Dear dr. H,
I think we're on the same page. SO let me give you my perspective of
the points you raised below - if only to add a little more colour to
what you said...
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "hahnemannian2002"
wrote:
***Actually contrary to what you were afraid of below I"m more "afraid
" of hypnotherapy and its unbriddled power...
***Right, only once these "powers" can be clearly and effective
demonstrated to be following clear principles and guidelines can they
be "reliable" and then accepted or not as part of homeopathy. Till
then they will remain in the fringes.***
***We dont' need to get so afraid of this - really! What we all need
to have is a clear foundation on the materia medica of Hahnemaninan
provings and the principles of the Organon. It is absolutely a
necessity for EVRY student today. To be aware of which books carry
this "reliable" materia Medica". BEcasue it is only then that we can
make rational decisions about anything that does not fit the mould.
Once that foundation is laid - one moves towards the finges based on
ones capacity to absorb or utilize, allowing for a development of that
aspect for future homeopathic purposes.
Cutailing scinetific or furthur development based on fear or prejudice
is never good for any system.
Like I said - making sure a good homeopathic foundation exists in
every single homeopath is what is actually necessary.***
***This has been my point precisely on another topic of discussion on
the Lyteforce list - re: Alcoholism (Simon and Shannon were there).
When we come across cases that NEED spiritual healing how do we know
whether we're helping them get on the right track Spiritually and not
sending them to Charlatans? This is important for me because often I
come across people who do need this kind of help - where I know the
indicated remedy is not working due to a spiritual block or need.
For me, there is only ONE sure way of knowing that someone is truly
working with the SPirit of God - as I mentioned in that discussion. IN
situations when a person is open to it or asking for suggestions, I'd
gladly suggest it to them - rather than let them try and find some
Charlatan on their own!***
***Sure we can ... and we should. BUT have you noitced, the people who
are interested in homeoapthy today are precisely those who are already
involved in deep meditative therapy, spiritual emlightenment, and
various other fringe/energy therapies. They are abound to have various
ideas about provings.
The important thing is first to maintian the sacntity of "Hahenmanian"
homeopathy .. and then explore if the add ons like meditative provings
can be truly "scientifically" controlled for the future of homeoapthy.***
***I think you are missing a very importnat fact of homeoapthy ...
what exactly IS curing your patients? Energy patterns? How can you
prove that? What is a homeopathic potency? Can you prove it
scientifically?
So what exactly constitutes a "COMPLETE" proving? HOW do you know when
you've had enough symptoms? How do you know whether your materia
medica on any remedy is incomplete or complete? How did some remedies
expand into the so called polychrests?***
( May be I can
***Very funny.... BUt actually people who do a lot of meditation are
actually very sensitive to their thought processes.
People who are deeply spiritual are very sensitive to hear the "gentle
voice of the holy spirit" (I make Christain references becasue I know
the language). They are very sensitive to "foreign" thoughts that can
be attributed to a clear source.
One does not "meditate" in limbo based on randomness ... there is a
method, there is a state of heart and spriit that is generated. This
is a very sensitive and specific state that requires a certain amount
of physical and emotional discipline, moral standing and contact with
ones human Spirit and the SPirit of God.
SO yes, a lot can be said for meditative provings - provided
principles and guidelines can be set in place about which level of
(personal spiritual) experience is required to obtain true proving
symptoms.
Incredulity and disbelief is obviously not the answer!
its almost 1 am - goodnight!
(dr) Leela
meditative provings - dr. h
-
muthu kumar
- Posts: 1208
- Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 10:00 pm
Re: meditative provings - dr. h
Dr.Leelah-
The truly trustworthy symptoms of our system were developed more
than 100 years back. Even if we start reproving some of them to see
if there are any changes in symptomatology based on the changes
through out the society we can have so many good guidelines. I do
not have any problems with meditative symptoms. You might have seen
I had about 12 or 13 questions on the meditative provings in a
previous post. Do you have some answers for those since you seem to
have some back ground and inclination for it?
