated
to as high as 3% by volume. Pictures of them are included in the
articles. This may be a physical explanation for homeopathy. The articles
were published in Modern Physics Letters B, Vol 10, No. 19 (1996). Not
light reading but enlightening.
One disturbing thing is that they supposedly have patented the dilution &
succussion process. I don't know what if any, affect that will have.
Roger
----------------------------------
I had my local town librarian get the original articles from Brandeis. They
were written by Dr. ShuiYin Lo....very exciting papers, and quite
convincing to me (as a past researcher and chemical engineer), since plain
old physical chemistry is all that's required to understand that this
indeed could be the explanation for how dilution/succussion can "breed"
active so called 'Ie' crystal structures that are unique to a particular
remedy "seed" molecule. Dr. Lo found that (1) ONLY dilute solutions showed
this effect and (2) that selfreplication could be achieved by simple
shaking of the solution.

I wrote to him suggesting that if he were to consider a first order
reaction/catalysis mechanism to be occurring at the surface of the
containing glass vessel, you can also derive a 2/3 power relationship
between 'potency' and vessel surface: volume ratio. This had been suggested
to me last year in discussing some apparently anomalous results David
Little had seen in his dilution experiments with different size bottles

This may be a physical explanation for homeopathy. The articles were
published in Modern Physics Letters B, Vol 10, No. 19 (1996). Not light
reading but enlightening.

I entirely agree.

One disturbing thing is that they supposedly have patented the dilution &
succussion process. I don't know what if any, affect that will have.

I somewhat doubt this, since a similar mechanism may account for why "no
two snowflakes are alike". How can one patent a snowflake? BTW, I use the
snowflake analogy in explaining how dilution/succussion works.
Brian Connelly
-----------

I may have introduced myself to this list before, but I'll do it again for
this posting. My name is Steve Bittenson. I've been studying homeopathy
for about 6 months now, and reading postings here is helping me to
understand some of the issues, points of debate, mindsets, individual
approaches, and dynamics among homeopaths. Thank you. I've also been
involved with other "alternative" healing metaphors for many years,
principally applied Kinesiology (back as far as 1977). By day I'm a
chemical physicist (or physical chemist) and an R&D manager (Ph.D., and I
don't call myself "Dr."). I've worked in medical instrumentation, laser,
microelectronic, and environmental technology since leaving the academic
realm in 1983.
Particular thanks to Lois Hoffer for inspiring me to check out the ShuiYin
Lo references.
Following is my interpretation of these articles, as I see them relating to
homeopathy. I hope it's useful to other members of this list, and that it
may start a few interesting threads of discussion. I have not corresponded
with Lo or seen any follow up publications. Lo does not use any
homeopathic terminology in these articles. I'm actually tempted to do some
verification and extrapolation of Lo's work myself.
If you'd like a more detailed analysis/criticism than what I've included
here, you can email me privately at hbittenson@aol.com with "SEND ICE
DISCUSSION" as the title. I'll probably finish it in a few days. I also
get onto my scientific soapbox in that email message, so be warned.

REFERENCES:
1. Anomalous State of Ice
2. Physical Properties of Water with IE Structures
ShuiYin Lo, et.al., Modern Physics Letters B, Vol.10, No. 19 (1996)
909919,and 921930.
*Quick Summary*

Lo proposes a theoretical framework to explain some unique physical
properties he measures of very dilute water solutions of common chemical
compounds. These solutions are prepared in a manner similar to potentized
remedies. Lo's principal claim is that at least some substances dissolved
in water can lead to the formation of tiny ice like crystals which then can
exist and grow INDEPENDENTLY of the original substance that induced their
formation. This theory predicts that in successively diluted/shaken
(succussed?) solutions there is then a very physical presence which is due
to, but does not require any concentration of, the original solute. He
estimates that these crystals incorporate up to a few per cent of the water
in a solution.
Lo uses an assortment of standard modern analytical chemistry techniques to
support his conclusions, including pictures of these micro-meter scale
structures taken using an electron microscope. Lo chose three common
chemicals for this work: sodium chloride (Natrum Mur), nitric acid
(Nitricum Acidum), and sodium hydroxide. All three compounds are very
soluble and form ions (fundamental charged units) in aqueous solution. To
a chemist, they are nicely representative of salt, strong acid, and strong
base, respectively. The maximum dilution used in the study was ~13X.
If you'd like a more detailed analysis/criticism than what I've included
here, you can email me privately at hbittenson@aol.com with "SEND ICE
DISCUSSION"
*End Quick Summary*
There are some interesting avenues of thought one can pursue if Lo's work
holds up to independent repetition/verification, but first I'll relate a
cautionary anecdote (physicist humor).

