Interesting homeopathy discussion at sceptics' website

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Dear Irene

Some homoeopaths make the explanations difficult for people to understand.

These discussions have involved some basic and simple chemistry and physics
ideas and I suggest that if people do not know they educate themselves.
The 'mole' of a complex substance can also be measured by the way is reduces
the freezing point or elevates the boiling point of water.

The orders of magnitude in the dilutions we are talking about are so great
that the differences in 'molecular weights' of different substances become
insignificant.
So in reality, although the 'mole' of Puls (if there was such a beast) would
be much greater than that of hydrogen, a couple of steps of dilution would
take care of it.
Please let us not argue about how many angels can dance on the end of a pin!

Rgds
Soroush

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Dear Luise

Assuming your 2 degree water was now added to 99 ml of medium, your temp
rise would be a fraction of a degree!
You would never get to the 100 degrees because in effect you have diluted
your HEAT.

===========
However, with succussion, it seems that something changes within the whole
of the liquid which is cumulative.

(We know from plussing that with some sensitive patients, just one or two
succussions is enough to make a change)

However, it seems it activates 'something' in a solution that is not easily
explained.

You can try this experiment.

Take two exact bottles of a substance that has an aroma.

Remove similar amount from each bottle.

Replace the cork or stopper.

Succuss one only.

Remove stoppers and compare the aroma!

To me it seems that some thing has changed. How it can be explained, I have
not worked out yet.

Rgds
Soroush

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Dear Irene

I feel I have used up much time of everybody on this issue. But the
position is very simple in my mind. [perhaps I am too simple ) ]

The position of sac lac in the dilution and number of molecules can be
completely ignored - we are not measuring the particle numbers of Sac Lac.

To simplify the argument - let us use Nitric Acid HNO3 (to produce
Nit-ac) - it has a mole of (1 + 7 + 24) 32. Here the as pure a Nitic Acid
is used and based on its concentration it is added to a set amount of water
to produce 1C.

You will therefore note that Avagadro's number will apply.

By similar analogy Avagadro's number will apply to any compound irrespective
of complexity as one is able to calculate its molecular weight by techniques
such a depression of freezing point of water and elevation of boiling point
of water.

I rest my case.

Rgds
Soroush

[Luise Kunkle]

Hi Soroush,
Would that also apply if there were no heat-loss due to environment -
i.e. theoretically? (I am just curious. I tried to figure it out but
found I no longer remember what I learned 40 years ago:-) Is is not
important to the quension on hand - if it is just a fraction of a
degree, my point is even more valid)
Yes. But we have noidea what this "something is", we can just observe
the phenomena.
Has this ever been researched ouside of homeopathy?

In this case perhaps only because by the succussion the particles
of the aromatous substance have been better dispersed in the medium?
After all, change in aroma does not necessarily mean more energy of
those particles.

To summarize what I have been trying to say: we know that certain
phenomena occur that make homeopathy effective, change e.g. a solution
of salt, which we have in most of our foods, so that they become a
potent remedy. We know that by the effect of Na mur. But we cannot
explain it.

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Dear Luise

I assumed that there was no heat loss in response to your question.

What is happening is that you have a small amount of water at 2 degs and you
are adding it to 99 x the amount at 1 degree
All the energy will go to raise the temp of the 99 parts a little while the
one portion will lose most of its energy!

-------

The things we do to material during the process of remedy preparation are
very critical.

Please read on C4, C5, and C6 remedies. These are remedies where the
substance has been triturated 4, 5 or 6 times compared to the normal 3.
It appears that much more energy and depth of action is obtained in this
process.

You can read about it also in Margaret Tylers book - Hom Drug picture -
Chapter on Nat-m, where the lighthouse keeper were asked to triturate to
break their boredom.

Rgds
Soroush

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Dear Erica
Matter is believed to be made up of distinct units called atoms. The smallest is Hydrogen.
For their listing and information on each, please see
http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=per ... s&ct=title

Atoms then join up and produce molecules. For example 2 hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom will join up and will produce a water Molecule. H2O

Different atoms join up together to produce different compounds and each has a different property.

When we have extracts of an organic matter - such as a plant or an animal - then we have multitudes of molecules in a mixture at set proportions.

