'Homeophobia' must not be tolerated

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Shannon Nelson
Posts: 8848
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm

Re: 'Homeophobia' must not be tolerated

Post by Shannon Nelson »

Hi all,
I haven't caught up reading yet, but want to say--
Is this specifically with reference to homeopathic remedies, or more
generally?
Because *generally* speaking, of course it is not required; we know
that it's changed by freezing etc., and according to Prof. Emoto's
photos also by the printed word (speaking of really odd, and where have
we heard something like that before? :-) )

Part of the reason for various specific instructions in homeopathy are
*not* because that's "the only way to do it", but simply for sake of
consistency and predictability (somewhat, anyway). I hope this isn't a
complete non-sequitur...
Shannon


Helen Tucker
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm

Re: 'Homeophobia' must not be tolerated

Post by Helen Tucker »



That is a good point.

I was under the impression that succussions are necessary to potentize a
homeopathic remedy. Otherwise, it would just be contaminated water. This
is also why regular water, with who knows what is diluted in it, is not
considered a bioactive, homeopathic remedy. That is, dilution itself is not
sufficient to make a remedy. Succussions are essential. Am I wrong?

Now, if Roy is saying that 1) what makes a remedy is not its composition but
its structure, and 2) that this structure can change without succussions,
then any water that has a changed structure can potentially become a remedy.
It follows that any water, inside or outside of the body, that has been
serially diluted with a material substance, can act as a remedy--even though
it hasn't been succussed. This is not consistent with homeopathic
principles, as I understand them.

So in my view, it is important to know if Roy is saying that liquid water
structure can change without succussions. In the earlier parts of the
paper, it appears that he says exactly that. It is only later in the paper
that he starts talking about the role of succussions. In the end, it
appears that he says water structure can change both with and without
succussions.

Helen


Gail
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:49 pm

Re: 'Homeophobia' must not be tolerated

Post by Gail »

" So in my view, it is important to know if Roy is saying that liquid
water
the
paper
I would agree that water structure can change both with and without
succussions because I have experienced that a remedy made with a
radionic machine can be just as effective as one that has been handmade
with serial dilution and succussion. While it stretches my logic and my
belief systems, and underneath I have trouble letting go of the idea
that the handmade remedy must be superior in some way, it still
happens. And of course Emoto's work on the memory of water, using words
and thoughts, also shows that water is pretty fluid when it comes to
being influenced by things external to itself.

Gail.


Helen Tucker
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm

Re: 'Homeophobia' must not be tolerated

Post by Helen Tucker »

First, I want to apologize. The comments about suspected senility were offered to me in private by my husband. He did not intend for them to become public. His public criticisms would have stuck to the paper itself and NOT offered speculations about the author that can be construed as a personal attack. I made an error in judgment in sharing those speculations. I'm sorry.
I talked with my husband for 45 min tonight about this paper. He does not have time to make a specific list until his vacation in the 2nd week of January. I understand his objections to the paper, but I am not versed in the technical aspects well enough to explain them satisfactorily. For example, I can say, "Glass is NOT similar to water, as Roy proposes," but my explanation would be rather simplistic. I'd rather write it up when my husband has time to participate. So please give us a couple of weeks.
In brief though, this is what my husband wrote:
In general, the most important point relevant to homeopathy in the paper is “…structure can be transferred by epitaxy with no presence whatsoever of the controlling phase,” (page 595) implying that this is the mechanism by which homeopathic effect is realized. However, most of the paper does not focus on supporting this argument.
Now to address Irene's comments...
>

Irene wrote:
If nano-fragments of glass serve as nucleating sites for water clusters, and "water clusters of different structure" is what form a remedy, then what type of glass is used when succussing is very influential on the structure of the remedy, don't you think?
Irene wrote:
But is that consistent with homeopathic principles? I understood that the only reason a remedy is bioactive is because a significant amount of material substance has been serially diluted and succussed under controlled conditions. I understood that whatever little contamination from the water and bottles during the manufacture of a remedy is insignificant.

Helen wrote: Another inconsistency is that, if Roy is correct in his paper, the change in the structure of water is very temporary after the succussions >>

Irene wrote:
Well, he doesn't say that outright. But as I understand it, the types of structural changes in water he is talking about, caused by epitaxy and pressure, are very brief in existing literature (measured in milliseconds). That is why he said that how long the structural changes last is unknown. Structural changes in water can be caused by EMFs, X-rays, contact with glass, intense pressure, succussions, epitaxy, etc. If structure can be changed by so many things, how is it that remedies hold their intended structure at all?

Irene:
From where I stand, what the paper actually says is in the eyes of the beholder, because he says a little bit of everything.

Irene: >
Roy is certainly lucky to have you in his corner, because you see the positive side of everything he says. That is fine that he has scientific integrity and all that. But it still doesn't dismiss the concern that if glass itself changes the structure of the water, what exactly is making the remedy potent? The glass, or the material substance dissolved, diluted, and succussed within it? It seems to me that if the glass is even in the equation, it would change the way homeopathy is practiced.
Irene: >
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. We just wanted to share ours. It's ok that we disagree..
Best,
Helen


Carol Boyce
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:00 pm

Re: 'Homeophobia' must not be tolerated

Post by Carol Boyce »

" I understood that the only reason a remedy is bioactive is because a significant amount of material substance has been serially diluted and succussed under controlled conditions. "

Just a (gentle) reminder to ourselves, since we are discussing precise meanings, that when we discuss issues we also need to be precise in our use of the language of homeopathy.