****
The theoretician is walking down the hall when the experimentalist runs up
to him, very excited, and says: "I DID IT, I finally DID IT!! I just got
data in the lab showing that 'A' is greater than 'B'!!!"
The theoretician is quiet for a while, then begins thoughtfully: "A is
greater than B? A is greater than B." Then with great certainty and
burning gaze: "YES, YES , I can prove that! I can PROVE that A is greater
than B!!"

"OH!," says the experimentalist, "Did I say A is greater than B? It must
be all this excitement. I'm sorry, I meant to say that B is greater than A!"
The theoretician ponders this for only a moment, then says "AHA!! Even
easier"
------------------------

Following are some of the implications I see for homeopathy if Lo's
findings are corroborated and extended by other researchers. Now it's my
turn to venture to the edge:

1. If Lo's crystal theory is correct, and if potentized remedies
really work through the presence of these crystals, then beyond ~12C
dilution, succussion is vastly more important than dilution for potency,
since succussion can only bring the crystals up to a limiting
concentration, and this limit will be the same for any dilution. This
could influence approaches to dosing or at least help us understand
differences.

2 Lo predicts and demonstrates qualitatively that some chemical
additives in part per million concentrations can enhance the concentrations
of crystals in the potentized solution. If proven, this might yield VERY
potent "remedies", or accidental enhancements due to certain low level
impurities.

3. If there really are visible crystals with measurable properties
related to a "parent" reagent in homeopathic remedies, then it's
conceivable that homeopathy will be seen as a real chemical treatment by
regulatory agencies such as the FDA, leading to closer scrutiny and/or or
greater co-opting by the allopathic community.

4. Lo's model suggests to me that potentization would be more
effective at low temperature near water freezing temperature. Are there
any comments you experienced folks have on potency versus (preparation)
temperature?

5. Even with this model, the question is still quite open of what
happens to the crystals when dry pellets are prepared from solutions, then
dissolved in the mouth. Is there loss of structure? Do the crystals get
more concentrated?. Does this provide evidence that liquid and dry
potencies cannot be directly compared?

6. Lo's data shows a periodicity in some (spectroscopic) properties of
his solutions vs dilution (Alternating high vs low absorption of
ultraviolet light with successive dilutions). If this effect is related
to potency, then successive X, C, LM dilutions may or may not increase
potency. This also tends to support the idea that these different scales
require different approaches to dosing.
With best regards,
Steve Bittenson

--------------------------------
It was my original commentary on Dr. Lo's papers that sparked Lois Hoffer's
interest. I started my career as a researcher/chem engineer, ( viz. a
coauthored paper on the infrared spectra of anhydrides and peroxides (early
'60's) in Zeitschrift fur Elektrochemie).. I concur with your observations,
with some comments below:
On Sun, 4 May 1997 16:26:22 0400 (EDT)

HBittenson@aol.com wrote:
1. If Lo's crystal theory is correct, and if potentized remedies really
work through the presence of these crystals, then beyond ~12C dilution,
succussion is vastly more important than dilution for potency, since
succussion can only bring the crystals up to a limiting concentration, and
this limit will be the same for any dilution. This could influence
approaches to dosing or at east help us understand differences.

If one considers the (active) glass surface in autocatalysis and assumes a
spherical container, then a limiting concentration is feasible perhaps
related to the 2/3 power of the surface/volume ratio.

2 Lo predicts and demonstrates qualitatively that some chemical additives
in part per million concentrations can enhance the concentrations of
crystals in the potentized solution. If proven, this might yield VERY
potent "remedies", or accidental enhancements due to certain low level
impurities.

