Hi Marilyn,
I just spotted a part of your email that arrived hidden in a
paragraph I wrote - (quoting system glitch) so I missed it at first:
You'd be hard pressed to find any food I did not study for
suitability for cats:-)
Yes it is toxic in several ways - alfalfa especially, but also
rosemary extract, potato and sweet potato, carrots, spinach, peas,
tomatoes, apples, dulse, cranberries, black currants. licorice root,
tumeric root, funugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint
leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosehips.
Good grief - cats are obligate carnivores - ALL that stuff does harm
to cats!
The sunflower oil is inflamamtory, the psyllium damages gut walls,
etc etc .
Because they include the bone and thus easily assimilated minerals
from them.
Not necesarily no.
My cats yesterday got roast turkey and Nori as their extras; and the
day before they got pumpkin and rice bran, and today they'll likely
get canned salmon.
It is destroyed in the canning process, and also disappears in fresh
food over time - and cats can not make it unlike people.
So it is needed with the sardines, salmon and so on.
To add what is missing in ProPac kitten.
Cats need high carotene for immune system health - it is used
directly and not converted to Vit A, and it turns out (from my own
research on feline longevity) that cooked pumpkin is a beneficial way
to provide it.
Rice bran is added because of the 22 fibers tested, it is the mosgt
nutritious and best fermenterd by *feline& gut bacteria to make the
nutrients they need and can not get from veg and fruit.
Feeding cats veg and fruit just inflames their gut lining and messes
with their pH and urinary system; they have no way to actually digest
it. It's their gut bacteria that break down certain fibers (rice bran
or beet fiber being best) to make the missing nutrients they need -
and this gut health is essential in cats. ProPac does provide beet
fiber - but not the carotene - and some extra fiber in rice bran with
its super nutrient profile, is just beneficial - extra B vits, beta-
sitosterol, omega-9 and so on.
Bifidus supplement is to boost appropriate gut bacteria colonies. The
acidophilus type is useless to cats as they are lactose intolerant,
and acidophilus is in the lactobacillus family ( = they eat lactose -
milk sugar which cats can not process), and the cat pH is also
different in the gut and needs the right gut bacteria to make their
folic acid, PABA, other B vitamins, butyrate, propionate, acetate
etc....for organ support, and to process some waste nitrogenous
substances so as not to stress the kidneys.
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
Cat Food (OT)
-
Marilyn Wagner
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm
Re: Cat Food (OT)
Irene, again you did not directly answer my question...
Have you looked at Go Natural (esp their grain free)? Orijen?
or did you just look at it now?
Do you have a copy of "Herbs for Pets" by Mary L. Wrulff-Tilford & Gregory L. Tilford? That may help you to put into perspective the toxicity you are claiming about some herbs. Please remember too, that altho cats are obligate carnivores, in the wild they will eat mice, rabbits, etc, which DO have herbs, grasses etc in their gut system, so small amounts of "greens" ARE appropriate. My cats LOVE sprouted wheat grass!:)
I do agree with the sunflower oil caution...as I have seen no real good to this additive...and some allergic reactions as well.
As to
...adding salmon and sardines...canned...hmmmm, have you ever seen a cat eating fish from a creek??? I haven't, so why would they eat ocean fish? You are calling cats carnivores and then putting your own interpretation on what meats they should be eating.
...extra taurine...I think food companies are more than careful about adding taurine since they "found out" what the lack of taurine would do. If you are concerned about the cats needing extra taurine, why not supplement with heart? It has natural taurine, which is easier assimilated than supplements.
My concern too, which you didn't address, was the "daily" addition of Vit E. This is a fat soluble vitamin, which means that it is not "washed out" of their systems like Vit B & C...which means that it can build up to toxic levels in a short time. The food that you are recommending, ProPac, has Vit E used as a preservative, and then you are adding more to their daily, apparently daily. Please stop!
I think the big problem here is that there is NO ONE "good" cat food. This is why I usually recommend feeding 2-4 different brands of cat food (and raw meat supplementation as well, if possible). I also think that each cat has slightly different nutritional needs (just as humans do!) and that one will "do well" on one brand/formulation and the next...even with very similar "health problems" will not do well. For goodness sakes, we don't know enuf about human nutrition, how would we possibly know "all" about feline nutrition?
Marilyn
Have you looked at Go Natural (esp their grain free)? Orijen?
or did you just look at it now?