I have always tried to keep my religion and other beliefs away from
my practice. I have never seen a case that needed a spiritual block
removed so I cannot see me suggesting anything else apart from
therapeutics.
How would you identify that the remedy is not working due to
spiritual block? Please do not reply to that question if there are
going to be too many spiritual answers because I do not want to hurt
your feelings and belief systems.
For me if my remedy does not work, it is usually what I have or have
not done or whatever the patient is or is not doing. Of course there
are patients who would need some other therapy / some other person
handling him/her because I am not doing effective treatment. But
that is about it. For me if someone asks for spiritual help, that
itself is a symptom or a line to pursue to see why but I do not have
any theological or other answers for spiritual help.
In fact most of them ultimately get some psychotherapy because this
search for spiritual answers usually comes out of depression or
coping problems with their current situation . I usually give them
hypnotherapy ( which is not woo woo and has been extensively
researched and documented even under control situations) based on
cognitive-behavioral approaches and Dr.John Hartland's ego
strengthening routines work so very well for Indian population.
patients come out of therapy with an awareness of reality and
convinced of their own inner strength ( ego-strength) to face the
reality without falling into the so many spiritual and religious
cults in our country. I usually gave just 5 sessions and then some
self hypnosis training and had good results. ( Also depends on
selecting the correct patients - not too psychotic patients)
If you have any misgivings about Hypnosis and hypnotherapy I can
give you some good scientific references. By the way hahnemann
believed in hypnosis and "magnetism". It does not have
any "unbridled power" and hypnotherapists are not Rasputins or Count
Draculas...
Many of the ideas of hypnosis form the basis of the strategic
therapy school in Family therapy and of the NLP ( Neuro Linguistic
Programming) group - ( Have you heard of Anthony Robbins?)
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "doctorleelah2h"
wrote:
of
to
unconscious
do.
more "afraid
do
which
part of
they
establishing
we
But
is
seems
achieve.
need
can
on
that
prejudice
other
unchartered
for
I
on
know
not
I
truly
discussion. IN
I'd
with
pressing
a
provings
who
already
various
of "Hahenmanian"
provings
homeoapthy.***
the
for
not
in a
giving
when
remedies
heat
of
for
are
the "gentle
know
can
This
amount
with
actual
of
God,
clear
meditative
small
Hahnemannian
the
uncorroborated?
The truly trustworthy symptoms of our system were developed more
than 100 years back. Even if we start reproving some of them to see
if there are any changes in symptomatology based on the changes
through out the society we can have so many good guidelines. I do
not have any problems with meditative symptoms. You might have seen
I had about 12 or 13 questions on the meditative provings in a
previous post. Do you have some answers for those since you seem to
have some back ground and inclination for it?
I have always tried to keep my religion and other beliefs away from
my practice. I have never seen a case that needed a spiritual block
removed so I cannot see me suggesting anything else apart from
therapeutics.
How would you identify that the remedy is not working due to
spiritual block? Please do not reply to that question if there are
going to be too many spiritual answers because I do not want to hurt
your feelings and belief systems.
For me if my remedy does not work, it is usually what I have or have
not done or whatever the patient is or is not doing. Of course there
are patients who would need some other therapy / some other person
handling him/her because I am not doing effective treatment. But
that is about it. For me if someone asks for spiritual help, that
itself is a symptom or a line to pursue to see why but I do not have
any theological or other answers for spiritual help.
In fact most of them ultimately get some psychotherapy because this
search for spiritual answers usually comes out of depression or
coping problems with their current situation . I usually give them
hypnotherapy ( which is not woo woo and has been extensively
researched and documented even under control situations) based on
cognitive-behavioral approaches and Dr.John Hartland's ego
strengthening routines work so very well for Indian population.
patients come out of therapy with an awareness of reality and
convinced of their own inner strength ( ego-strength) to face the
reality without falling into the so many spiritual and religious
cults in our country. I usually gave just 5 sessions and then some
self hypnosis training and had good results. ( Also depends on
selecting the correct patients - not too psychotic patients)
If you have any misgivings about Hypnosis and hypnotherapy I can
give you some good scientific references. By the way hahnemann
believed in hypnosis and "magnetism". It does not have
any "unbridled power" and hypnotherapists are not Rasputins or Count
Draculas...
