re: OT: the raw food debate for cats

[Kathleen Ramsey]

There is still the point that some of us don't want to feed our pets RAW
MEAT. I have 7 cats and 2 dogs, I would go broke buying the flash frozen
stuff. I need something I can make up in batches and keep in the fridge
for a couple of days worth at a time. I am pretty sure my english bulldog
was never in the wild eating whole animals she chokes on stuff. Kathy

[Youlia Anderson]

Those of you who do not agree with Irene - please make suggestions
that we can follow!

Regards

Luise
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Here is a good site to read:
http://www.rawfedcats.org/
There is also a yahoo group for people who feed raw to their cats, unfortunately I don`t have a link, maybe somebody else does.
Youlia Anderson
PennTerra`s Kerry Blues
http://www.furrytaleceramics.com/kerry.html
_http://www.furrytaleceramics.com/kerry.html,___

[Ginny Wilken]

Second, third and fourth best is any meat you would use in your own cooking. Cats are hard to switch but easy to supply, as they eat relatively little, and very carefully. Raw small or large fishes, pork, beef, lamb, goat, horse, poultry - anything that walked, swam, or flew is good food for carnivores. Make sure they get a bit (@10%) of organs, and some consumable bone from the smaller critters. Balance is over time, so not everything has to be in every meal.

If, as Judy eloquently said, you truly recognize the carnivorous obligation of cats, you will understand that inappropriate foods are anywhere from poisonous to subtly disabling over time. The ages she quotes for her cats unimpress most raw feeders; we believe her cats are still quite unhealthy and impaired by lack of proper nutrients and the presence of totally inappropriate compounds. There are many among us whose cats live well up into their 20's, and "special needs cats" with chronic disease which are generally considered life-shortening are also achieving far more normal lifespans. This is the ONLY reason we harp on the subject so much; we have seen the results, and don't need science to back them up.

If you want to investigate and ask of other cat owners, there are groups available, the sheer numbers and experiences that you will find in which completely refute the conclusions presented.

ginny
All stunts performed without a net!

[Ginny Wilken]

Firstly, once you realize the nature of a carnivore and its requirements, you might be able to put your fears and prejudices away, and deal with the obligation to feed it properly. Yes, it's true your bulldog is a product of breeding the shape a certain phenotype. However, all the same genes are still in there, and the food requirements still the same as in wolves. A few generations and sixty-odd years of feeding invented crap in a bag does not change the genotype. That said, your bulldog's special needs can be met creatively, and our lists are full of experienced and creative raw feeders, including bulldog owners.

If you don't want to feed your carnivore properly, you should have a different sort of pet, perhaps.
ginny
All stunts performed without a net!

[Kathleen Ramsey]

I know hundreds of animal owners that don't feed raw, they actually think
I am a bit off by cooking for my pets, and that concept is new to me. I
was a kibble feeder until recently.

Do your animals live longer then others? What statistics do you have to
prove this is a better way of feeding. My animals live long healthy
lives, way past the average and none have ever eaten raw meat. I am not
opposed to that diet. One of my cats is almost 20 and has never been to
the vet and has always eaten purina cat chow. I just don't think it is
the only way to have a healty pet.

It all comes down to cost and convenience for me. Can you make raw up in
batches? When we travel how does that work? It is not always black and
white. Like you said sometimes you have to be very creative. I give
canned salmon and mackeral that is raw right, I do boil the chicken and
debone it so that is not and I brown the ground meat hamburger or turkey.
It keeps longer in the fridge in batches cooked. Max our outside dog gets
bones but maggie can not eat bones.

Regarding this comment " If you don't want to feed your carnivore
properly, you should have a different sort of pet, perhaps."

This is back to the I am right and you are wrong attitude, there is a
happy medium to everything. We need to be realistic, I practice in a
community of very poor people and they are lucky they can affort cheap
kibble for their pets more less meat for their human family members.

Kathy

[Youlia Anderson]

I know hundreds of animal owners that don't feed raw, they actually think
I am a bit off by cooking for my pets, and that concept is new to me. I
was a kibble feeder until recently.
-----------------------
Yes, I know them too, what can I say, there are people who think vaccinating their animals annually and pouring pesticides on them is a wonderful thing and it makes them responsible owners.There are people, and probably majority of them, who follow their vet`s advice and never think for themselves.This is unfortunate but true.Doesn`t mean it is right.
------------------------