Do you have a copy of "Herbs for Pets" by Mary L. Wrulff-Tilford & Gregory L. Tilford? That may help you to put into perspective the toxicity you are claiming about some herbs. Please remember too, that altho cats are obligate carnivores, in the wild they will eat mice, rabbits, etc, which DO have herbs, grasses etc in their gut system, so small amounts of "greens" ARE appropriate. My cats LOVE sprouted wheat grass!:)
I do agree with the sunflower oil caution...as I have seen no real good to this additive...and some allergic reactions as well.
As to
...adding salmon and sardines...canned...hmmmm, have you ever seen a cat eating fish from a creek??? I haven't, so why would they eat ocean fish? You are calling cats carnivores and then putting your own interpretation on what meats they should be eating.
...extra taurine...I think food companies are more than careful about adding taurine since they "found out" what the lack of taurine would do. If you are concerned about the cats needing extra taurine, why not supplement with heart? It has natural taurine, which is easier assimilated than supplements.
My concern too, which you didn't address, was the "daily" addition of Vit E. This is a fat soluble vitamin, which means that it is not "washed out" of their systems like Vit B & C...which means that it can build up to toxic levels in a short time. The food that you are recommending, ProPac, has Vit E used as a preservative, and then you are adding more to their daily, apparently daily. Please stop!
I think the big problem here is that there is NO ONE "good" cat food. This is why I usually recommend feeding 2-4 different brands of cat food (and raw meat supplementation as well, if possible). I also think that each cat has slightly different nutritional needs (just as humans do!) and that one will "do well" on one brand/formulation and the next...even with very similar "health problems" will not do well. For goodness sakes, we don't know enuf about human nutrition, how would we possibly know "all" about feline nutrition?
Marilyn
-
Marilyn Wagner
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm
Re: Cat Food (OT)
I think you definitely look at a different "big picture" than me. I see cat foods loaded with FAT as bad...worse for cats than any apparent toxic herbs, fruits or veggies! I look at the garbage fillers and the ingredients that are actually in the foods, but "fudged" on the labels.
To each their own...
Marilyn
To each their own...
Marilyn
-
Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Cat Food (OT)
Hi Marilyn
I'm not well-read on the subject of cats' diets, but thinking of this
from the standpoint of what's *natural* for cats, surely a generous
amount of fat is within the range of what they're adapted to? Protein
and fat, what else would they get in the wild? (Plus a few mouthfuls
of grass, i would think?)
Shannon
I'm not well-read on the subject of cats' diets, but thinking of this
from the standpoint of what's *natural* for cats, surely a generous
amount of fat is within the range of what they're adapted to? Protein
and fat, what else would they get in the wild? (Plus a few mouthfuls
of grass, i would think?)
Shannon
-
Marilyn Wagner
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm
Re: Cat Food (OT)
Hi Shannon...
Looking at foods...it's not simply a matter of the %s, but the quality of the products....and "by-products".
Looking at prey in the wild...how many wild FAT animals do you see?:) Mainly, they are lean and trim...and their meat would be the same. Also, the quality of this fat is FAR different than the fat that is usually put into cat foods. The fat in commercial foods is often rendered from the "by-products". This is the stuff that clogs their veins and arteries. It congests their bodies. It is not "healthy" fat. You will find this type of fat prevalent in "grocery store" or "big chain" brands.
As to what else they would get...they will eat the soft bones, so get natural calcium, and minerals, as well as natural glucosamine. They eat the stomach contents, so will get whatever (mostly) digested foods that the prey animal has eaten. They will eat the organs and will get the amino acids from these. ETC!:)
Now, having said all this...creating a diet that mimics this natural prey diet is almost impossible...for a number of reasons. The top 2 would be that no one seems to be able to put that all together into a bag...and... what they eat is slightly different every time. I think this is important to remember! Do we eat the same things every day? Would that give us "complete nutrition"? So yes, it's good to "mix it up" with their foods...or at least their supplements. Keep in mind too, there will be seasonal differences...and differences as they get older...
Also remember that wild prey will likely be laden with parasites...so not necessarily "the best" diet either! That would take us into a whole nuther discussion!
One thing also VERY important to remember is PLENTLY of fresh water. With a raw diet, they will get the fluid intake from the fresh flesh and blood. When they are given a solely commercial dry diet, they will need to find that fluid elsewhere. Remember too that fluoridated water is not for kitties! Drinking fountains often encourage them to drink more...and flush the toxins out of their bodies.
Whew. I did go on, didn't I???:) I hope I've answered your questions? It's not simply "black and white"...
Marilyn
Looking at foods...it's not simply a matter of the %s, but the quality of the products....and "by-products".
