Berlin Wall/Meditative provings

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Joy Lucas
Posts: 3350
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm

Berlin Wall/Meditative provings

Post by Joy Lucas »

Dear Simon, not sure what I can really add to what has already been
written and not sure if it's worth it if you are bored with this topic
now :-)

I can still only say that homeopathy has to be scientific because of
what science is - the acquisition of knowledge through study. The
'study' in homeopathy is our provings, our data, without which we have
no ability to make symptom similarity and without that we have no
homeopathy - one reason why my call is for ALL remedies to be proved
according to principles laid down in the Organon (preferably). That way
the information/data we have regarding the provings is reliable.

However we have to ask to what extent we get stuck in the past -
Hahnemann used crude substances first but he moved on, we all know
that; he wrote a number of editions of the Organon, moving on all the
time, we all know that; he encouraged us to acquaint ourselves with as
many medicines as possible (stanza 51?). If we are to keep an open mind
about this (which is important in any scientific enterprise) we could
ask 3 questions. What do we do with substances that cannot be proved in
the Hahnemannian manner? And can we open our minds to ask how Hahnemann
might have dealt with this had he lived in the 21st C - would he have
been able to take on board a spiritual/conceptual approach to finding
new remedies?

Also what does it mean to our science if we reject certain substances,
rendering them 'unfit' for any type of proving?

All scientific procedures require protocol - we have the protocol for
'standard' provings laid down for us in the Organon (although many
provings do not adhere to this - this has to be rectified) but we also
need protocol for other non-standard provings such as the meditative
provings, again so as we can depend on the reliability of the data
gained from these provings, so that they then have a rightful place in
the Materia Medicas.

Whether standard procedure or not, if a very strong sx is recorded of a
rx but it is produced by only one person then that is ok as long as the
substance is proved again to ascertain whether this was coincidence,
effected by some other situation or a truly strange rare and peculiar
sx. Good scientific study would always check and re-check the data,
howsoever acquired and I believe this needs to be done also to attain a
high scientific standard.

So, our science provides data but some is unreliable but what I think
seems to irk you and hence your request for the definition or agreement
whether homeopathy is scientific or not is that so much homeopathy has
become 'personalised' - everyone/many want to shape homeopathy to their
own requirements and if we don't agree to someone's methods then we
close our minds to it. For me method is stylistics, the craft, the art
of practising homeopathy (or whatever you might want to call it) and
not to be confused with the science of homeopathy, and my other call
would be that we keep our minds open to this because it is separate
from the science - the science being the provings of homeopathy and not
the practice of homeopathy. There is nothing good in having a closed
mind to discovering what some call 'core delusions' if that core
delusion is that which is making someone extremely sick and the route
to finding the sx similarity based on a proving of what will be the
simillimum, that which will cure, is found through that core delusion -
however extreme or fanciful it might be. This is just an example but in
other words we shouldn't criticise the stylistics if it is working,
curing. Perhaps we tend to do so because this isn't the scientific
aspect of homeopathy and the practice of homeopathy appears to have
endless methodologies.

I believe Homeopathy has the science and the 'art' and maybe the
'practice' of homeopathy is not scientific in toto even though our
knowledge is always being expanded upon but homeopathy surely has its
scientific foundations in the provings, they being our data, our study,
our science and without which we wouldn't be discussing this. Clear as
mud? Best wishes, Joy

http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.blogspot.com


Simon King LCPH MARH
Posts: 972
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 10:00 pm

Re: Berlin Wall/Meditative provings

Post by Simon King LCPH MARH »

Is that then our definition of science? How does this differ from an
art?
That would be nice but the reality is we rely everyday on info that is
not 100% accurate or reliable

Fine but there is no obvious differentiation in the Mms , will it be
clear to future generations of Hs which Rxs are and aren't meditative
provings, ( Its Ok for us we know them by heart) they'll all be mixed
up n the Mms and reps. Not very 'scientific'

What are you saying here? The Mms and reps do contain such info , sure,
but also a lot that doesn't meet these standards. I am not really
addressing the questin of provings but of the question H'. practice

ergo NOT scientific. (i.e. contradiction)
No - the methodology is clear to most that isn't what the problem is.
So you agree HOW we practice Isn't science or scientific?
Quite agree, and the very point I am making
Who was -? I wasn't!
So are we agreeing here than that the practice of homeopathy is cannot
be (to all intents and purposes IRL ) scientific?
(That was the point I was arguing)
scientfic foundations - YES! But the practice of homepathy -
scientific? - that's another matter entirely , one which, if I have
understood correctly, Chris believes to be true ( that the practice is
scientific)
you said it LOL!
- No I'm teasing!
%-)


Joy Lucas
Posts: 3350
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm

Re: Berlin Wall/Meditative provings

Post by Joy Lucas »

Dear Simon, I offer the definition but I can't say whether it is
'ours'. I tried to emphasise my use of the word 'art' with commas
because in no way does a higher or fine art have a place in this
discussion. You could define the fine arts as a way of transcribing
ideas into wealth but the 'art' I refer to here is how we might apply
our science, through a variety of methodologies.

Our provings provide our scientific data and we carry a great deal of
our search for knowledge (science) into our case analyses because we
are trying to match the case symptoms to the provings symptoms and it
is essential that we, as practitioners, be the objective observer and
listener when we take a case but we also often bring to our case
analysis an intuition, an instinct that is not scientific. By its very
nature how can instinct be scientific? So that is why I say the
practice of homeopathy is not scientific in toto. If our case analysis
has to be 100% scientific then we have to disallow this intuition (or
whatever one might call it) but then all the wonderful homeopaths in
the world, who work in this manner, i.e. bring a little intuition to
their cases, become questionable.

Whether Chris and I agree or disagree on this I am sure she could write
about this better than me anyway.

As to the 'producers' of the reps and MM's I reckon they too ackowledge
that there is a problem with this production. But it isn't a scientific
problem it is merely (?) one of compilation and production. There is
always the potential for error however fined tuned the system is but
there is a lot of work to be done in this area, I agree with that.

I included the bit about the reliability of some sx because Soroush
make the point regarding Lilium tig. It was just a way for me to
reiterate the need for provings and re-provings as I am sure that one
proving isn't enough for any given substance.

The fact that some scientific data can be unreliable doesn't make it a
contradiction and therefore not science. There is contradiction is all
concepts and to have data that is so pure and unquestionable is
probably unattainable. We are caught in a paradigm of ever shifting
knowledge and data.

I only included the subject example of core delusions because so many
people discount this methodology and thus discount a degree of
homeopathy and it is symptomatic of a closed mind and that really isn't
scientific.

So I would still say that the practice of homeopathy is not scientific
in toto. I think for it to be so our clients cases would have to be
considered to be scientific also and I can't imagine how that might be.
But a great deal of homeopathy is scientific. How's that for sitting on
the fence :-)

Best wishes, Joy
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Simon King LCPH MARH
Posts: 972
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 10:00 pm

Re: Berlin Wall/Meditative provings

Post by Simon King LCPH MARH »

That's Fine - because I think it's all we can do as homeopaths - I
don't think we can claim that homeopathy is scientific in toto, but
perhaps Chris disagrees?
Simon


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