re: OT: the raw food debate for cats

[rigleyman]

I came into this discussion a bit late but I want to add one important thing that I focus on.
Dry cat or dog food is heated - no matter what the base ingredients were - organic, natural or 4-D meats - and no matter what level of preservatives - chemical, natural or the use of the dry concept and air-tight bags. Dry food has been cooked and that alone in my mind - is of concern.
Our cats and dogs evolved in a form designed to eat raw food. Their systems need it to function optimally. Their teeth and gums need it to stay clean and help maintain health. I would argue that although some kibble can attempt to approximate the nutrients we think are provided by good diet - nothing can substitute for wholesome, fresh raw food in the manner it is found in a whole animal.
The argument can be made that in the wild - the animal would kill and eat immediately - especially cats, but research has shown that lots of carnivores don't eat immediately - even the wild cats. They store meat in trees, bury it for later and this is done even in tropical climates .
I would further argue that mice- a very natural food for all small felines- raised in the most natural manner possible- killed humanely and instantly flash-frozen would maintain most of the nutrients - far more in my mind than a cooked dry food of any type that relies upon artificial vitamins and minerals to "balance" it. Meat just doesn't maintain the same nutrients and has different bio-availability when cooked even at low temperatures.
Frankly nothing in our society these days is ideal for captive animals (or us) but for me - it makes no sense that dry, cooked mixtures that are mostly grain or carbohydrates would make a better diet for a species that has been designated as an obligate carnivore!
Judy Asarkof

[Luise Kunkle]

Hi Judy et al,

Can we use just a teeny weeny bit of common sense in this discussion?

Where people can get freshly killed or frozen freshly-killed mice for
their cats plus grasshoppers etc. that cats snack on - well I am ready
to agree that this may be the best food.

But this question is completely irrelevant for 99,9.. percent of cat
owners - we cannot get it.

Second best may or may not be freshly-killed meat of other animals or
meat freshly-frozen. This also the great majjority of us cannot get.

So the relevant question is what is 3rd or fourth-best.

Those of you who do not agree with Irene - please make suggestions
that we can follow!

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

[Tanya Marquette]

everyone can get what judy is suggesting. there are companies
that sell fresh frozen kill that they will ship on a regular basis
if one wants. i purchase about 20# of fresh organic meats
for my 2 cats locally from a small deli. otherwise i would be
ordering. you can get anything from mice to venison over the
internet.

tanya
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[LMGibson]

Visit: www.rawmeatybones.com as a start.

Can’t offer any advice in the UK other than grocery store meat. There are several manufacturers of raw meaty bones all neatly packaged in a box for purchase. Most mfg want to add veggies to satisfy the consumer that believes all cats and dogs need them. However Bravo! At www.bravorawfood.com offers a meat and bone without veggies. No grains and no fillers. Their food is flash frozen to preserve freshness. If I had to go out and catch my dogs’ food, I am afraid I would not feed raw either. There are alternatives if you really want to feed raw. www.naturesvariety.com also provides a meat and bone product without veggies.
Hope this helps.
Laura Gibson

Furrst Place K-9 Obedience & Bed and Biscuit

www.ProfessionalDogObedienceTraining.com

eMail: gibson@wt.net

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________________________________

From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Luise Kunkle
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 8:34 AM
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] re: OT: the raw food debate for cats
Hi Judy et al,

Can we use just a teeny weeny bit of common sense in this discussion?

Where people can get freshly killed or frozen freshly-killed mice for
their cats plus grasshoppers etc. that cats snack on - well I am ready
to agree that this may be the best food.

But this question is completely irrelevant for 99,9.. percent of cat
owners - we cannot get it.

Second best may or may not be freshly-killed meat of other animals or
meat freshly-frozen. This also the great majjority of us cannot get.

So the relevant question is what is 3rd or fourth-best.

Those of you who do not agree with Irene - please make suggestions
that we can follow!