Looking at prey in the wild...how many wild FAT animals do you see?:) Mainly, they are lean and trim...and their meat would be the same. Also, the quality of this fat is FAR different than the fat that is usually put into cat foods. The fat in commercial foods is often rendered from the "by-products". This is the stuff that clogs their veins and arteries. It congests their bodies. It is not "healthy" fat. You will find this type of fat prevalent in "grocery store" or "big chain" brands.
As to what else they would get...they will eat the soft bones, so get natural calcium, and minerals, as well as natural glucosamine. They eat the stomach contents, so will get whatever (mostly) digested foods that the prey animal has eaten. They will eat the organs and will get the amino acids from these. ETC!:)
Now, having said all this...creating a diet that mimics this natural prey diet is almost impossible...for a number of reasons. The top 2 would be that no one seems to be able to put that all together into a bag...and... what they eat is slightly different every time. I think this is important to remember! Do we eat the same things every day? Would that give us "complete nutrition"? So yes, it's good to "mix it up" with their foods...or at least their supplements. Keep in mind too, there will be seasonal differences...and differences as they get older...
Also remember that wild prey will likely be laden with parasites...so not necessarily "the best" diet either! That would take us into a whole nuther discussion!
One thing also VERY important to remember is PLENTLY of fresh water. With a raw diet, they will get the fluid intake from the fresh flesh and blood. When they are given a solely commercial dry diet, they will need to find that fluid elsewhere. Remember too that fluoridated water is not for kitties! Drinking fountains often encourage them to drink more...and flush the toxins out of their bodies.
Whew. I did go on, didn't I???:) I hope I've answered your questions? It's not simply "black and white"...
Marilyn
Re: Cat Food (OT)
Hi Marilyn,
I just looked at the ingredients in Orijen. Is this the cat/kitten food you recommend?
Product Description
Product Description
ORIJEN Orijen Adult Cat & Kitten Formula Dry Cat Food: Biologically Appropriate for All Cats and Kittens By nature, all cats are carnivores, possessing a biological need for a diet high in protein, rich in fresh meats and low in carbohydrate. With the highest inclusions of fresh grain-fed chicken, wild-caught northern whitefish and fresh whole eggs, ORIJEN CAT is bursting with the protein-packed human-grade meats (minimum 75%) cats and kittens need-and none of the grains or carbohydrates that are biologically inappropriate to cats. Cats have an instinctive ability to select and consume the grasses and weeds that enhance their life-force. With this in mind, ORIJEN contains native Canadian botanicals fenugreek, calendula, marshmallow root and milk thistle, all of which replicate the natural feline diet and help to soothe, nourish and tone the digestive tract, strengthen the liver and control insulin levels.
Important Information
Ingredients
FRESH REGIONAL INGREDIENTS:
Deboned chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, lake whitefish, chicken fat, sweet potato, whole eggs,de-boned turkey, salmon meal, salmon and anchovy oils, salmon, natural chicken flavour, sunflower oil, sun-cured alfalfa, dried brown kelp, carrots, spinach, peas, tomatoes, apples, psyllium, dulse, glucosamine Hcl, cranberries, black currants, rosemary extract, chondroitin sulfate, sea salt.
TONIC HERBS AND BOTANICALS:
Chicory root, lico
------------------------------------------
I just looked at the ingredients in Orijen. Is this the cat/kitten food you recommend?
Product Description
Product Description
ORIJEN Orijen Adult Cat & Kitten Formula Dry Cat Food: Biologically Appropriate for All Cats and Kittens By nature, all cats are carnivores, possessing a biological need for a diet high in protein, rich in fresh meats and low in carbohydrate. With the highest inclusions of fresh grain-fed chicken, wild-caught northern whitefish and fresh whole eggs, ORIJEN CAT is bursting with the protein-packed human-grade meats (minimum 75%) cats and kittens need-and none of the grains or carbohydrates that are biologically inappropriate to cats. Cats have an instinctive ability to select and consume the grasses and weeds that enhance their life-force. With this in mind, ORIJEN contains native Canadian botanicals fenugreek, calendula, marshmallow root and milk thistle, all of which replicate the natural feline diet and help to soothe, nourish and tone the digestive tract, strengthen the liver and control insulin levels.
Important Information
Ingredients
FRESH REGIONAL INGREDIENTS:
Deboned chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, lake whitefish, chicken fat, sweet potato, whole eggs,de-boned turkey, salmon meal, salmon and anchovy oils, salmon, natural chicken flavour, sunflower oil, sun-cured alfalfa, dried brown kelp, carrots, spinach, peas, tomatoes, apples, psyllium, dulse, glucosamine Hcl, cranberries, black currants, rosemary extract, chondroitin sulfate, sea salt.
