FIP Kitty

[muthu kumar]

Irene - it was very interesting to read the posts though I have never
kept cats and know nothing of FIP till now...

But from what I saw here and from a casual browsing of the web a few
questions and thoughts-

1) You posted that your success rate is close to 50% which seems to be
excellent. I saw that once symptoms have appeared 95% is fatal. In
general is your approach individualistic or is there any nosode or
something that you use for all cases?

Since steroids and antibiotics seem to hasten the disease have they
been effective in potencies?

I noticed that the FIP Vaccine also has a hastening ( controbversial?)
effect in an already infected case would that be helpful in potencies?

2)If this were a human case I would definitely consider medicines that
would be needed for tuberculosis- Tuberculinum, Nat.sulph ( abd. TB
as per knerr), Hepar, Iod. Have you found any of these effective? Has
Tuberculinum as a nosode been effective? Ars. iod is another medicine
that might be considered in a dropsy in a tubercular background. Has
that been tried and of any use.

3)I have come across Aur.met, Aur.mur, Aur.nat frequently for Ascites,
abd tumors - have you used them before?

4) Is there a nosode with Coronavirus and has that been tried? Also
with any thing else that causes a "similar" clinical picture for
example - cryptococcosis? I do not know if there is a nosode out of that-

5) Another remedy that is freq. mentioned is Anthracinum ( and also
related to Ars). Is that of any use?

In a brief pathological repertorization I could see Graph, Carbo.v,
Helleborus, Mercur.dulcis, Phos recurring. Any experience with them in
this?
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Irene de Villiers wrote:
as FIP
selection
good
you
advise
am in

[Luise Kunkle]

Hi Irene,

The way I understand what you say below there would be certain
features of the disease that just would have to be part of the remedy
picture, in any and all cases.

This would mean that a certain number of remedies are excluded right
from the start - and that again would mean that there is a certain
number of remedies left, among which we have to differentiate.

If that is so: couldn't you give us those remedies. I am sure that
e.g. myself would find it very hard to rep the case from the start,
although I have studied your previous posts on the matter.

I would send this as a pm asking you for those "left over remedies" as
a private favour - but I think that others on this list may be equally
interested.

Regards

Luise
If that is right
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

[Irene de Villiers]

hahnemannian2002 wrote:

Hi.......(sorry did not find your name on emails so far),
Thanks for writing.
Not many people actually know much about FIP. Most vets have an old vet
school view and most owners are victims of that and of the approach of
throwing prednisone at anything the profession does not know how to fix.

There are three forms of FIP - I want to mention that as they are
significantly different - and the one we are talking about is only one
of them - called "wet" or "effusive" FIP.
It is the only form in which there is accumulation of leaked blood
plasma in the body cavity - either lower abdomen or (worse) upper
abdomen or (still worse) both. It's usually the fastest killer of the
three, so one needs to move fast. "Dry Fip" is sometimes harder to rep
and "neurological FIP" is a real bear to handle (I suspect because it
takes ages to repair brain and nerves and the serious seizure activity
is no help.)
I'll try to answer.
Yes any success with it is still a bit of a miracle. I had my first
success in early 2003 after some in depth study on the new research and
pathology. It caused a subtle change in approach which made the
difference - I found I needed to stress the loss of vital fluid and the
matter of dehydration despite loads of fluid effusion. After all the
blood vessels all leaked out so THEY are short of fluid and dehydrated.
That change in perception was quite important I think.
Yes - well more like 100% in allopathic terms.
The only claim of survival is 4 older cats in Japan out of 12 in a
study. Nobody will answer me on how long they lived or whether they
regained real health or just survived the study.
I know of a single case using herbs that survived - someone wrote to me
about it with a few details but did not respond when more info was
requested.
It's individualistic but with some common principles:
The repertorizing is completely from scratch and most important in each
case. However it is valid that some rubrics occur in a majority of cases
(though not all). What I find is that maybe the most used remedy if
there is such a thing )and it is by a hair) is Cinchona officianalis.
It's at least 2% of cases.
The rest are completely unpredictable on simillimum - all depending on
what kind of stresses triggered the FIP.

