vaccination antidote

[Shannon Nelson]

Hi Erica,
It's great to hear your experiences with this! I'm especially
intrigued that you've used it successfully on an unvaccinated child.
Could you tell us more about what happened there--what other remedies
had been tried, and what happened after the DTP (or was it DTaP?)
remedy? I wonder what would cause this particular picture in absence
of the child's having been vaccinated--any thoughts, and did you
receive the vaccine (or something similar)?

Thanks!
Shannon

[Shannon Nelson]

But that's a different thing from claiming to "never need" an acute or
etc. remedy.
Yes, I have heard of people that practice that way, and I can only
assume it's because they've never become comfortable with acute
prescribing, and/or do not want to handle unscheduled calls. What a
shame!!! Yet, one can only handle as much as one can handle...

I wonder if that's really what he was referring to, tho?
Shannon

[McPhee Family]

Hi Sheri,
I know you know! You led me to homeopathy! I was posting more or less in reponse for the original poster.
Actually, I don't think it *has* to be DTaP. Similar not same. And my son received DTaP vaccine but was given DTP remedy. FWIW!
I'm not sure you've seen the "entirety" of my discussion with Dr. Luc since he only posted his side on his blog. But perhaps you have, in which case you probably also know my brother (at age 38) had a severe reaction to a tetanus shot, and responded very well to DTP remedy. He also has an extended history of vaccine reaction as a child.
There are many homeopaths out there (not those posting on the list) blindly giving vaccine remedies which is giving it (and homeopathy) a bad name. My intention is to share my experience in the hopes it is useful for others.
Additionally, I have not found this to be the case (Shannon & Irene: that the usefulness of the nosode would be greater when the injury is very fresh, and less certain (perhaps even unlikely) after years have passed. The children that Dr. Luc (or most of us) is treating are probably months or years down the road.). In my son's case - 1.5 years following vaccine, in another case 10+ years later. I've seen like any other NWS...if it's *truly" the NWS. But, my experience is limited to 5 cases so certainly not the last word on it. And vaccine remedies are not a first choice for me - I prefer to give a chronic remedy which fits the totality...but if the shoe fits...
Truly,
Erica
Sheri wrote:
I know of this from the beginning with you and understand totally and have seen your discussion with Dr. Luc.

I also would say at this time the vaccine is for this child and all children is DTaP, different than DTP

Sheri

[Sheri Nakken]

exactly
I know of one in particular that I referred a few people to (never again)

And how many homeopaths are on call 24/7 or provide back up if they are on holiday or evenings, or weekends?
Very few. Thereby forcing the parents to self prescribe or to ER's.
Sheri
At 01:09 PM 6/1/2008, you wrote:

[Shannon Nelson]

Wonderfully educational experiences! Questions:
I don't remember the difference between the two vaccines (one is live,
or ??), but I assume that their proving pictures would be similar? Do
you happen to know how they compare?
Again I am curious what the prescribing indications were, if you know?

And I would love to have a better sense of how to judge *when* a
"vaccine remedy" (by that I assume you mean an isode, or at least a
potentized version of a similar vaccine?) is more apt to work? Do I
gather right that the successful uses you've seen were based on
"presenting picture" rather than simple fact that the problems had
followed up vaccination, or is that not correct either?
But NWS is not necessarily best met by the isode. I'm trying to figure
out whether it's simple correspondence between patient's presenting
symptoms, and materia medica of the isode, or something else that, in
your observation, leads to its appropriate and successful use?
And this part confused me... If the presenting symptoms point to the
vaccine remedy (isode?), presumably you'd use that first. Are you
saying you'd prefer to find a remedy that fits the patient's history,
prior state, etc., *as well as* those symptoms which might also be
covered by the vaccine rx? (In that case I would agree, *if* one can
be identified.)

I hope I'm not just being thick...
Thanks,
Shannon

[McPhee Family]

Hi Shannon,
The DTaP is the acellular pertussis version (and all kids now receive that instead of DTP - whole cell pertussis). The DTP used a killed version of the pertussis bacteria, containing all parts of the dead bacteria thus whole-cell pertussis. Both use dead virus but supposedly the acellular only contains the parts of the bacteria which create immunity, not the "bad" parts that created reactions like irritability and fever. At least that is what the CDC says. As far as I am aware there has not been a full proving of the DTP or DTaP remedy so there aren't any proving pictures to compare. For those homeopaths who use only "proven" remedies and do not accept "accidental" proving symptoms, this would eliminate the use of vaccine pathodes altogether for them. I attempted an independent proving of the DTP remedy on myself for my own personal knowledge with surprising results but I also have had a severe reaction to a Tetanus shot. I have no experience with the DTaP remedy so I can't report any personal information.
FWIW, the reaction symptoms reported in the VAERS database are virtually identical and are well represented in the link I included earlier. If we had 5 people who responded with similar symptoms to a Lachesis bite, we would consider those symptoms as an accidental proving. We have literally thousands of children who have responded with similar symptoms to the DTP or DTaP vaccine.