So when the extract of Puls is taken, it is made up of many molecules. It is not just one molecule.

Therefore you cannot strictly apply and use the term 'molecule of Puls'.

Rgds
Soroush

[Irene de Villiers]

Finrod wrote:

It's a personal opinion of each list member as to whether they want to
understand this basic misuse of Avogadro or not. I'm happy to be
involved for those that do, and the rest have a delete button at their
fingertips:-)
I still feel the conversation is valid in that Avogadro is so
*commonly* misused in homeopathy circles. I simply advocate that we drop
its use in favour of better ideas. there are plenty of them!

We have far more elegant and straightforward ways of explaining the
extreme dilution of homeopathic remedies in potency. "One drop in a size
as big as the plant earth" for 14C for example, is a good way - also a
valid way.

I just have a thing against using an invalid way - and more especially
so when it is patently obvious that most people do not understand it.
Why ADD mystery to homeopathy? Does it not have enough?
If you use Avogadro you need to measure that.
But in homeopathy we do not measure that.
Sorry no it does not.
In homeopathy to call it 1C (one in a hundred) for each 1g weight of
Nit-ac you use 99g weight of water.

In avogadro, you use Nit-ac mole wt of 32 and water mole wt of 16, hence
to get 1 Nit-ac particles in a hundred water particles you need a
proportion of 32g Nit-ac (which has the Avogadro number of particles) to
to (18x99=) 1782g water (which has 99 times as many particles).
That is NOT a homeopathic 1C. It is 1 part Nit-ac to 56 parts water.
You can of course calculate particles by Avogadro in a homeopathic
proportion of 1 in 99, but it is different then for every substabnce
(due to different moles) and so your assumption that Avogadro relates to
any specific potency is all wrong. For Nit-ac there's a factor of 56
where it shoueld be 99 and for each other remedy the factor is also
different. Sometimes vastly different.
So there's no point using Avogadro even where we can calculate moles
based on known elements.
Not true.
You can only use depression of freezing point to calculate molecular
weight of a PURE and SOLID substance IN SOLUTION.
So back to Pulsatilla again:
It's not a pure substance.
It's not a solid (it is part solid, part liquid)
It's not in solution.

So there is no way to use freezing point depression (a very specific
formula with specific requirements) to calculate moles of Pulsatilla (or
any other non-elemental remedy).

Chemists have uses for it - it's for unknown chemicals - but it does not
apply to complex things like plants for example.

And even if it could be made to apply somehow - it still would not be
useful, for the same reasons as with your Nit-ac example above.

Let's agree to use something sensible instead of Avogadro, to describe
very dilute solutions in potent remedies. something that works in all
cases:-)

NAmaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Dear Irene

To measure the 'molecular weight' by depression of Freezing point of water,
you do not need a solid to start off with. So long as you can make a
solution in water, it will work.

On the question of Nitric acid, the factors are dilution are so GREAT that
almost where ever you start from, you will get to the situation that you
soon pass Avagadro's number regarding the number of molecules of Nitric
acid - one step dilution earlier or later - it is really irrelevant.

The point is - as has been asked, can you detect any Nitric acid in the
solution at 12C. The answer is - our present scientific methods show
nothing.

Rgds
Soroush

[Irene de Villiers]

Finrod wrote:

Hi,
The formal definition calls for a solid dissolved in water.

Also, the formula is there to find a molecular weight - which requires a
single substance - it can be a complex chemical substance but has to be
a single substance.
Of course any mixture can not have a molecular weight:-) Most especially
homeopathic remedies can not, as they are not even consistent in their
content. One Pulsatilla may be drier than another Puls plant, or have
more chlorophyll etc.

The purpose of the freezing point depression method of finding a
molecular weight - is to find one for a *chemical* that is not known
(other than that it IS a chemical - not a plant for example - with a
chemical formula comprised of elements of the periodic table).
depending on the potency.....
You do not know where Avogadro's number is passed, so why use it?
You may as well say - it is so dilute that soon you pass the number of
fleas on the neighbour's cat.
It also is an unknown and presumed large number
Equally meaningless in terms of applicability.
That is a FAR more reasonable question to pose.
That is a very reasonable statement to make...
(and thankfully, it does not mention Avogadro and there are no fleas on
it either!)

Namaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."