Many of the ideas of hypnosis form the basis of the strategic
therapy school in Family therapy and of the NLP ( Neuro Linguistic
Programming) group - ( Have you heard of Anthony Robbins?)
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "doctorleelah2h"
wrote:
of
to
unconscious
do.
more "afraid
do
which
part of
they
establishing
we
But
is
seems
achieve.
need
can
on
that
prejudice
other
unchartered
for
I
on
know
not
I
truly
discussion. IN
I'd
with
pressing
a
provings
who
already
various
of "Hahenmanian"
provings
homeoapthy.***
the
for
not
in a
giving
when
remedies
heat
of
for
are
the "gentle
know
can
This
amount
with
actual
of
God,
clear
meditative
small
Hahnemannian
the
uncorroborated?
-
Ellen Madono
- Posts: 2012
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:00 pm
Re: meditative provings - dr. h
Dear Leela,
When I am managing the homeopathic case of another yogi, I end up doing yogic counseling at the same time. It's a natural part of the remedy management and it is the shared framework for understanding what is happening. I am only a beginner and this is not how I was taught. My teacher was not a yogi, although he was very sympathetic to my perspective. I some times wonder am I prejudicing the outcome by fitting in my understanding to the yogic perspective on energy? I don't do this with people who do not share my framework. Yogis are people who work actively with their energy and know their energetic bodies. I see that the consultations go much deeper than the work with others who have little intuitive sense of their energetic body. Its this intuitive sense that is essential. I haven't studied enough to make a judgment about intuitive proving, but I believe that taken in the proper framework, they could be helpful.
Blessings,
Ellen Madono
When I am managing the homeopathic case of another yogi, I end up doing yogic counseling at the same time. It's a natural part of the remedy management and it is the shared framework for understanding what is happening. I am only a beginner and this is not how I was taught. My teacher was not a yogi, although he was very sympathetic to my perspective. I some times wonder am I prejudicing the outcome by fitting in my understanding to the yogic perspective on energy? I don't do this with people who do not share my framework. Yogis are people who work actively with their energy and know their energetic bodies. I see that the consultations go much deeper than the work with others who have little intuitive sense of their energetic body. Its this intuitive sense that is essential. I haven't studied enough to make a judgment about intuitive proving, but I believe that taken in the proper framework, they could be helpful.
Blessings,
Ellen Madono
-
Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: meditative provings - dr. h
Hi Ellen,
This sounds intriguing! What do you mean by "yogic counseling", and in
what do you mean that it's part of "remedy management"--do you simply
mean that it's all part of the larger framework within which you are
helping them, or do you mean that you find a direct relationship?
Shannon
This sounds intriguing! What do you mean by "yogic counseling", and in
what do you mean that it's part of "remedy management"--do you simply
mean that it's all part of the larger framework within which you are
helping them, or do you mean that you find a direct relationship?
Shannon
-
Ellen Madono
- Posts: 2012
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:00 pm
Re: meditative provings - dr. h
Dear Shannon,
It's not that I find the remedy through meditation. Instead I know that the yogi px has been trained in meditation. They also know that there is non-material energy that you can feel in your body or that you can sense through intuition. Furthermore, they are sensitive to emotional change. So I can make those assumptions when I talk to them. For example, a yogi (woman) has just started sepia. Of course there are big conflicts going on with the husband. She notice the ball in her throat. I think to my self she is not saying what she needs to say to him. The ball, nausea and head pain go away as she speaks her mind to him. She is, unlike many px of mine, aware when all this is happening as it is happening. She does not necessarily make the associations that I make, but my explanations make sense to her. We talk about the problem as a 5th charka problem. Then she begins to talk about the 3rd charka pain (solar plexus). This is normal to have the 5th and 3rd charka correspondence. For most people, I would not be thinking in terms of charkas, but for her it is easy to discuss the problem that way. Also, we talk about specific meditations for specific problems that come during her aggravations. Probably the remedy could do all the work, but I personally feel that using yogic techniques is an appropriate support for the remedy when the px is all ready trained to take care of herself that way. The communication is more complete and she will take the remedy further because she is more involved in making it work.