3. If there really are visible crystals with measurable properties related
to a "parent" reagent in homeopathic remedies, then it's conceivable that
homeopathy will be seen as a real chemical treatment by regulatory agencies
such as the FDA, leading to closer scrutiny and/or or greater co-opting by
the allopathic community.

This thought occurred to me too. I find it scary, because I want to be able
to use Homeopathy in a psychotherapeutic practice and don't want to have
this precluded by the allopathic guilds!

5. Even with this model, the question is still quite open of what happens
to the crystals when dry pellets are prepared from solutions, then
dissolved in the mouth. Is there loss of structure? Do the crystals get
more concentrated? Does this provide evidence that liquid and dry potencies
cannot be directly compared?

My guess is that the sugar OH groups may stabilize the 'IE' structures on
the surface of the pillules.

I have no comment on your other (good) points now, but I speculate that the
mass transfer properties of 'Ie' crystals could facilitate crossing the
'blood brain' barrier and thereby account for the importance of
Hom. 'Mentals'...thus open up a vast new field of neurochemistry!
Brian Connelly
-------------------------------
From the earlier exchange:

Bittenson: 1. If Lo's crystal theory is correct, .... then beyond ~12C
dilution, succussion is vastly more important than dilution for potency,
since succussion can only bring the crystals up to a limiting
concentration, and this limit will be the same for any dilution.......
Connelly: If one considers the (active) glass surface in autocatalysis and
assumes a spherical container, then a limiting concentration is feasible
perhaps
related to the 2/3 power of the surface:volume ratio.>
Interesting. In this case, bottle size and kinetics of crystal
formation/destruction e.g. in the dropper might dominate
potency!! Catalysis and related adhesion arguments would well support the
practice of emptying a bottle of potentized remedy and adding fresh water
for the next dilution, but its quantitative significance becomes problematic.

Bittenson: 3. If there really are visible crystals with measurable
properties related to a "parent" reagent in homeopathic remedies, then it's
conceivable that homeopathy will be seen as a real chemical treatment by
regulatory agencies such as the FDA, leading to closer scrutiny and/or or
greater coopting by the allopathic community.
Connelly: This thought occurred to me too. I find it scary, because I want
to be
able to use Hom. in a psychotherapeutic practice (my new career path)
and don't want to have this precluded by the allopathic guilds!>
Yes indeed scary. Do we wish for a scientific basis to aid broad
acceptance of homeopathy, then fear that we might have it?
Bittenson: 5. Even with this model, the question is still quite open of
what happens to the crystals when dry pellets are prepared from solutions,
then dissolved in the mouth. Is there loss of structure? Do the crystals
get more concentrated? (Holy Kurt Vonnegut, Batman!!). Does this provide
evidence that liquid and dry potencies cannot be directly compared?
Connelly: My guess is that the sugar OH groups may stabilize the 'Ie'
structures on the surface of the pillules.>
Agreed. I suspect Lo had that in mind when looking at dielectric materials
/ dipoles in solution

So you would expect rapid transport of these 1 micron scale structures?
Pumping ions or dipoles, or perhaps a "growing through" in some manner?
Note for others: 'Ie' is Lo's designation for electric fieldinduced ice
structures
Brian, have you seen any followup work? Or what exactly Lo is trying to
patent? I was involved a few years ago with a patent situation based on
having acquired an understanding of how dilute gas mixtures already on the
market behaved in excimer lasers. It felt similarly awkward: All the
"invention" really did was propose an explanation why a certain
everpresent, difficulttoremove lowlevel impurity (oxygen) shouldn't be
removed, but some folks sought patent protection for this impurity as an
additive, to gain a position of control in the specialty gas supply
industry. Interesting conflicts arose, including battles for ownership of
the potential rights. I'm not in that industry presently, but last I
heard, it hasn't had much impact on anyone.
If Lo has some new technological twist based on his ideas and work, he
deserves the intellectual property protection of a patent, but I doubt he
could gain "ownership" over homeopathic remedies or therapies.
Steve Bittenson
---------------

Following is my interpretation of these articles, as I see them relating to
homeopathy. I hope it's useful to other members of this list, and that it
may start a few interesting threads of discussion. I have not corresponded
with Lo or seen any follow up publications. Lo does not use any homeopathic
terminology in these articles. I'm actually tempted to do some verification
and extrapolation of Lo's work myself.