The prescribing indication for my brother was NWS the Tetanus shot. Accordingly, on page 323 of Dr. Luc's text, "Hahnemann Revisited," he states, "...Pertussin can be used for complications from DPT... Whenever we see a child react to DPT (as is very common), we should immediately administer a dose of Pertussin or a DPT 200c..."
Although Dr. Luc now feels this should not be done, the DTP remedy was given based on that indication and our previous experience given my son's response to the remedy. Would he have responded to Aurum or Silicea (other remedies he has since done well on)? Possible. But the situation was dramatic and he responded immediately to the vaccine remedy. (By responded, I mean the resulting symptoms were ameliorated.)
followed up vaccination, or is that not correct either?
I believe a "vaccine remedy" is technically considered a pathode like those made from a pure infectious agent (such as Staphylococcinum and Streptococcinum) which are often times incorrectly referred to as nosodes. It is my understanding true nosodes (like Tuberculinum or Medorrhinum) contain the active energy imprint of the body's reaction to the challenge to which it has been exposed (Saxton). If I am incorrect, I hope someone will please correct me.
I was not the homeopath for my son's case and had no idea what a remedy even was when he started the DTP remedy! But in one of my own cases, for example, the presenting symptoms were as described in the MM I shared previously and resulted in a 5 year old girl immediately following the vaccine. Very normal child - within 3 weeks of the vaccine - "autistic." When I took the case, I saw some indication for Stramonium but this mother came to me with the sole intention of using the vaccine pathode and had already given the first dose in water (from another homeopath). This is an example of where I would rather use an indicated "chronic" remedy first (see why below) but under the circumstances I was not changing the remedy as she had an immediately positive response. We let the remedy play itself out and she was almost completely back to normal with the exception of the underlying "fear" symptoms pointing to Stramonium. She is doing quite well and rarely requires a dose.
In my own child's case, my UNVACCINATED daughter began showing similar symptoms to her brother albeit much milder. She developed toe walking, tantrums, and occasional headbanging which her chronic remedy of Calc Carb was not addressing. She had done fantastic on Calc-C for almost a year. It had quickly addressed her food allergies and sleep issues, she grew, and was a much happier child. So, yes ... I gave her DPT remedy (30c, 1/2 tsp. from 1 dilution glass). After a small aggravation (toe walking and headbanging increased for several hours), she stopped toe walking and headbanging completely and has never done it again (1.25 years later). And then she continued on Calc-C.
This is a child who never received DPT vaccine (or any other). So in this instance, the remedy was given on the "picture" presenting, my experience with it, and the instance for any nosode/pathode use (when the indicated remedy stops working to clear a block). Now, I have to say, this was my own child so I felt comfortable in this choice. (Wasn't it Hahnemann that advocated practicing on yourself and your family first?
This comes to your last question...
Sorry to be confusing! Under normal circumstances of chronic prescribing, I would *now* typically choose a "chronic" remedy first over a pathode, nosode, isode if a "chronic" remedy seemed clear. Obviously, this is a change in my process since my brother's treatment - based on two things - Dr. Luc's change in sentiment, as well as Fran Sheffield's experiences (hi Fran!). Fran has had better/quicker success treating kids with autism using polycrests over vaccine pathodes.
So I wouldn't completely discard the vaccine pathodes as useless as Dr. Luc has but they may not be the first remedy I select. Does this mean I won't ever use the DTP remedy again - not at all. As I said, in my limited experience, the DTP remedy has brought very good results. To say whether another remedy would have brought better results in those cases is purely speculative however doesn't negate the experience.

Does that help?
Truly,
Erica

[Luise Kunkle]

Hi Erica,
The MMs are full of such accidental provings - e. g. poisonings. I
have never seen any reason why e.g. side effects of allopathic
remedies should not also be considered accidental provings.
Why does he feel so?

the DTP remedy
No, I should not think so.

While tuberculinum medorrhinum and psorinum do contain the matter of
the body's reaction, they also very lilkely contain the pathogens. We
have no way of telling whether it is indeed the potentized reaction
material that has the effect or whether it is the pathogens in them.

Since those substances you above called pathodes also seem to be
effective, I should think it more probable that it is the latter.

It would be interesting to make a nosode from the blood of patients
sick with Diphtheria/Pertussis/Tetanus and see how they work, since
the blood should contain the "active energy" of the antibodies.
In the early day he did his provings on himself and his family first,
yes.
Why would that influence you if your own experience show different?

as

I do not understand the reason. After all, the results seem to have
been equally good. So why not start with the obvious - thereby saving
yourself time and possibly the patient some money (and also time)?

Are the patients of the classical homeopaths all well off, so that
this plays no part in the consideration?

Before someone starts yelling about quality of treatment - the
experience has been that the nosodes worked at least equally good!!!

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

[Sheri Nakken]

Where is the proof of this statement?

Rarely does an infant received DTaP all on its own so how do we know
the symptoms are produced totally by that.
Hep B vax given at birth in US and elsewhere
2 months of age DTaP, IPV, HIB, Prevnar & Rotavirus
4 months of age - same as above PLUS another Hep B vax
6 months of age - same as above PLUS another Hep B vax PLUS Flu vax
12 months - HIB, MMR, Varicella, Prevnar, Hep A
and on it goes - see the chart
http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/cdc_comparison.pdf
The numbers in ( ) after the vaccine name means the age - 2 = 2 months, etc

So you can see there is a lot more than DTaP in the mix.

The DTaP has worked for some as the first remedy tried
The DTaP remedy has made others worse - that also has been reported
to me, or regression after use.

It is wonderful for those who have good results but not necessarily for all.

I would choose the simillimum first, even though there are reported
cases of success with the DTaP remedy.

Sheri

Sheri Nakken, former R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
http://www.wellwithin1.com/homeo.htm & http://www.wellwihtin1.com/vaccine.htm
ONLINE/Email classes in Homeopathy; Vaccine Dangers; Childhood Diseases

[Sheri Nakken]

PS - this is the US schedule.
Here also are European Schedules
http://www.euvac.net/graphics/euvac/vac ... ation.html
Sheri
At 05:19 PM 6/2/2008, you wrote:

[Luise Kunkle]

Hi Sheril,

I was referring to Erica's mail and to her own experience.

So for proof please refer to what she wrote.

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========