So the principle here is to find the mind symptoms that are the trigger
for the mutation of corona to FIP under stress. I seek out the stress
response. Usually the CAUSE of the stress is easy to find - such as
vaccinations and drugs combined with early weaning, early surgery and
moving house - those are the standard causes. Ocasionally the cause is
bullying by another cat with some human adding to the trauma - or some
other severe stress. But the seevre stress is not so relevant I find.
It's the cat's response to it that matters.

For example in a current case, the kitten's history involves the owner
throwing things at it and yelling at it - causing fear so the kitten was
shaking like a jelly - and getting diarrhea from fear - which in turn
was followed by multiple harsh drugs by the vet for the "bad breeding
causing intestinal IBD". All this and the kitten is a sensitive Phos
type. I DO find that knowing the constitutional type is a good way to
understand the response of the kitten.....Wet Fip often is in young kittens.
But FIp takes time to develop, several months - and a second owner
had the kitten for months before it showed symptoms. The cat hid from
all and sundry - till it's best friend kitten was confined in different
room as it was ill with something. The FIp kitten for the first time
came out of its self-imposed confinement to be with the other kitten.
An odd item - The kitten walks and stands with rear legs bent.

These facts gave me:
MIND - FEAR - misfortune, of - losing something of great value
MIND - AILMENTS FROM - emotions
MIND - AILMENTS FROM - mental shock; from
RECTUM - DIARRHEA - accompanied by - Intestines - weakness of
EXTREMITIES - FLEXED - Lower limbs
GENERALS - MEDICINE - allopathic - abuse of

which points quite clearly to Secale Cornutum.
All I did then was to check that the FIP-specific symptoms of THIS case
are somewhere in Sec - such as:
ABDOMEN - DISTENSION - tympanitic (not always tympanitic)
BACK - ATROPHY - Spine - Muscles
GENERALS - EMACIATION - progressive (not always the case)
GENERALS - DRYNESS of usually moist internal parts

All clearly confirmed Sec for this case.
Yet it is the first Sec case after 300 cases.
I've had a hard job even getting hold of them but lately have tried Pred
30C in a few cases. So far one success, one not, and a current case is
super-sensitive to the Pred 30c even in 3 dilution cups.
I only use it where pred was given to the cat before it came my way.
I would not use it otherwise.
To me it would be like saying just because snake poison makes people
sicker, one should always use potentised snake poison.
I feel it needs to be a matching remedy, so I use Pred when I know there
has been pred damage - in the hope of reversing the damage of recent
pred use. (It wrecks the thymus and I find the thymus essential to make
Th-1 cytokines towards overcoming the FIP - my personal theory based on
my immunopharmacology studies and experience with FIP - no specific
research.)
FIP vaccine is a literally brainless idea:-))
Think of it this way:
FIP is a disease in which FIP antibodies destroy the cat.
Giving the cat a vaccine to *increase* antibodies to kill the cat makes
how much sense????
In practice what the FIP vaccine does, is to pre-charge the cat with
self-killer antibody so that IF it mutates FIP, it will kill the cat
that much faster.
In addition - the skewing of the immune system that occurs with ALL
vaccines to tH-2 - is a prerequisite for any Th-2 chronic disease
including FIP - so now it is not only ready to go fast with FIP - but
also predisposed to actually get it. So the next mutation to FIP from
ubiquitous corona virus in the gut, will have zero defence from the cat
whose Th-1 macrophage defence is now missing - and whose antibodies to
HELP FIP destroy it - are all ready to aim and fire!
No vet worth his salt will touch that vaccine with a bargepole - but
sadly there are some who do not understand FIP kills using antibodies:-)

I DO use the FIP/FeLV/FIV combination nosode in 30c with FIP cases. I do
not know if it helps once the FIP is really active. (I've tried FIP 200C
and that is too specific to use AFTER infection (too isode?), I see no
benefit and have stopped suggesting it. The 30C combination one though
DOES help when a kitten is in very early stage and uses it - that has
chased the illness each time.
So I suggest it in all FIP cases as an "extra". I see the simillimum as
the main remedy however.
I've had an Iod case - the cat in question was hyperthyroid before
getting FIP.
Because the TRUE simillimum has to do with the mentals mainly - and the
FIp issues secondarily - it's not IMO possible to guess a genus
epidemicus if you like - at least not in my experience though if I was
forced to "try something" with no repping available I'd try China.