Well, Benveniste didn't use any homeopathic terminology either, and they
nailed his ass to the wall THEY beinging the "establishment" that wants
nothing to do with homeopathy or anything that could suggest that it might
have a mechanism.
When Benveniste did his IgE experiments in 1988, there was a show on BBC
with a bunch of folks going at each other about it. The best quote was from
DR. Jonathan Miller who had done the BBC series "the body in question" (and
was originally the "third" of the group with Peter Cook and Dudley Moore).
He referred to homeopathy as "blasphemy" and said that he wasn't even
interested in looking at any experiments because if they were repeatable,
"it would bring into question the entire nature of the physical universe as
we now know it."
Tricky stuff. I hope Lo keeps his eyes out for the quack busters and
charges of fraud.
JW
-------------------------------------
1) Is there anyone out there lurking (there's HUGE amounts of people
on this list but only a small subset very post!) who have a background in
chemistry, pharmacy, physics or anything related who might be interested in
talking to Lo, doing followup experiments, or who have any ideas to
contribute? Step right up!
2) Is there anyone out there who knows the Director of the NIH's
office of AM, Wayne Jonas, (who's a homeopath himself, I'm told), who can
get in touch and find out if he's aware of this work, and if the Office of
Alternative Medicine would be interested in funding Lo to do something
specific in the direction of homeopathy?
3) Steve Bittenson said:
"6. Lo's data shows a periodicity in some (spectroscopic) properties of
his solutions vs dilution (Alternating high vs low absorption of
ultraviolet light with successive dilutions). If this effect is related
to potency, then successive X, C, LM dilutions may or may not increase
potency. This also tends to support the idea that these different scales
require different approaches to dosing."
Did you mean that EVERY OTHER potency showed different UV light
absorptions? This is interesting, because there IS a preferential use of
certain dilutions/potencies:
I know that mostly homeopaths use either multiples of 3 or 6 up to 30C (6c
12c 15c 30c...) and then decimals after that... In my BIH texts I've got a
graph that shows that these former multiples correspond more or less to
peaks of therapeutic activity, as followed from research by "Jones and
Jenkins, RLHH 1983", a study on wheat and yeast growth when given Arnica
Montana. Anyone understand this reference? Have the original? Can give us
an abstract? and last but not least at ALL:
4) All you practicing homeopaths out there...got anything to
contribute, datawise? Seen any interesting/anomalous trends? Do have see
better results with certain potencies? Has ANYONE used/tried "unusual"
potencies like 11C or 13C or 17C?? Anyone ever noticed that certain
remedies do better at certain potencies? (Maybe the crystals characteristic
of certain remedies are easier or harder to "propagate" by succussion...)
Anyone ever noticed that it took MORE or fewer succussions to create an
effective remedy in water? I think it's "known" that they don't last long
in water, but only with the addition of alcohol are aqueous remedies
"stable" for long times. Have I got that right? Can you chemical
physicist/physical chemists see why alcohol would stabilize something like
this? Does it fit? I can't see myself how it works when on the dry pellet,
but I'm no chemist, either. Good thing Hahnemann was, eh? .

If these are naive or "stupid" sounding questions, please don't flame, but
give data! Michel, for instance: it's fine to tell us that this stuff was
all known a long time ago but WHAT did they know?! Got any original texts,
references, etc. where the scientists among us could look up and find out?
Don't forget that great strides in understanding are not achieved by
someone who invented it all from scratch, but by someone who finally put
all the pieces that everyone ELSE had worked out long ago, all together
into one coherent whole. So, we're looking to get those pieces out of the
woodwork, and get them to those who might be able to put 2 and 2
together. And the MOST progress is had when people from different fields
come together, share information and perspectives, so that the famous
"trunk of an elephant" and "legs of an elephant" can be finally understand
as a whole elephant...
BYE!
Lois
-------------

"Dr. Christian Kurz" wrote:


I don't think that is true in this case, Joanna. If one were to
interpret the word "dose" as referring to the amount of source material
in the homeopathic preparation, then mere succussion of the remedy
before taking it does NOT decrease its concentration. Succussion
(without dilution) does not change the concentration of source material
contained in the remedy.

