re: OT: the raw food debate for cats

[Luise Kunkle]

Hi Irene and counter-pointers,
I should say it is impossible for me, in Germany, to get fresh-frozen
mice that are still fresh-frozen when I get them -and I really do no
know how I could breed mice in my small apartment (even if I could
kill them or watch my cat do so;-)

As far as freshness of other meat is concerned I agree that it
probably is not fresh enough. My cat will not eat it raw. I always
wondered why.

Irene:The cat food you suggested I probably also cannot get. I am
going to look at the sites you listed to see whether any of the brands
I can get are up to the mark (to the counter-pointers: as some of you
may have noticed, Irene is not my "guru" -- but I do appreciate long
and careful research into a matter!)

I wish to second Sandra - can you, Irene, suggest a recipe for
home-cooking (for freezing in small, daily batches) food that will
provide the nutrients cat needs and which leaves out the stuff it does
not need esp. those that are harmful? From ingredients that are
available?

I tried to find something at your site, but did not. If you have
already given a recipe in your "catwell" group, just let me know and
I'll sign up there.

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

[Mary Salvador]

Hi Kathy
I have a 7 year old English Bulldog, she has been eating raw food since she was 5 months old. She loves chicken wings.......the things people say....sigh.....I was told not to walk her, the breed doesn't need walking and is even bad for them......I had to laugh out loud at that one.....Panda walks everyday and has outlived her mother by 2 years.....
Do your research, don't take what anyone says as gospel (except Magda), many have it right......but it never hurts to learn.
Mary Salvador
****
I was always told that chicken bones splinter and should not be given to
dogs. When I purchased maggie (english bulldog) I was told not to give
her bones because her breed should not have them.

[Mary Salvador]

I forgot to add that Ginny also is very knowledgeable.....read, read and do more reading....It is a very large step for most people....but once you see the difference you won't look back.
Mary Salvador
************
Do your research, don't take what anyone says as gospel (except Magda), many have it right......but it never hurts to learn.
Mary Salvador

[cyndiann]

On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 18:43:03 -0500, Mary Salvador
wrote:
I take exception to your exception. I've found Magda is not God and makes
mistakes just like the rest of us. Matter of fact, I decided not to use
Magda for my own pets because I feel she tends to see things one way, hers.

Since joining this group I've had the opportunity to see other points of
view that I feel are at least as valuable and authentic.

Cyndi

[Mary Salvador]

Hi Cyndi
Then take exception...that is your prerogative....like I said...read, read and do more reading.....you make your own decisions, we all have to make our own decisions base on what knowledge we have acquired. I just happen to think that she has it right. enough said...this is off topic as it is without flaming.
Mary Salvador
******************
I take exception to your exception. I've found Magda is not God and makes
mistakes just like the rest of us. Matter of fact, I decided not to use

[Irene de Villiers]

ginny wilken wrote:

Dogs take 2 weeks min to learn to eat a new food.
Cats take 4 weks min.
So introduce new foods a little at a time replacing current with new. Do
not change the food suddenly.
NOT raw for cats - you damage their eye sight and their heart health
even you personally can not SEE that.
cooked
Not pork. The fats are inflamamtory and you risk fatty liver disease in
cats. Cats do not hunt pigs - it's a good guide to what's good.
Dogs maybe, not cats.
You risk kidney disease, fatty liver disease.
Maybe some constitutional types will survive without obvious disease -
but I like to think nutrition is about health not survival.
I agree with that.
Bone has to be raw. Cooked bone is brittle.
One option is to get a whole chicken, remove the bones and organs - cook
the outside of the meat only, leaving the meat raw inside, then add back
the organs and bones.
Also add:
Cooked pumpkin for carotene
Rice bran to feed intestinal bacteria, plus acidophilus capsules and
PABA (BActeria need PABA initially to start making a gut colony - and
later make their own)
Taurine to cater for time between slaughter and cooking, 250 to 500mg
per pound.
Four caps of fish oil and 400 or 1000 IU vit E.
Some nori sheets (1 at least) to provide trace elements.
Coarse-grind this all and freeze it in ice cube trays - then put the
cubes in closed containers, to thaw and serve one per meal, several tiem
a day.

