Abortion

[Shelley Epstein]

I have a question: When do these maternal instincts kick in (in people, not
animals)? At the point of conception? Upon finding out one is pregnant?
Somewhere further along in the pregnancy? At childbirth?

Opinions on abortion aside, and addressing another point that is being
discussed, I think that the answer differs for each woman.

Shelley
on 2/9/02 6:11 PM, Finrod at finrod@webstar.co.uk wrote:

[isali ben-jacob]

Exactly, which is to say that we as a specie live in a period of our history when reproduction shares the stage of life's path with other social elements, and that we as a specie are able to manipulate our environment and are able to elect from among any circumstance one of many alternatives.

Our mythology is rooted in our period and we need to apply our principles to current myths for there to be a song of life.

[Rochelle]

Sounds like insecurity to me!!

Rochelle

www.rochellemarsden.co.uk
--- "Finrod" wrote:

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[Rochelle]

I wonder if it on their website?? I suppose you could send for it. www.homeopathy-soh.org

Rochelle

www.rochellemarsden.co.uk
--- "Sheila Parks" wrote:

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[Tanya Marquette]

One way to understand the question is to view childbearing in an economic way. When children are needed to sustain the population or the family's survival, childbearing is most important. In our times, in western culture, at any rate, overpopultion is a great concern. Infant mortality is also very low which also insures that our children will survive into adulthood. The prospect of individual longevity doesnt require progeny in the way it once did. This cultural change has allowed a change in values. In communities where young girls have little to look forward to, pregnancy is a way to gain some status and love--a little momentary meaning in life. That is why teen pregnancy is such a difficult issue to deal with here. It is not some kind of perverse pressure that has distorted maternal instincts. It is development of a broader, larger platform of life possibilities that has occurred.

This discussion is so interesting and so to the point of prejudice in our case taking. A group read-through of the posts on prejudice in case-taking and abortion seems to point to this very thing. Most of the women's posts reflect an accepting and positive attitude towards women's choices where the men seem to have a negative, value laden view of the subject. Soroush asked a question about women's choices concerning abortion and then indicated that he believes women have been pressured in some distorted way to lose their maternal instinct. I hope that he can hear the perspective of the women on the list that put forth a different feeling. I would hate to be treated by someone who saw core values of mine as pathological just because they were different.

tanya

[Piet Guijt]

Andrew,

I agree with you Abortion is murder.
As Homeopaths we no where life begins, because we know the principle of the
Vital force which is on the physical level, the tool of the soul.
We always support the vital force with our remedies. What give us the right
to end it?
Just like Andrew said:"There is no reason for homeoapths to follow the
allopahs in betraying the hippocratic oath".

There are no 'valid' reasons to kill another individual, except when the
life of the mother in danger. Then we have to choose between: to loose one
life or when we do nothing both.
Mankind wants to play for God, but He is the only one who gives and takes
life.
In fact all the justifacitions for Abortus provocatus can be bring back to
egoism.
And this does not mean I don't care for other poor children, I have adopted
a child in India, which gets meals for her and her family and education.

Regards, Piet

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Dear Tanya

Is this cultural change that you refer to more humane or selfish?

Pls also summarise these feelings so that we can work on them.

Tnx
Soroush

[Nancy Siciliana]

Maybe you can help some of us "lady colleagues" understand why it is that so many men:

1)Abandon their children without so much as a "toodle-doo"! after a divorce or separation. This practice is so widespread that the number of fathers who refuse to pay child support to help their ex-wives (the mother of "their" children) raise, feed, clothe, educate the child has climbed to such an unmanageable one that law enforcement agencies are helpless to enforce laws which would compel fatherly responsibility (In North America, this is catastrophically the case). So, every year, millions of "dead beat" dads forget about their children very easily. And poverty becomes, as Sheila Parks put it so well, "Feminized" in North America.

I also mean "abandon" when I mention men who commonly start "second" families--on which they lavish attention, money, etc--all while the children of the first union are left often to live in poverty, as their sole means of support comes from their mother (and we all know poverty in North America is largely a phenomenon experienced by women and children).

I don't want to leave out that in societies on which our very own was founded, such as those very patriarchal ancient Greek ones, the "father" reserved the right to decide which of his children would live or die--and he would simply commit infanticide. This is making a conscious decision to kill one's own off spring AFTER the child has been born (so that you don't start with the argument of "when life begins..."). Even then, the woman who bore the child was not allowed to step in and intervene in this decision--she was forced to accept it.

2)Rape, commit incest with their children (mostly daughters--you should be aware that this is a large part of the teenage pregnancy "problem" in North America), kill and rape women and children without a second thought during wars....where they then claim they were "just following orders"

3)Feel the need to entrench in law their desire to control another human being's body--to tell a woman what she may or may not do with her body...in effect, to remove her right to "own" her own body.

Gentlemen, these are not just moral indescretions. These are also signs of severe pathology...but I see this behaviour go unquestioned every day--hear about lawsuits where children grew up in poverty while their fathers lavished the "second" family or the "legitimate" children with expensive lives and continue to wish to withold their support for their own flesh and blood. I hear about pregnant teenagers and what a problem they are (and what a huge problem they'd really be, if more of those little girls told who the "fathers" actually are) all the time...and the news about systematic raping and killing of civilians--women and children--comes in every day.

I suppose many think it is immoral for a woman to exercise her right to determine herself and the way in which she will use her body--but let's not throw arrows around at the ladies and ignore the "male" manifestation of the whole "reproductive rights/sanctity of human life" issue. When the "shoe is on the other foot", men don't have any hesitation about killing off or completely forgetting about their own flesh and blood (and I've noticed they've never had any trouble forcing a woman to abort a child they don't want, either.).

But the truth remains: it is not pathological for a woman to determine her own destiny and decide how she will use her own reproductive capacity. It IS pathological to want to deny a woman this kind of self-determination--it is literally denying a woman the right to her own body. If you look at the remedies Pulsatilla, Staphysagria, Sepia, Lillium Tigrinum, Carcinosin, and any of the so-called "Women's remedies", you'd be well aware just how women suffer as a result of being denied this right.

Nancy

[Tanya Marquette]

Soroush,

Simply put, these changes reflect the dialectics of the times. I could argue selfishness for someone who has children when they are not fit, mentally, emotionally or financially to care for them. If you hold onto your biases rigidly, I dont think there is anything I can say that will open you to the possibilities of other thoughts, feelings or perspectives.

sincerely,

tanya

[The Annan's]

I can only say that in my experience - my own maternal instincts 'kicked in'
around the time I conceived. Not when I suspected it because my period was
late. Not upon *finding out* from having it confirmed with a test. Strange?
Somehow I knew I was pregnant when it happened (within a day or so...and it
can take what? up to three days to conceive....well..that about matches when
I '*felt* it I guess...)....

Maybe it is different for each woman?
Dunno...

Lisa