On an accurate reading, paragraph 280 leaves no leeway to speculation.
It is worded perfectly clearly and unambiguously (at least in German;
and even more so if you take into account what Hahneman says everywhere
else in the Organon and how he says it). What is INCREASED over the
duration of treatment is the amount of remedy the patient gets, i.e.,
the number of teaspoons or equivalent. What is MODIFIED each time
before taking the remedy is the potency through succussion.

Note, that these statements are only made with respect to LM potencies.
It does not necessarily follow that one should give more globules of a C
potency (dry or otherwise) during the course of constitutional
treatment.

...All of which fits the 'Ie' crystal model where succussion DOES increase
the concentration of the biologically active 'Ie' water species, regardless
of whatever the original remedy 'seed' concentration is/was.
So "dose" is actually a (multiplicand) quantity measure.
Brian Connelly
----------------------------------------
This 'Ie' model by LO is, in my considered opinion, plain bull. First, all
of his measurements are an old hat, having been done before by an Indian
research group with no result. There is no acknowledgement of this
research in Lo's paper. Second, several of the key equations in his paper
are flawed. Thirdly, what he describes is not new at all. The formation
of hydration shells in solutions is a well known process and I don't see
where what he describes differs from that. Fourth, there is self interest
and company money behind this research (that alone does not make it less
believable, but at least one should look a bit harder at the
results). Fourth the electron microscope images he shows are, in the
opinion of a truly experienced scientist (in the field and with the tool),
"dirt" and could not possibly be 'ice crystals' produced by the method Lo
describes. Fifth, why are these results not published in a widely known
publication?
So, taking all of this together, I would not hold my breath for any
revelations coming from this kind of research.
Chris. Kurz
P.S.: All of the above is my own, personal opinion, which I got from
reading his two papers.
The IE crystals are built up slowly and surely around the original remedy
matter, starting in the low potencies and building up with more and more
intensity as higher dilutions are made -- i.e. the crystals become more
intense at higher dilutions. At this point, random substrate in the water
doesn't matter, only the crystals within it.
Normally this kind of crystallization can't happen at normal pressures, but
Lo hypothesizes that this could happen in the succussed dilutions because
of the uniform and very sparse electric fields, whose tension builds up a
kind of electro-magnetic pressure. Throwing in little random substrate
matter doesn't interfere with this, because that random stuff isn't there
from the beginning in large quantities (as is the remedy matter).
Here is a paragraph from my book that might help:
"Lo and his team dubbed their water structures IE structures, because they
hypothesized that the "icy" structures (I) formed under the effect of an
electric field (E). They also felt that the structures could be formed at a
normal temperature and pressure because of the huge pressure that is built
up between an ion (the solute) and its surrounding water molecules when
those molecules are packed in regular, symmetric, and rigid ways. Now, if
there are many ions rolling around in a solution, they tend to disrupt
these structures and decrease this pressure. But if the ions grow farther
and farther apart (via dilution), the pressure builds and builds and the IE
structures grow. In particular, Lo and his colleagues found that dilutions
had to be in excess of a 10^-5 molar concentration before this could happen."
furthermore: from Lo:
"..the IE structures are first formed around ions in the solution and do
not occur anywhere else. We could generate these structures by breaking
them up with shaking. The spherical symmetric IE structures will break up
into many small pieces. These small pieces have [an] electric dipole moment
which generates a strong electric field at the poles to attract nearby
water molecules to form a bigger piece. These bigger pieces are magnet-like
except they have an electrical dipole and not a magnetic dipole. They exist
independent of the ions. They can be broken into smaller pieces and grow
bigger. Therefore, as the solution is diluted further ... IE structures
remain undiminished by dilution many times." [LO1, p. 913] (in fact, they
increase in number)
Amy Lansky
--------------