That's a safe home made option that has good balance.
You can vary the protein according to what is available.
If cats do not like it initially, add a can or two of Hills a/d paste
food with equal amount of water to it - that usual;l;y does the trick.
Then gradually reduce that when it is no longer needed.
But so are raw meat surfaces,, garlic, alfalfa, yucca and the things I
have been listing as wrong for cat. The principle is the same - and it
applies to missing nutrients as well as wrong present ones:-)

Worse still is a LACK of proper gut nutrients for example - the ones to
feed the gut bacteira, without which clostridium is a SERIOUS health
issue. Those gut contents of prey are as essential to cats as veg and
fruit are to people:-)
They are not just a maybe thing - they are essential to carnivore
metabolism. Cats and dogs.
Whose cats?
(I did not see anyone's cats or ages quoted.)
There's a lot that goes into feline longevity - not only nutrition, but
it sure is part of it.
If you are referring to me - I've been working with cats since I was
seven and have had a very good cat health list since the 90s some time;
published a peer-reviewed cat publication; have had experience breeding
cats healthily for longer than some list members have been on the
planet, have studied genetics as well as biological sciences and know
how to select and use the good information from all the sciences towards
improving cat health. (And from email lists if I find any!)
I've been doing it for many decades for for ten generations of the
same lines of cats - have helped breeders develop healthy catteries for
40 years, and specialize in cats in general, as well as supporting my
clients and their cats' health. So I thank you for the suggestion - but
I *give* lessons - and they are based on solid information.
I learn new things from scientific sources and homeopathy, not
rumours and unsubstantiated opinion that "does the rounds" on email lists.
I've seen nothing to refute anything I've said so far, but please feel
free to present anything you can find in that regard and I'll be happy
to debate it sensibly.
I'm always on the lookout for new infromation:-)

You've made claims with no back-up data - all of which I have heard many
times before - investigated thoroughly and found wanting.
Sorry - copying what "goes around" is not convincing at all.
In fact it is weird to me how passionate the "raw feed" community is in
the face of research to the contrary. Apparently sticking to raw is
important to these folks regardless what research shows - and without
any back-up data being needed by them to support their passionate
position. Just a theory that flies in the face of solid research.
I do not work that way.

Namaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

Youlia Anderson wrote:

Some of us have more stringent criteria for something as important as
nutrition. To me common sense is not enough, and I look for more.

ONE statistic I like is the lack of *any* chronic disease.

Namaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

Luise Kunkle wrote:

Smart kitty.
I'm not sure if it's in Germany or not - there are 7 languages on the
packaging - German in one. The manufacturer has an email somewhere on
their website to ask them about it. It's propacpetfood.com. They are not
great at email responses but get back to you eventually (I bug them till
they do.)
Other USA options that are less toxic and closer to good (nothing on the
market is perfect by any stretch!) is Nutro Max kitten (not Nutro
NAtural Choice), MAxximum kitten (sometimes at Walmart) and Annamaet.
Everything else here in USA is lower down the list on meeting
requirements.
You must have read my mind - I just included one in an earlier email today.
I give a checklist there are what to look for. I live in hope that some
manufacturer will get their act together:-)) And in the archives I must
have commented a hundred foods by now - one can search the archives...
I've sent suggested recipes there but don't think I put one in the files
section.
I tend to individualize. Most people only make it if their cat is ill
and needs a special diet, such as for diabetes, hyperthyroid, HCM or
whatever - in which case I'll tune it to the needs.

Namaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

ginny wilken wrote:Yes, it's true your

AND genotype.
A bulldog is no wolf, and does not have the same nutritional needs as a
wolf....regardless which species of wolf you are referring to - and they
vary )

The DOG research applies however.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Shannon Nelson]

Hi Irene,
Do you see a problem with feeding the "kitten" formula to adult cats?
Mine get decidedly tubby if I let them (that is, if I leave the food
out all day)...
Thanks,
Shannon