Blessings,
Ellen
It's not that I find the remedy through meditation. Instead I know that the yogi px has been trained in meditation. They also know that there is non-material energy that you can feel in your body or that you can sense through intuition. Furthermore, they are sensitive to emotional change. So I can make those assumptions when I talk to them. For example, a yogi (woman) has just started sepia. Of course there are big conflicts going on with the husband. She notice the ball in her throat. I think to my self she is not saying what she needs to say to him. The ball, nausea and head pain go away as she speaks her mind to him. She is, unlike many px of mine, aware when all this is happening as it is happening. She does not necessarily make the associations that I make, but my explanations make sense to her. We talk about the problem as a 5th charka problem. Then she begins to talk about the 3rd charka pain (solar plexus). This is normal to have the 5th and 3rd charka correspondence. For most people, I would not be thinking in terms of charkas, but for her it is easy to discuss the problem that way. Also, we talk about specific meditations for specific problems that come during her aggravations. Probably the remedy could do all the work, but I personally feel that using yogic techniques is an appropriate support for the remedy when the px is all ready trained to take care of herself that way. The communication is more complete and she will take the remedy further because she is more involved in making it work.
Blessings,
Ellen
-
doctorleelah2h
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:13 pm
Re: meditative provings - dr. h
HI HAhnemanian,
You really couldn't "hurt my (spiritual) feeings" about my "belief
system", except if you perhaps suggested that I'm forcing it on you -
as a mean, legalistic Bible-pushing Jesus-freak... (Haha)!
My "belief system" works too well for me to be hurt about it...!
I haven't really researched the depth of the why's and how's of
meditative provings. BUt I do know that they are a distinct possiblity
and not "hocus pocus" or "woo-woo"
MAybe if you gave me a list of your questions again,(privately if you
like), I"ll set my mind to them and also keep an observant eye for
your answers clincially.
You said: "I have always tried to keep my religion and other beliefs
away from my practice. I have never seen a case that needed a
spiritual block removed so I cannot see me suggesting anything else
apart from therapeutics."
I can't see how any homeopath can be "unprejudiced" if they did not do
the same. If you've never seen a spiritual block, its becasue you
don't know how to see it. One cannot see what one does not know. One
can only suggest what one is trained to do or to see.
BUt apart from that, every patient who relates to me, relates to me
as Leela the homeopath who has a spiritual self that has expereinced
the love of God - now how do you suggest that I disassociate this from
my practice?
When I "see" with my heart, my mind's eye, that there exists a
SPiritual block, I offer a suggestion to that person if they are open
to it at a particular point of time. I'm not afraid to do so - but I
don't offer this unless I have tried everything else I have been
trained to do for that individual case homeopathically - even if I
noticed the spirirtual block much earlier on.
Sometimes when I know they will never be open to a spiritual
suggestins, I ahve been forced to suggest that they simply continue
with allopathy or something similarly superficailly palliative.
In most cases I believe our remedies stimulate the person to make
his/her own searches and they they usually end up finding their way
eventually. OFten they have already begun to look for it and after the
remedy, there is greater clarity ...
RIght, then is there a controversy about whether SPirituality is
helpful or not? Whether it is therapeutic for depression or only for
seeking something deeper in ones heart?
Spirituality is not necessarily only therapeutic. But it can be.
Spirituality is a basic human need (of ones soul) that one can choose
to ignore to ones own detriment. I don't see any point in debating
this however in this discussion.
I have serious misgivings about Hypnotherapy because I see it as a
block in the homeopathic process of cure. The few patients I have had
who have had hypnotherapy in the past have never benefitted from any
remedy I could give them in the long term. Probably I never gave them
good remedies - who knows - but the co-incidence was striking for me.
HAhnemann talked about MEsmerism - in $288 onwards.