From Wired News, available online at:
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,33749,00.html
Homeopathy -- Dilute And Heal
by Andy Patrizio

3:00 a.m. 15.Mar.2000 PST
With a little help from a scientist looking for a way to clean car engines,
a physician believes he can explain the confounding paradox behind why
homeopathic medicine gets more potent as it's diluted.
Homeopathic medicine, discovered by a German physician more than 200 years
ago, espouses many concepts seen in other forms of alternative medicine --
namely, that the body can and knows how to heal itself.
Check yourself into Med-Tech
"Everybody's fine and hunky dory with "homeopathic concepts" until they
come to the part where the more you dilute and shake the substance, the
more powerful it gets and the deeper it reaches," said Dr. Bill Gray,
author of Homeopathy: Science or Myth.
"That doesn't make sense "for most practitioners", because we're used to
thinking in a chemical sense."
Just how the body reacts to varying dosages of medicine is still being
debated. Pharmaceutical and herbal medicines both operate under the notion
that more is more; whether it's aspirin, Prozac, or Echinacea, the more
milligrams per dose, the quicker the cure.
Not so in homeopathy. The "law of infinitesimals" states that the more you
dilute a drug, the more potent it gets. Arnica, for example, can address a
sprain or bruise in low potencies. In high potency, it can adversely affect
a person's mental state.
Remedies are made with one part of the material, which can be a chemical,
element, plant, or even poison, added to nine or 99 parts water. The water
is vigorously shaken after the material is added. Then one drop of that
water is added to another nine or 99 drops of water, a process called
"succussing."
The mixture is again shaken and the process repeated. After repeating this
hundreds or even thousands of times, the water is poured onto sugar
pellets, which is how the medicine is administered.
This intense watering down conflicts with accepted laws of chemistry,
namely Avogadro's Number, which states that any substance becomes
untraceable if it is diluted beyond when a single molecule of the chemical
can be found.
Critics point out that homeopathic medicines are diluted far beyond
Avogadro's Number. The thesis of Gray's book is that water gains structure
through the whole succussing process.
"The point is, now that modern research shows that water that's prepared
homeopathically is altered in its structure, this water does actually alter
tissue cultures, organ function, and entire animals," said Gray, who has
been practicing homeopathy in the San Francisco Bay Area for 29 years.
Validation of the dilution process came in a roundabout way, thanks to
research by Shui Yin Lo, a former visiting associate professor in the
chemistry department at California Institute of Technology. Lo was
performing experiments on how to improve car engine efficiency when he made
the discovery.
Lo, who now is the director of research and development at American
Technologies Group found that water molecules, which are random in their
normal state, begin to form a cluster when a substance is added to water
and the water is vigorously shaken -- the exact process homeopaths use to
create their medicine.
Lo said every substance exerts its own unique influence on the water, so
each cluster shape and configuration is unique to the substance added. With
each dilution and shaking, the clusters grow bigger and stronger. This
water, which homeopaths call "potentized," is considered "structured
water," because the water molecules have taken on a shape influenced by the
original substance.
The clusters start to assume a form that mimics the structure of the
original substance itself. So even though the chemical can no longer be
detected, its "image" is there, taken on by the water molecules.
"If these clusters were unique to the original solute, and the observations
are true that they can perpetuate themselves the more they are diluted or
shaken, then the original material becomes irrelevant," Gray said.
The American Medical Association, which stated in its charter it was formed
"to stamp out the scourge of homeopathy," declined to comment on Gray's
book, homeopathy, or alternative medicine.
"We just believe "alternative medicine" needs to be studied more and
patients should keep their physician in the loop. But we don't talk about
one alternative therapy over another," said an AMA spokeswoman.
Dr. Richard Sarnat, a medical doctor and president of Alternative Medicine
Inc. in Highland Park, Illinois, said the theory of clustered water has
been around for some time, but up until now it hasn't been proven. The book
could help further the acceptance of homeopathy by explaining how it works.
"I think year by year, these types of ideas are more readily accepted into
the medical community as a whole," Sarnat said. "Acupuncture in the 1960s
was considered voodoo. Given the full range of things we've researched in
alternative medicine, "electromagnetics" is no bigger a stretch than any
other phenomenon under investigation." Copyright 1994-99 Wired Digital
Inc. All rights reserved.
-------------
The recent discussion questioned whether hydrogen bonded water molecules
could be created and remain stable at higher temperatures (especially in
India).
The references below describe a mathematical theory of formation of so
called "Ie" crystal isomorphs in dilute solutions . They can ONLY form in
homeopathic range dilutions, are stable up to approx 180 deg F and
microphotographs show the isolated structures really do exist. In fact,
through an as yet unidentified mechanism, these isomorphs appear to "breed"
upon succussion.
Since the energy of succussion is transmitted as a "shearing" force from
the wall of the glass container to the fluid, and strange localized
mass/energy transfer phenomena can occur in fluid "boundary layers" at the
wall, one can postulate that the ratio of total surface area (to liquid
volume) might relate to potency via a 2/3 power law. Last year, David
Little provided some remedy dilution data (in different sized bottles) to
support this idea. Extending this idea, we may discover the breeding mechanism.
Further, the references below provide some data to indicate that, at a
given stage of dilution, the concentration (read as equivalent to potency)
reaches a saturation limit with increasing number of succussions! What this
means is that, as you move up in dilution stages, the saturation limit is
increased through each stage also, given "enough" succussion.
This basically gives us a new theory of posology with testable predictive
value...which, in turn, can lead to much more efficient (and cheaper)
methods of remedy preparation that
can be standardized across manufacturers regardless of prep method.
Coming down to earth, I see each remedy having its own unique set of
crystalline isomorphs that through dilution/succussion fractionation (in
the chem eng meaning of fractionation) are gradually purified and
concentrated (by breeding) away from the crude remedy tincture. This means
that, given a stable isomorph set, eventually you could theoretically have
a highly potentized remedy that contains no molecules of the original
substance.
Therefore, Avogadro's theoretical limit is not relevant to this model
!! (For other reasons,
it's not a limit anyway because of boundary layer/adsorption
effects). While it is true that very little of the original "seed" remedy
is left at high dilution, we are looking in the wrong place! It's the self
breeding WATER isomorphs that are the active species. Again, from
observation, the weight % of the isomorphs has been estimated as high as 3%
of the solution.
Now for the next chapter of this book....."How isomorphs interact with the
soma"..... (Tongue in cheek, that'll take a lot more research !)

