Dear Shannon,
Are you talking about the energy of *magnet* (a remedy) or of *a magnet*? In
the case of the latter, from my limited reading on this subject it seems
quite clearly established that within certain ranges of field strength no
ill effects will be seen, but beyond those ranges we start to see
pathological effects. (We could then make up homeopathic remedies based on
these overly powerful or inappropriately tuned magnets, to reverse the
effects. A modern example might be Radium, helping reverse the ill effects
of overly powerful EM fields.)
So here Hahnemann *is" talking about actual magnets and referring to them as
"homeopathic" assuming that he can find the right field strength to obtain
the best, safest results. But that isn't homeopathic in terms of the law of
similars: it is just a question of tuning the strength of the magnet to have
the optimum EM influence on the systems of the body or the individual case.
The body functions as a radio set: if we tune certain frequencies into it we
can enhance or inhibit certain functions - this is well known and has
nothing necessarily to do with the heterodyne principle of physics (or the
law of similars, as it is otherwise known).
Thanks for taking the time to write it up. I think it is very, very
interesting, and I don't have this text. H was obviously fishing for
understanding, and it must have been most frustrating. It does seem from
this as though his definition of "homeopathic" is not as rigid as we would
think nowadays.
Warmly,
Anna
_________________________________________________________________
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classical homeopathy / Hahnemann and magnets
-
Anna de Burgo
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:00 pm
-
Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
- Posts: 2279
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: classical homeopathy / Hahnemann and magnets
1. Doing lab research costs money, who is going to pay?????????????
2. You want research? it is available:
- Bellavite and Signori, The Emerging Science of Homeopathy
- Delinick Homeotherapeutics
- Michel Schiff The memory of water
- Madeleine Bastide, but I do not have her books and articles, too expensive
- Endler and Schulte Ultra High dilutions
- Doutrempuich Ultra Low doses
- Resch & Gutman Scientific foundations of homeopathy
Those are the ones I know about and have read; all of them (except Bastide, only available excerpts), cover to cover; which one did YOU read before spilling your criticism???
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
2. You want research? it is available:
- Bellavite and Signori, The Emerging Science of Homeopathy
- Delinick Homeotherapeutics
- Michel Schiff The memory of water
- Madeleine Bastide, but I do not have her books and articles, too expensive
- Endler and Schulte Ultra High dilutions
- Doutrempuich Ultra Low doses
- Resch & Gutman Scientific foundations of homeopathy
Those are the ones I know about and have read; all of them (except Bastide, only available excerpts), cover to cover; which one did YOU read before spilling your criticism???
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
-
Julian Winston
- Posts: 622
- Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm
Re: classical homeopathy / Hahnemann and magnets
At 10:04 PM +0000 4/20/04, Anna de Burgo wrote:
[snip]
I do not consider "vital-force" as archaic language. It is a
description of the "dynamis" or "life force" which separates us from
meat. It was the understanding of Hahnemann that a disturbance in
the life force (which in itself is non-material) will then *lead* to
the material signs of illness. The Chinese have recognized this as
"qi" and the Indians as "prana." Somehow, the western mind continues
to see the body only as a collection of chemico/physico parts. When
one dares ask, "well what is 'life'?" they are shunted off to talk
ton the priest or whoever is in charge of the "spiritual" side of
things in their model.
I have had some profound personal experiences of healing with a
direct application of qi energy from a Chinese master. I cannot deny
the existence of such a force.
Until "modern science" starts to understand that the concept of
"dynamis" is REAL and that Hahnemann's ideas have merit-- and THEN
attempt to study it outside of the chemico/physical model-- only then
will we begin to be on the way to understand the basic question of
"what is life?"
Using the modern terminology of "immune system" for understanding the
vital force just does NOT work.
It depends upon definitions. I do NOT consider the "dynamis" to be
superstition.
You have previously mentioned that the BIH USA promotes new-age
nonsense. You have been told, by the director of the BIH USA, that it
DOES NOT DO THIS. Either stop beating that horse, OR tell us exactly
the evidence you have that it does what you claim.
Astrology and shamanism creep into homeopathy, and herbalism, and
most other "alternatives" because conventional medicine has dismissed
them. I am sure that there are conventional docs who, on a personal
level, believe in astrology-- they just have not found a way of
integrating into their practices.
Well, we KNOW it works. There is 150 years of journals documenting
its use. And from using it personally, I REALLY KNOW it works. The
"how" is another question. And until those with the funds start to
investigate the workings of the "dynamis" they will never find out.
All the efforts that" science" has brought to bear on homeopathy have
resulted in investigation in only three areas:
1. clinicial trials using the simillimum (Jacobs' Nicarauga study)
2. clinical trials showing that an ultra high dilution has action (DT
Reilly's work)
3. explorations within the molecular structure of water to show there
are changes in ultra-dilute substances.
NONE of these is looking for the big question of HOW it works-- how
does the law of similars work? Most likely, to underastand that, one
would have to look at understanding the "dynamis."
Because understanding that it is the "dynamis" that separates animate
from inanimate is the real understanding.
JW
[snip]
I do not consider "vital-force" as archaic language. It is a
description of the "dynamis" or "life force" which separates us from
meat. It was the understanding of Hahnemann that a disturbance in
the life force (which in itself is non-material) will then *lead* to
the material signs of illness. The Chinese have recognized this as
"qi" and the Indians as "prana." Somehow, the western mind continues
to see the body only as a collection of chemico/physico parts. When
one dares ask, "well what is 'life'?" they are shunted off to talk
ton the priest or whoever is in charge of the "spiritual" side of
things in their model.