He did not mention "hypnotherapy", unless you are confusing the two,
both are quite different things.
regards,
dr. leela
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "hahnemannian2002"
wrote:
You really couldn't "hurt my (spiritual) feeings" about my "belief
system", except if you perhaps suggested that I'm forcing it on you -
as a mean, legalistic Bible-pushing Jesus-freak... (Haha)!
My "belief system" works too well for me to be hurt about it...!
I haven't really researched the depth of the why's and how's of
meditative provings. BUt I do know that they are a distinct possiblity
and not "hocus pocus" or "woo-woo"
MAybe if you gave me a list of your questions again,(privately if you
like), I"ll set my mind to them and also keep an observant eye for
your answers clincially.
You said: "I have always tried to keep my religion and other beliefs
away from my practice. I have never seen a case that needed a
spiritual block removed so I cannot see me suggesting anything else
apart from therapeutics."
I can't see how any homeopath can be "unprejudiced" if they did not do
the same. If you've never seen a spiritual block, its becasue you
don't know how to see it. One cannot see what one does not know. One
can only suggest what one is trained to do or to see.
BUt apart from that, every patient who relates to me, relates to me
as Leela the homeopath who has a spiritual self that has expereinced
the love of God - now how do you suggest that I disassociate this from
my practice?
When I "see" with my heart, my mind's eye, that there exists a
SPiritual block, I offer a suggestion to that person if they are open
to it at a particular point of time. I'm not afraid to do so - but I
don't offer this unless I have tried everything else I have been
trained to do for that individual case homeopathically - even if I
noticed the spirirtual block much earlier on.
Sometimes when I know they will never be open to a spiritual
suggestins, I ahve been forced to suggest that they simply continue
with allopathy or something similarly superficailly palliative.
In most cases I believe our remedies stimulate the person to make
his/her own searches and they they usually end up finding their way
eventually. OFten they have already begun to look for it and after the
remedy, there is greater clarity ...
RIght, then is there a controversy about whether SPirituality is
helpful or not? Whether it is therapeutic for depression or only for
seeking something deeper in ones heart?
Spirituality is not necessarily only therapeutic. But it can be.
Spirituality is a basic human need (of ones soul) that one can choose
to ignore to ones own detriment. I don't see any point in debating
this however in this discussion.
I have serious misgivings about Hypnotherapy because I see it as a
block in the homeopathic process of cure. The few patients I have had
who have had hypnotherapy in the past have never benefitted from any
remedy I could give them in the long term. Probably I never gave them
good remedies - who knows - but the co-incidence was striking for me.
HAhnemann talked about MEsmerism - in $288 onwards.
He did not mention "hypnotherapy", unless you are confusing the two,
both are quite different things.
regards,
dr. leela
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "hahnemannian2002"
wrote:
-
doctorleelah2h
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:13 pm
Re: meditative provings - dr. h
Dear Ellen,
YEs intiutive sense is a general term.
In my "language" it is the "knowlege of the heart", which can be
trained through deep spiritual focus and living a particular way of
life that allows for maximum "absorption" of spiritual energy.
About whether it is prejudicial to fit someone else into ones
spiritual understanding is a very important point. But I'm not sure if
I understood what you have said re: yogic counselling. (I'm sorry I
need to get some sleep..)
There are Spiritual laws and every human being ultimately is subject
to those spiritual laws whether they are able/or want to acknowlege it
or not. So there are certain observations one makes spiritually, that
are universal.
Whether the person concerend can be led in the direction of ones
perceptions requires two things to happen-
they should be open to it
One should have a greater degree of spiritual perception at that point
of time, in the conselling one is offering another.
Finally one can only lead another person one step ahead in a
particular direction. Each one has to find their own way ... we're in
the business of personal choice ... IF they WANT to learn more or get
more direction from you ... why not? There is always responsibility
attached though - just as one has to prescribe a homeoapthic remedy
with responsibility and proper knowlege.
YEs I have seen yogic meditation and relaxation techniques helpful to
many.