Regards

Luise
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[cyndiann]

On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 09:33:35 -0500, Luise Kunkle wrote:
You can buy them online at many places.
http://www.rodentpro.com/index.asp
http://www.themousefactory.com/

Many pet stores carry them live and frozen as well/
All supermarkets have fresh meat. Supermarkets are worldwide. There are
also places online that you can buy meat as well.
I think I just did!
Cyndi

[Sandra]

What does anyone think of the food that just came out in March called Market Select made by Meow Mix, in little cups? It's supposed
to be real meat and fish with vegetable oil and supplemented with vitamins.

Thanks,
Sandra
Hi Judy et al,

Can we use just a teeny weeny bit of common sense in this discussion?

Where people can get freshly killed or frozen freshly-killed mice for
their cats plus grasshoppers etc. that cats snack on - well I am ready
to agree that this may be the best food.

But this question is completely irrelevant for 99,9.. percent of cat
owners - we cannot get it.

Second best may or may not be freshly-killed meat of other animals or
meat freshly-frozen. This also the great majjority of us cannot get.

So the relevant question is what is 3rd or fourth-best.

Those of you who do not agree with Irene - please make suggestions
that we can follow!

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

[cyndiann]

On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 10:33:43 -0500, LMGibson wrote:

However Bravo! At HYPERLINK

Correct link is http://www.bravorawdiet.com/

[Irene de Villiers]

rigleyman@aol.com wrote:

SMALL cats only - hence their Jacobsen's organ. Large cats are designed
for carrion. Small cats' health *depends* on fresh kill.
No, not by any of the small cats.
Domestic cats are descended from Felis lybica, the African desert cat,
which has no tropical range. Either way it does NOT store meat, can't
afford to as it does health damage the cat is not designed to handle.
It DOES pay to read research and not use speculation about what some
lion did somewhere in the tropics on this matter:-)

Ever wonder why our domestic cats get so much kidney disease?
(It's the leading medical cause of death - comes third overall after
cars and dogs.)
It all has to do with the inappropriate food they get these days. Too
many toxins, not fresh enough, wrong source of protein - etc.
Yes but have you seen the price for Mice on ice:
http://www.miceonice.com/
(These are disease free mice and rats you can buy frozen, and pay for
the privilege - and the shipping cost of frozen food delivered frozen)

I only know one person who breeds mice for her cats. It sure does great
thigns for health - but it's not a practicable solution for the majority
of cat owners.
Based on what research do you say this?
In fact there are several missing nutrients in meat, cooked or not:-)
Meat is designed to provide protein and minerals and those do not
degrade with cooking.
Which nutrients are you worried about in meat? Please be specific.

Meat for cats only needs the surface cooked to remove the deleterious
enzymes put there by putrefactive bacteria after slaughter. The inside
of the meat will not grow bacteria.
Which is why my suggestion for ProPAc kitten dried food is based on
"best available" to the majority of clients.
NOBODY advocated those; on the contrary I agree they are awful and that
is is VERY hard to find a good dry food:
The food I suggested is 34% protein (from chicken fish and egg), 22%
fat, 10% moisture, and 34% carbs. 34% is not "most" of the food.


Namaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

Sandra wrote:

If you can point me to an ingredients list I'd be happy to comment.

For starters, vegetable oil is not good, too inflammatory. Cats need
fish oil. Does it contain carrageenan or guar gum? Most canned foods for
cats do have it. (They block nutrient absorption.)

NAmaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

cyndiann wrote:

It's at least two weeks old actually - meat is "hung" after slaughter
to be drained and aged before using it...
It's fresh enough for species like ourselves which have the mechanisms
to detox the results. Not so for domestic cats who are designed to
travel light and hunt solo, eating on the run.
Beef is also not ideal amino acid ratios for small cats - chicken
and fish are better. (Ever seen your pussycat stalking the cows?)
There's no fresh-slaughtered chicken in the supermarket either.

I've not suggested what I did without YEARS of investigation and work on
what is avaialable. It's not simple off the cuff notion of mine:-)
It is NOT an easy thing to find an acceptable food for our pets.
On my Catwell list - I work at it constantly....

NAmaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."