TONIC HERBS AND BOTANICALS:
Chicory root, lico
------------------------------------------
-
Irene de Villiers
- Posts: 3237
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:00 pm
Re: Cat Food (OT)
Hi Shannon,
Yes you are correct. In fact cats use fat for energy (where we use
carbs more - though we use fats more than most people realize). Cats
also need to get animal fat not plant fat, due to specific
requirements they have such as the arachidonic acid from animal fats,
and the EPA and DHA from fish oil and the LACK of inflammatoy omega-6
from seed oils - for their otherwise very vulnerable kidneys. Fully
saturated fat is not good as it can not take part ion proper
metabolic reactions so foods with tallow are bad - chicken fat is not
all saturated and works well. Pork and beef fat work less well, and
it stands to reason - cats do not generally hunt cows and pigs. The
amino acid ratios in every meat (or plant) protein are different and
cats are built in a simplistic way (due to being small solo predators
and not having room to lug a bunch of metabolic equipment around) and
so the healthiest food is prey size animal food, and that will
protect the kidneys best. (The kidneys have to handle the leftovers
of inappropriate protein digestion).
Carbohydrates are not needed but can be used for energy. Fats on
the other hand are essential and the percentage should be relatively
high. For the non-protein part of the diet, it is better to have more
fat than more carbohydrate, as that is what cats are designed to
metabolize well.
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
Yes you are correct. In fact cats use fat for energy (where we use
carbs more - though we use fats more than most people realize). Cats
also need to get animal fat not plant fat, due to specific
requirements they have such as the arachidonic acid from animal fats,
and the EPA and DHA from fish oil and the LACK of inflammatoy omega-6
from seed oils - for their otherwise very vulnerable kidneys. Fully
saturated fat is not good as it can not take part ion proper
metabolic reactions so foods with tallow are bad - chicken fat is not
all saturated and works well. Pork and beef fat work less well, and
it stands to reason - cats do not generally hunt cows and pigs. The
amino acid ratios in every meat (or plant) protein are different and
cats are built in a simplistic way (due to being small solo predators
and not having room to lug a bunch of metabolic equipment around) and
so the healthiest food is prey size animal food, and that will
protect the kidneys best. (The kidneys have to handle the leftovers
of inappropriate protein digestion).
Carbohydrates are not needed but can be used for energy. Fats on
the other hand are essential and the percentage should be relatively
high. For the non-protein part of the diet, it is better to have more
fat than more carbohydrate, as that is what cats are designed to
metabolize well.
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
-
Marilyn Wagner
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm
Re: Cat Food (OT)
Let me be clear...I don't "recommend" any commercial food...I was offering alternatives to Irene's suggestion of a dry food, high in protein.
I believe that a cat's diet should come from numerous sources, keeping in mind what a cat would eat in the wild (and why) and what "the best" available alternatives are...
Marilyn
I believe that a cat's diet should come from numerous sources, keeping in mind what a cat would eat in the wild (and why) and what "the best" available alternatives are...
Marilyn
-
Soroush Ebrahimi
- Moderator
- Posts: 4510
- Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:00 pm
Re: Cat Food (OT)
Pray - What has all this stuff about cat food got to do with homeopathy pls?
Maintaining cause?
________________________________
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Marilyn Wagner
Sent: 07 August 2008 23:10
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Cat Food (OT)
Let me be clear...I don't "recommend" any commercial food...I was offering alternatives to Irene's suggestion of a dry food, high in protein.
I believe that a cat's diet should come from numerous sources, keeping in mind what a cat would eat in the wild (and why) and what "the best" available alternatives are...
Marilyn
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1597 - Release Date: 8/7/2008 5:54 AM
Maintaining cause?
________________________________
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Marilyn Wagner
Sent: 07 August 2008 23:10
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Cat Food (OT)
Let me be clear...I don't "recommend" any commercial food...I was offering alternatives to Irene's suggestion of a dry food, high in protein.
I believe that a cat's diet should come from numerous sources, keeping in mind what a cat would eat in the wild (and why) and what "the best" available alternatives are...
Marilyn
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1597 - Release Date: 8/7/2008 5:54 AM
Re: Cat Food (OT)
Hi Soroush,
I think so, didn't Hahnemann say something about food/diet?
Leilanae
________________________________
I think so, didn't Hahnemann say something about food/diet?
Leilanae
________________________________