do homeopaths generally believe that HERBS are merely FOOD & of limited use?

[prestonfoell]

Dear Members,

Having been an Oriental Medicine student prior to becoming a
passionate advocate and student of homeopathy, I often find homeopaths
expressing essentially that herbs have therapeutic effects lying
somewhere between food and homeopathic remedies -- but typically
stated that herbs are much closer to being food.

It seems that OM schools in USA focus on acupuncture and not giving
adequate attention, let alone excellent training in Chinese Herbal
Medicine. This is in spite of the fact that herbal medicine is used
more often in China than acupuncture and that by far more books in the
several thousand year old tradition have been written on herbology.

Herbalist and homeopath Mathew Wood, cousin to the late, great
homeopathic advocate Julian Winston, talks and teaches about using
very small doses of herbs. He states that when the herb or herbs are
correctly prescribed, that only a few drops are necessary. I lived
in Minnesota for many years, and I have spoken to many of his
satisfied clients and to him personally.

Mr. Wood seems ultimately there to help his patients and expresses a
profound love for both herbs and homeopathy. He has studied an
extraordinary amount of books/authors of both herbal and homeopathic
medicine and has used his book knowledge and extensive clinical
experience integrating herbs and homeopathy to the betterment of his
patients for decades.

I'm wondering if we homeopaths could learn more from the likes of Mr.
Wood, or perhaps be more open to the possibility that herbs can
effectively treat patients, too.

The respected J.C. Burnett seemed to have success using Mother
Tinctures and low-dose potencies, too

I would be grateful if practioners who have experience, general
knowledge, or even beliefs on the therapeutic qualities that herbs can
have in healing patients would post their comments here or in private.
Practitioners with experience in chinese herbal medicine would be
especially welcomed.

Thank you very much for your anticipated help!
Respectfully,

Preston Foell

[Rochelle]

At our college (NWCH) we were taught a little about using herbal tinctures
alongside homeopathic remedies but the difference being we were taught to
give them in drop doses rather than the teaspoon doses that herbalists give.
e.g. Crateagus 6 drops 3x a day as a heart tonic to bring down cholesterol
and blood pressure, Lobelia 5 drops (2 in children) instead of inhalers for
wheezing.

Rochelle
Registered Homeopath
EFT(Advanced) Practitioner
www.southporthomeopathy.co.uk

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Dear Preston

It depends on how you define medicine and food.

Some diets - especially Middle Eastern includes a quantity of herbs like
parsley, variety of mints, spring onions, radishes etc etc as part of the
meal - eaten fresh and uncooked. These are often eaten by the handful. The
knowledge about the medicinal properties of these is passed down in the
folklore.

In any case, they (green vegetables) are excellent for reducing the hormone
Homocystine which in turn leads to a lowering of cholesterol.
(Homocystine damages the internal walls of the blood vessels. To repair,
the body produces cholesterol.)

Mixing of therapies is not recommended - because effectively, it is poly
pharmacy!

Regards

Soroush

[DCR]

As with the other 'alternative' therapies - there is no single entry point into homeopathy, no single form of training, and certainly no single form of practice. I would be very surprised if you get any consensus on this list about herbs, food, related therapies, or anything else. We can't even agree on what is 'classical'. But the diversity is what makes this list interesting and a valuable resource. So your subject line question "do homeopaths generally believe . . . " may generate some interesting responses.
I started out intensively studying medicinal herbs over 30 years ago and only added homeopathy much later. My primary practice now is as a naturopath/homeopath. I certainly find homeopathy to be the single most effective therapy/approach, but have no problem utilizing nutrition, herbs, etc. and no problem in recommending acupuncture/reflexology/massage/yoga/etc when appropriate.

[Shannon Nelson]

Hi Preston,
A few more "cents" into the account you have already received... )
The effect that the herbs has--whether homeopathic, or medicinal, or
food-like--will certainly depend largely on what relationship the
remedy has to the physiology, condition and situation of the
eater/taker--in other words, will depend on how the herb relates to
"the case".

One reason that a homeopath, or a homeopathically aware herbalist,
would/could prescribe the herbs in such small-yet-effective doses, is
that they will be prescribing herbs that do have a homeopathic
correspondence to the case; not just "goldenseal for infection", BUT
goldenseal for infection involving specific types (e.g. color, texture)
of discharge, and/or specific sensations, etc.

If one is relying on the chemical action of the herb one would need
larger doses, compared with utilizing energetic correspondence.
My understanding is that many, perhaps most, of the OM practitioners in
China have their training from earlier on--often from childhood--and
also that they are accustomed to working a heckuva lot harder and
longer than are their US counterparts (sob)... I'd guess that US
schools focus on a smaller part of the whole system simply in order to
make it manageable and accessible to their students! Too bad,
huh--Chinese herbal medicine can do *amazing* things!!!

But I do wonder whether tinctures could ever achieve the same depth and
range of curative powers, compared with potentized medicines? Also,
who would want tincture of... well, we could come up with a number that
we wouldn't want "tincture of", LOL! Which is, as I recall, exactly
the reason that Hahnemann began his dilute-and-succuss journey in the
first place.