Do your animals live longer then others? What statistics do you have to
prove this is a better way of feeding. My animals live long healthy
lives, way past the average and none have ever eaten raw meat. I am not
opposed to that diet. One of my cats is almost 20 and has never been to
the vet and has always eaten purina cat chow. I just don't think it is
the only way to have a healty pet.
----------------
I don`t really need statistic, it is just a common sense, really. A carnivore designed to eat flesh of a prey animal, this is a very definition of a carnivore, won`t you agree? Maybe you got lucky with the animals you own, or maybe because you don`t vaccinate or use Homeopathy on them they live long lives, but it makes them rather an exemption . I know lots of dog owners who lost their dogs due to illnesses at an early age and I also know lots of dogs who need constant vet attention to keep them alive.There are people who smoke two packs a day and still live in their eighties, doesn`t make the habit healthy.I used to feed kibble(briefly) and used to cook for my dogs, although I always supplemented with raw meat and eggs. Then I switched to completely raw and I see the difference.So I tried all type of feeding and raw is the best ,in my opinion. There are other 7000 members of rawfeeding list who also saw a wonderful changes in their animals, so I am not the only one.You really can`t say until you try.
---------------------------
It all comes down to cost and convenience for me. Can you make raw up in
batches? When we travel how does that work? It is not always black and
white. Like you said sometimes you have to be very creative. I give
canned salmon and mackeral that is raw right, I do boil the chicken and
debone it so that is not and I brown the ground meat hamburger or turkey.
It keeps longer in the fridge in batches cooked. Max our outside dog gets
bones but maggie can not eat bones.
-----------------------------------
You don`t need to "make" anything. I have a freezer full of raw meat, so when it is time to feed I just pull whatever is there and give it to my dogs. Whole chickens, whole rabbits, whole turkey, pork cuts,venison, beef. I travel when I go to dog shows. Same thing, bring a cooler or just buy things at the local grocery stores. You can always find chicken at least. I don`t think of convenience , after all a dog is not the most convenient pet. If I wanted convenience I would get a gold fish.Having said that, feeding raw is no more convenient then feeding kibble, you just keep food in the freezer instead of a bag.I don`t think anything what is canned can be called raw. And why Maggie can`t eat bones? I start 5 weeks old pups on chicken quarters and they can eat bones by the time they are 7 weeks old.Even with those tiny baby teeth.
--------------------------------
Regarding this comment " If you don't want to feed your carnivore
properly, you should have a different sort of pet, perhaps."

This is back to the I am right and you are wrong attitude, there is a
happy medium to everything. We need to be realistic, I practice in a
community of very poor people and they are lucky they can affort cheap
kibble for their pets more less meat for their human family members.
-------------------
I am not reach myself, it cost me $30-$40 per month to feed two of my dogs. I can cut it further if I spent more time establishing contacts with local farmers, but I don`t feel like it.Rawfeeding can be as expensive as you want it to be.The benefits however are priceless. Youlia
-------------

Kathy

[Ginny Wilken]

And how many of those poor have children that they cannot afford to feed correctly? Or, rather, how many understand that they only get one chance to develop a healthy human being? They bred regardless of how well they can nurture. Would you not rather have seen them not breed? Every child that gets less than great nutrition and care makes my heart bleed, but no one questions folks' rights to do it wrong. With pets, we have a chance to do it right. Even if the poor must feed kibble and Mac&Cheese, you don't have to. Pets come to us and stick with us no matter how badly we treat them; they have neither knowledge nor choice. But we do. I may be right, but you aren't wrong until you decide to stop learning.
ginny
All stunts performed without a net!

[Kathleen Ramsey]

I was always told that chicken bones splinter and should not be given to
dogs. When I purchased maggie (english bulldog) I was told not to give
her bones because her breed should not have them.

We are in the keys and she is eating raw fish right now (smile). But we
only get this luxury every February.

Thanks Kathy

I know hundreds of animal owners that don't feed raw, they actually think

[cyndiann]

On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 16:00:08 -0500, wrote:
That is only with cooked bones. Raw bones don't splinter.

Cyndi

[Youlia Anderson]

I was always told that chicken bones splinter and should not be given to
dogs. When I purchased maggie (english bulldog) I was told not to give
her bones because her breed should not have them.
-----------------
This applies to cooked bones. Raw chicken bones are pretty easy for a dog to handle. Like I said, 7 weeks old pups can eat them without any problems and I don`t have a large breed.
-----------------------------
We are in the keys and she is eating raw fish right now (smile).
----------------------------
Good for her!
----------------------
But we
only get this luxury every February.
--------------
There are rawfeeding co-ops in some areas.Perhaps you even have somewhere near you. Once you start searching you will find the way to feed raw affordably.Join rawfeeding list and we will show you the way! Youlia
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/
----------------------------
Thanks Kathy