Enough! Go forth and speculate. Believe it or not, "conventional" science
is no enemy.
REFERENCES:
1. Anomalous State of Ice
ShuiYin Lo, Modern Physics Letters B, Vol.10, No. 19 (1996) 909919.
2. Physical Properties of Water with Ie Structures
ShuiYin Lo, Angelo Lo, Li Wen Chong, Lin Tianzhang, Li Hui Hua, Xu
Geng Modern Physics Letters B, Vol.10, No. 19 (1996) 921930.
==============

At 06:08 AM 9/14/2001 -0700, you wrote:

Dear Minutus members,

I'm a mechanical engineering student from Tehran, Iran. I have been
studying homoeopathy for 3 years but my studies have been very few and
scattered.

Have any one of you heard of IE crystals? These water crystals do not melt
at room temperature! The water from which these ice crystals are made is
homoeopathic water. American Technologies Group has used IE crystals and
has made different products for mechanical and chemical engineering use. I
would like to conduct a research on these crystals. Do you know any sources?

Yours truly,

Feras Hakkak
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ardavan Shahrdar]

Dear Feras,

IE crystals are the discovery of Shui-Yin Lo which may
explain the power of dynamized solutions as is used in
homoeopathy.

There is an article in Dana Ulman's Site on this
issue:

http://www.homeopathic.com/research/ice.htm

Best,

Ardavan

--- Feras Hakkak wrote: >

=====
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[freelynn]

Hello Feras,

Here's another site that might be of interest to you concerning water crystals
http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co ... sters.html

it was originally posted by Brian Connelly on the Lyghtforce list

Lynn Cremona
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