Has

See that's part of the misunderstanding with FIP.
Also a problem if one does repping "from the wrong end" - the physicals.
This fluid is NOT dropsy.
Dropsy involves CELL fluid leaking into the interstitial spaces between
the cells. It is not loss of blood plasma into the body cavity.
Usually there is zero dropsy in this illness. If anything there is
dehydration.
So I think a dropsy approach is incorrect here.
Off hand I know I have used one of the Aur's but do not remember which
one. And I think it was in a "dry" FIp case not a wet one. Sorry - can't
be sure off hand.
I do not use Ascites as a rubric - because again that is not blood
plasma leaking. Ascites is failure of normal cellular fluid to be
returned where it belongs so that it accumulates where it does not
belong. FIP fluid is leaked blood plasma through compromised blood
vessel walls - it is not a lymph or circulatory issue of transport - but
of leaking.
Better options are:
GENERALS - BLOOD VESSELS - complaints of
GENERALS - DISTENSION blood vessels
GENERALS - INFLAMMATION - Blood vessels
GENERALS - INFLAMMATION - Blood vessels - Veins
GENERALS - LOSS - fluids, of

But I use these AFTER I look for mentals that are the disease trigger.
Remedies do not come up over and over again in this. They seem to be all
over the place and I think it is because the mind causes can be anything
perceived by the cat under stress.
That's a wide field!
As above.
Don't know of anything that causes a similar picture.
Malaria comes to mind as some cats have a severe remittant fever with
lassitude and weakness - and indeed China is the most common WET FIP
remedy if you can call one common.
I do not see it as similar.
I have not seen it come up yet - but the current Sec case is interesting
in that Sec is also a possible Anthrax remedy if I rememebr rightly.
Ars is useful in terminal cases where recovery is not going to happen
and palliation is needed.
Not much - A Merc sol case yes - and CArbo-v in collapse as a "starter"
remedy - but I do not start with pathology - I start with mentals then
"check" if the pathology is covered.
To me mentals are alwasys the biggest part of a case.

But I am interested - what rubrics did you use in your pathological rep?
NAmaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

Luise Kunkle wrote:

Hi Louise,
There are some features that are common - but there are no current
rubrics for them as far as I can tell. I think that's what has made this
illness so hard to handle by homeopathy for so long. We do not have an
"equivalent" human disease to use for rubrics either.

What's common is the pathology:

* Virus attacks cat instead of replicating itself.
What rubric is there?
There is no coverage of "auto-immune" issues for example.

* Blood vessel walls leak out the plasma but not the blood cells.
Rubics?
Here there are quite a few options but none is directly relevant so it
has to be non-exclusionary and just a guideline IF present:
GENERALS - BLOOD VESSELS - complaints of
GENERALS - DISTENSION blood vessels
GENERALS - DRYNESS of usually moist internal parts
GENERALS - INFLAMMATION - Blood vessels
GENERALS - INFLAMMATION - Blood vessels - Veins
GENERALS - LOSS - fluids, of

* Fever is in some cases, not others and the type of fever varies, but
is usually remittent or constant when it is there. But it may be low
fever or hectic fever. It's a side effect ofhow fast the illness is
progressing and an indication of life force to fight back, more than a
direct illness issue here.
So what I usually do for the fever is handle it separately with Ferrum
phos to "give oxygen" to help the body to handle what it is handling.
I choose 30C or 200C depending on life force and fever severity - make
aqueous and dose in quick succession with succussion between doses -
like 5 or 10 doses but stop as soon as fever *starts* to drop.
I see this as appropriately supportive first aid as the fever is not
from infection per se, but from stress overload while fighting back.

However if it is remittant or has other characteristics, I do rep that
as well in the simillimum repping.

* emaciation is common.
But it does not eliminate all that many remedies - and it is not always
present.