But, I would heartily agree, that having a combined understanding of
homeopathy *and* herbal medicine would be ideal!!!! Surely that would
open up a whole section of remedies to more effective use, as well as
giving a whole range of therapeutics to use when available homeopathic
remedies are not sufficient for a case. So I say--Herbs, Yes!!!! (A
different field from homeopathy, but with definite areas of overlap,
and achieving a much broader overlap would no doubt be useful!)
Cheers,
Shannon

[Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD]

My personal use of herbs is in low doses form 5 drops to 30 drops 1-3x/day, a far cry away from what we learn at college, 5mls 3x/day.
A very famous herbalist, Henrietta Kress, once answered a question on a Herbal discussion list: "what is the smallest dose of herbal remedy that would work?" her answer was "one drop if the remedy is well indicated".
Many of the Eclectics and the Physiomedicalists used low doses, if my memory serves me well.
Homeobotanical Medicine uses low doses of herbal remedies at a very low potency, somewhere between 2X and 3C.
And I often do use herbs upon their herbal, clinical or pharmacological indications in low potency, the most famous one being Digitalis, in its allopathic indication, but in potencies between 5x and 12c.
When it comes to herbs, I submit that the indications and actions are a continuum from tincture to high potency depending on the need of the patient.
My musings for this morning anyway..........
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".
Go to www.lulu.com/content/1103716 for my new book "The Handbook of Gemmotherapy"

[prestonfoell]

Dr. Rozencwajg,

Thank you for taking time to post some comments on this issue.

My brief research into how the Eclectics generally used herbs show
that they did, indeed, use low doses as you said. Herbalist/homeopath
Mathew Wood's books speak in reference to Eclectics many times.

More or less, if a practitioner prescribes herbs at such lower doses,
I am assuming that the 'energetic's of the herb is the primary action.
Also, for the herbalists, present and past, who have prescribed in
this fashion---is their case-taking or thinking heavily influenced by
homeopathy?

Dr. Rozencwajg, if I recall, you have extensive knowledge and
experience with acupuncture. Have you studied/practiced Chinese
Herbal Medicine? Do you think that CHM has therapeutic strengths that
perhaps homeopathy does not have? What are your thoughts or possible
examples to where an HERB/mother tincture would be indicated vs. an
homoepathic remedy? Do you believe that herbs can be helpful, while
the homeopath is attempting to find the correct remedy? Other?

Please forgive me for so many questions. Any further comments would
be absolutely wonderful!

Respectfully,

Preston Foell
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD,NMD."
wrote:
1-3x/day,
my memory
patient

[prestonfoell]

Hi Shannon,

Thank you very much for taking time (and considerable at that!) in
helping me answer this question!! You've made some excellent points
to consider. You always provide extraordinary replies to help, and I
do appreciate it!
Kindly,

Preston Foell

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Robert & Shannon Nelson
wrote:
homeopaths
in the
herbs can
private.

[prestonfoell]

Thank you Soroush for taking time to share your thoughts on this
question. I agree mixing would be polypharmacy, which I am not
necessarily for. But I am a strong patient advocate and OM/acu
student, I am attempting to figure out where Chinese Herbal Medicine
lies therapeutically-- can it help when homeopathy can't, and so on.
Perhaps this question that I think of often will never be answered.

I do know that there are homeopaths who began their healing practices
as OM/acupuncturists and then essentially moved to practicing
homeopathy. This could be a sign
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Finrod" wrote:
of the
handful. The
hormone
repair,
Homoeopathy and
regarding
document read
change your
11/09/2007

[Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD]

Herbalists: it depends where they have been trained and by whom. I have seen a trend towards "scientific" herbalism where most of the training is according to phytochemistry (Mills and Bone are the major proponents), with mentions that it often confirms the traditional use; fantastic for my scientific mind but it leaves out experience that cannot be "explained" or "rationally" justified; the training provided by Michel Tierra and Moore is much more oriented towards traditional herbalism with mention of scientific research.......as usual combining both approaches gives you the best result.
The case taking again is dependent on the school and some are very allopathic with disease labels, others are more individualistic.........many herbalists I know in the UK disregard homeopathy totally, but here in NZ there is a convergence that has been happening because of the common political fight for recognition........and because I keep giving talks of each one to the other ones, showing the commonalities, and yes I do take credit for that.........
I am just completing a second round of TCM studies as a refresher and to lead to an OMD........the principles are very different from homeopathy; basically the TCM practitioner aims at resetting the energetic pattern to normal, trusting the vis medicatrix natura to then complete the healing and maintain health,;it is a rebalancing exercise that is very powerful and very profound but not individualized like homeopathy because it relies on regularizing the patterns of energy of the patient, but not the patient himself......I hope I am making myself clear enough.
And Chinese herbalism is very complicated, I must admit I do not use the formulas as taught, but the individual herbs as per specific activity.
I do use a lot of herbal remedies (with a soft spot for Gemmotherapy....) and we had lots of controversy on this and other lists as regarding the purity of homeopathy when using other techniques; let me repeat my approach: I need to provide relief to my patient, that is my commitment, followed by cure, or I need to bring the patient in a state of reactivity that will allow the remedies to work.
Using synergistic techniques and approaches allow for a faster cure and often a softer landing. Certainly in some cases I do not know exactly what cured/ameliorated, but in the majority I do because I know what the action of each component is and I can differentiate the results. For example a patient with adrenal burnout will never react to homeopathy; repair the endocrine system first, the patient will already feel better, the symptoms linked to the adrenal failure will disappear and you will have the real picture in front of you, allowing you to prescribe the proper remedy.
Sounds complicated when compared to the one remedy cure all way of practicing, but in reality it is not, it just needs a little bit more knowledge and your cure rate increases tremendously; that does not mean I do not attempt to have a cure in one remedy when possible, but I am not fixated on it.
Does that answer your questions?
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".
Go to www.lulu.com/content/1103716 for my new book "The Handbook of Gemmotherapy"