As I understand it, what is actually being discussed in Roy's paper (and this thread ) is specifically the possible mechanism of POTENTIZATION.

But what makes a substance HOMEOPATHIC is it's use according to the Law of Similars - so that a crude dilution of a substance without any succussion at all can be homeopathic (and therefore very effective) in it's action, when prescribed according to the Law of Similars.
The serial dilution and succussion of potentization was a later refinement by Hahnemann to among other things, increase/ release the inner essence of the substance - to enable inert substances to be used as medicines - and otherwise dangerous substances to be used in complete safety. There are many cases resolved with simple dilutions where the material substance is still very much in evidence.

ATB Carol

Carol Boyce MCH, CCH, RSHom(NA)


Soroush Ebrahimi
Moderator
Posts: 4510
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:00 pm

Re: 'Homeophobia' must not be tolerated

Post by Soroush Ebrahimi »

Dear Helen

If you watch his presentation at the homoeopathic debate, you will see that
the technique is claimed to be able to differentiate not only between
remedies, but different
potencies of the same.

Did you not watch his talk?
Go to
http://mediasite.uchc.edu/Mediasite41/V ... spx?mode=D
efault&peid=407916ea-6301-4ede-b04f-c3650e4073a7&pid=cb4535b1-6610-4f6f-9c47
-89f4114476ec&playerType=WM64Lite Push the time slider to 23 minutes.

Make sure Dave watches too. Then I think a lot of questions will be
answered.

Regards

Soroush


Soroush Ebrahimi
Moderator
Posts: 4510
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:00 pm

Re: 'Homeophobia' must not be tolerated

Post by Soroush Ebrahimi »

Dear Helen
I think it is best that we wait for Dave to list his issues with Prof Roy's documents.
Then I will forward them to him and request a reply.

Regards

Soroush


Luise Kunkle
Posts: 1180
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:00 pm

Re: 'Homeophobia' must not be tolerated

Post by Luise Kunkle »

Hi Soroush,
This is really the crux of the matter. Plausible hypotheses do not
count for much.

Thus:

Where and by whom has that been shown?
Has the method been written up and published to enable others to
reproduce it?
Has it been reproduced with comparable results?

Can you point me to sites where I find an answer to those questions?

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========


Soroush Ebrahimi
Moderator
Posts: 4510
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:00 pm

Re: 'Homeophobia' must not be tolerated

Post by Soroush Ebrahimi »

Dear Luise

If you look at the bottom of slide 54 & 55, reference is given to ''The
defining role of structure (including epitaxy) in the plausibility of
homeopathy.''

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d=showdeta
ilview&indexed=google

I suppose when Helen and Dave have done their list, we can add your
questions to them.

Regards

Soroush


Shannon Nelson
Posts: 8848
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm

Re: 'Homeophobia' must not be tolerated

Post by Shannon Nelson »

Hi Helen,
Overall this discussion is way beyond me for the moment (e.g. haven't
even glanced at the paper yet), but some general points:
Note that "to potentize a homeopathic remedy" is not necessarily the
same as "to change the structure of water"--but also, as Gail points
out, effective (tho some say not quite the same) remedies are made by
means other than succussion, e.g. radionics. Some say these are not
strictly "homeopathic", but that is a whole separate, and not
particularly related, debate.

So I would say your statement above is *philosophically* true according
to some people, but not practically so.
In the case of a radionically prepared remedy, not even contaminated!
:-)
Now your last statement is VERY true, and a point often overlooked in
statements of "isn't homeopathy ridiculous". You are quite right that
dilution itself is not sufficient. (Thank God! :-) )
If you're making a remedy from the *substance itself*--which is the
traditional, "approved", and some would say "only correct" method, then
yes (so far as I know). Well, other than via one of those (same name
yet different thing?) radionics remedy makers that can start from the
substance itself... But that's a whole other kettle of worms, isn't
it!

Some people would define a "homeopathic remedy" as one applied *and*
made by Hahnemann's method; others are okay with it made by any means,
so long as it works the same. (worms, worms, worms... :-D )
Ah, that statement would be more consistent with the second view, and
does make sense to me--it would seem that (maybe?) the structure is
what carries the effect, and does it matter *practically* how that
structure is achieved? To some people is matters very much
philosophically; to others, not. (But it seems to me that as the
process of achieving the structure is changed, uncertainties creep
in... How do you know *how* similar the effects will be? How do you
know if it's *really* the same, without lots of trial and (already too
easy) error? That's IMO the best argument in favor of "following the
rules"... But, that's just my opinion.)
Yes, *potentially*. And the traditional way of finding out what it is
and does, of course, would be provings!
What would be an example of "serial dilution without succussion"?
Clearly it can...
Important to note that *homeopathy* depends on far more than merely
changing water's structure; you need to know what the *effect* of that
changed structure will be, and how to apply it. That's where
consistency of method and carefulness of testing and application come
into it! All sorts of things are *potential* remedies, but we can't
use them effectively for *homeopathy* until we know how they will act,
what "disease picture" they may apply to...
Yes!
Shannon


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