* Most cases with emaciation have lost muscle around the spine so the
following rubric looks really nifty:
BACK - ATROPHY - Spine
Seems like a nice one - but from experience it is too small (18 rems) to
be all that helpful, and many remedies matching cases with this feature,
are not in this rubric. Lyc comes to mind for example.
I wish.
I can not use anything as an elimination rubric here.
Nothing is consistent enough in a big enough rubric to cover all cases.
Maybe GENERALS - EMACIATION cold be eliminative in most cases - but I am
leery of any elimination remedy in this illness.
In kittens this one is often relevant:
GENERALS - EMACIATION - appetite with emaciation; ravenous - children; in
Sorry
I just do not think that would work.
I see it as better to choose the top three mentals, one general and one
specific and see what comes up.
THEN add the rest and see what moves where in the list.
Ah - if I had a list I'd love it.
And it would go on my website to help as many kitties as possible.
Maybe I'm not so smart - but I still have to do each one from scratch.
Or maybe it's just my approach - I always do every rep from scratch:-)
Tedious and time consuming - but I sleep better at night:-))))

What I will share is that I find it helpful to add in the constitutional
remedy and so I am getting some practise at figuring that out for cats
even if they are deathly ill. If I find it I use it 200C intercurrently
with the simillimum. It seems to give good "background support" in
severe illness.

For example in a Sulph case in a Lyc constitution cat - I started the
Sulph 30C, and tossed in the Lyc 200C once every 2nd day aqueous.
In the current Sec case, the cat is a Phos type and will get that
intercurrently.

I also use some supplements and nutrition - matched to the individual
and what organs are compromised previously or first etc.
It's a very intensive case to get right, this FIP - it's not just a
matter of finding Simillimum and that's all that's needed.
The client needs to do intensive nursing and feeding - which may be
impossible if they are away all day at work - as the average FIP cat can
not eat unaided - but needs food several times a day.

I lose several cases because the vet will not co-operate when they think
someone is trying to "save" a "hopeless" FIP cat which is "dead already,
just moving still". So there are times for example that the fluid needs
to be drained off to play for time (else it damages kidneys or squashes
the lungs and other organs) - and you would not believe the excuses vets
make to not do this, without actually saying they will not do it (though
some do say it). Cats then die needlessly - and it is so frustrating all
round. The rare vet who co-operates and even hers my suggestions on how
the draining needs to be done for FIP (warmth, big enough needle,
slowly, Aco 200c before and after, MUST seal the hole closed etc.) - is
such a pleasure - but it's like looking for hen's teeth to find such a vet.

Hope something here is helpful.
Namaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[muthu kumar]

Irene-

Thanks for the excellent answers and details about how you approach
these cases. It is interesting that you are using a mind-centric
approach to these cases and with good results.

I was using rubrics like Ascites because I usually tend to think that
if this same case were to be treated by a homeopath 100 - 150 years
ago what would have they done - since most of our works refer to that
period and so remedies are likely to be in those rubrics that they
would have thought. Since we know what the current pathology we might
get more out of the blood vessel rubrics from current provings may be
but still cross referencing it with ascites etc. might be needed as
that is where some of those belonging to the blood vessel distension
etc. might be included based on the understanding at that period.
Still your point on dehydration is very well taken.
I was referring to an online version of Merck Manual for Vets to learn
about FIP and that is where they had mentioned that cryptococcus as
one of the differential diagnosis. That is why I asked if that would
be effective as nosode.
In my "pathological" repertorization I was using tuberculosis (
abdominal), pleural effusion, tumors, ascites etc. I still work
manually and rely more on Knerr and Boericke.

Usually I gather remedies by using relevant pathological concomitants.
There may not be one disease condition similar to the current one on
hand when we repertorize. But a combination of 2 or more conditions in
the repertory gives us a group of remedies that might cover the
presenting picture. Knerr's repertory especially is rich in such
concomitants of various pathologies. This approach is useful if we
could not get good mental symptoms or if they are suspect ( as in
brain pathology etc) or to develop a genus epidemicus.

Thanks for your explanations and more success to your efforts-
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Irene de Villiers wrote:
cases
was
kittens.
Pred
there
potencies?
I do
200C
physicals.
can't
but
all
anything
interesting

[Luise Kunkle]

Hi Irene,

Thank you - yes, it may turn out to be useful.

One answer begets the next question:-)

Do you have any material, based on your own experience (from scratch
or confirming some author) of what you would consider a
"Phosphorus/Sulphur etc. cat?
Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========