IF I haven't got you right, do clarify for me.
thanks,
leela
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Ellen Madono" wrote:
doing yogic counseling at the same time. It's a natural part of the
remedy management and it is the shared framework for understanding
what is happening. I am only a beginner and this is not how I was
taught. My teacher was not a yogi, although he was very sympathetic
to my perspective. I some times wonder am I prejudicing the outcome
by fitting in my understanding to the yogic perspective on energy? I
don't do this with people who do not share my framework. Yogis are
people who work actively with their energy and know their energetic
bodies. I see that the consultations go much deeper than the work
with others who have little intuitive sense of their energetic body.
Its this intuitive sense that is essential. I haven't studied enough
to make a judgment about intuitive proving, but I believe that taken
in the proper framework, they could be helpful.
part of
But
homeoapthy.***
not
giving
heat
actual
God,
meditative
Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no
representations regarding the individual suitability of the
information contained in any document read or advice or recommendation
offered which appears on this website and/or email postings for any
purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use remains with the
recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its individual
members be liable for any direct, consequential, incidental, special,
punitive or other damages whatsoever and howsoever caused.
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YEs intiutive sense is a general term.
In my "language" it is the "knowlege of the heart", which can be
trained through deep spiritual focus and living a particular way of
life that allows for maximum "absorption" of spiritual energy.
About whether it is prejudicial to fit someone else into ones
spiritual understanding is a very important point. But I'm not sure if
I understood what you have said re: yogic counselling. (I'm sorry I
need to get some sleep..)
There are Spiritual laws and every human being ultimately is subject
to those spiritual laws whether they are able/or want to acknowlege it
or not. So there are certain observations one makes spiritually, that
are universal.
Whether the person concerend can be led in the direction of ones
perceptions requires two things to happen-
they should be open to it
One should have a greater degree of spiritual perception at that point
of time, in the conselling one is offering another.
Finally one can only lead another person one step ahead in a
particular direction. Each one has to find their own way ... we're in
the business of personal choice ... IF they WANT to learn more or get
more direction from you ... why not? There is always responsibility
attached though - just as one has to prescribe a homeoapthic remedy
with responsibility and proper knowlege.
YEs I have seen yogic meditation and relaxation techniques helpful to
many.
IF I haven't got you right, do clarify for me.
thanks,
leela
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Ellen Madono" wrote:
doing yogic counseling at the same time. It's a natural part of the
remedy management and it is the shared framework for understanding
what is happening. I am only a beginner and this is not how I was
taught. My teacher was not a yogi, although he was very sympathetic
to my perspective. I some times wonder am I prejudicing the outcome
by fitting in my understanding to the yogic perspective on energy? I
don't do this with people who do not share my framework. Yogis are
people who work actively with their energy and know their energetic
bodies. I see that the consultations go much deeper than the work
with others who have little intuitive sense of their energetic body.
Its this intuitive sense that is essential. I haven't studied enough
to make a judgment about intuitive proving, but I believe that taken
in the proper framework, they could be helpful.
part of
But
homeoapthy.***
not
giving
heat
actual
God,
meditative
Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no
representations regarding the individual suitability of the
information contained in any document read or advice or recommendation
offered which appears on this website and/or email postings for any
purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use remains with the
recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its individual
members be liable for any direct, consequential, incidental, special,
punitive or other damages whatsoever and howsoever caused.
change your setting at http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/minutus to
receive a single daily digest.
Complementary and alternative medicine Complementary alternative
medicine
complementary and alternative medicine
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Service.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Ellen Madono
- Posts: 2012
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:00 pm
Re: meditative provings - dr. h
Dear Leela,
Yes, you have it very nicely. Probably the word counseling was poorly chosen, because the beauty of homeopathy is you don't have to convince anybody of anything except how to take the remedy. And some of that is left to the patient's self knowledge and experience. Likewise, meditation does not lead to prescription on how to live beyond how to set up your life for meditation.
Blessings,
Ellen
Yes, you have it very nicely. Probably the word counseling was poorly chosen, because the beauty of homeopathy is you don't have to convince anybody of anything except how to take the remedy. And some of that is left to the patient's self knowledge and experience. Likewise, meditation does not lead to prescription on how to live beyond how to set up your life for meditation.
Blessings,
Ellen