I have had some profound personal experiences of healing with a
direct application of qi energy from a Chinese master. I cannot deny
the existence of such a force.
Until "modern science" starts to understand that the concept of
"dynamis" is REAL and that Hahnemann's ideas have merit-- and THEN
attempt to study it outside of the chemico/physical model-- only then
will we begin to be on the way to understand the basic question of
"what is life?"
Using the modern terminology of "immune system" for understanding the
vital force just does NOT work.
It depends upon definitions. I do NOT consider the "dynamis" to be
superstition.
You have previously mentioned that the BIH USA promotes new-age
nonsense. You have been told, by the director of the BIH USA, that it
DOES NOT DO THIS. Either stop beating that horse, OR tell us exactly
the evidence you have that it does what you claim.
Astrology and shamanism creep into homeopathy, and herbalism, and
most other "alternatives" because conventional medicine has dismissed
them. I am sure that there are conventional docs who, on a personal
level, believe in astrology-- they just have not found a way of
integrating into their practices.
Well, we KNOW it works. There is 150 years of journals documenting
its use. And from using it personally, I REALLY KNOW it works. The
"how" is another question. And until those with the funds start to
investigate the workings of the "dynamis" they will never find out.
All the efforts that" science" has brought to bear on homeopathy have
resulted in investigation in only three areas:
1. clinicial trials using the simillimum (Jacobs' Nicarauga study)
2. clinical trials showing that an ultra high dilution has action (DT
Reilly's work)
3. explorations within the molecular structure of water to show there
are changes in ultra-dilute substances.
NONE of these is looking for the big question of HOW it works-- how
does the law of similars work? Most likely, to underastand that, one
would have to look at understanding the "dynamis."
Because understanding that it is the "dynamis" that separates animate
from inanimate is the real understanding.
JW
-
Allen Coniglio
- Posts: 429
- Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: classical homeopathy / Hahnemann and magnets
The idiotic and pathetically limited Western "scientific" mind cannot now
and never will be able to understand homeopathy as it ("science") labors
under the delusions and fears of a long disgraced paradigm which has
substituted cynicism, skepticism and bad manners for an honest search for
the truth. This cloistered, pampered and white coated group of know nothings
can only see far enough to berate and dismiss that which they have never
made any attempt to understand and/or explore in the first place. This
"science" is dismissive, dishonest and a disservice to humanity. These
"scientists" are an enemy of humanity and it is these who work, wittingly or
unwittingly, to enslave the ignorant and uninformed with their neomagical
incantations and revelations of their countless "new" discoveries which they
use to dismiss the work of truly great scientists and thinkers such as
Samuel Hahnemann. Pity the modern quack "scientist" who dismisses the Truth
of homeopathy, Chinese medicine, Ayurveda and the wisdom of the great holy
books and traditions of all cultures as "superstition". These are among the
most miserable of anti-intellectual, anti-scientific pretenders who have
ever populated the Earth. They exist not to serve, as does the true
homeopath but, more readily to be exalted, honored and held in high esteem
within the culture of arrogance and misinformation they have so assiduously
created. These are the true quacks but, within the confines of this
backwards world that is now under the sway of the darkness of them and their
masters, they appear as the light bearers in the last days of this dying age
of Pisces. Their days are numbered, however, as humanity is beginning the
slow rise from the dominion of these lords of darkness and will find their
Truth, enlightenment and freedom in the nascent Age of Aquarius. Do I
tremble when the twit "scientists" of the dying Piscean Age (the age of
illusion, deception and obfuscation from which they draw their power and
soon to be deposed authority) tell me that homeopathy and astrology are
"superstition"? My answer is that I have studied these subjects and applied
them and, I have proven to my SCIENTIFIC mind that they work. They have
obviously never rigorously observed these or many other subjects which they
so cavalierly dismiss. These quacks have forgotten - if they ever really
knew - what the scientific method is and how to use it. They do not
understand what Science is. These claimants to the throne of Wisdom will
always fail in their quest, as Wisdom has sealed her doors against the
arrogant, the dishonest and the usurper. When confronted by anything that
does not fit within their truncated and inadequate paradigm, their only
answer is to ridicule the offending idea and/or agent. They love to use
words such as, "superstition" and, "nonsense", to belittle that which they
can never hope to understand. These are intellectual thugs and bullies and I
have met many of them in my life, so, I know them and their methods well.
They inhabit the universities and ivory towers of a pampered, decadent and
dying world system. When I was a child, I was taught that Earth is the only
place in the Universe that could support life and that humans were the high
point of Creation. I didn't believe that then and, I do not believe it now.
This was information gathered from the "scientists" of that day. Today,
contrarily, I am told that there are countless planets orbiting countless
stars in countless galaxies in countless universes and that the
PROBABILITIES are that life, similar to Earth life, exists on many of these
planets. How many "scientists" of this day still preach the safety of
amalgam fillings even though there is, and has been for more than 100 years,
abundant anecdotal and scientific evidence that the use of these metals in
dental composites is harmful to human health? How many "scientists" have
ridiculed the practice of pursuing a diet of organic and vegetarian foods
even though it is becoming increasingly clear that the Western meat based
diet is dangerous to human and planetary health? What are the reasons that
these "scientists" ignore mounting volumes of evidence and continue with
outdated and ignorant beliefs? Remember how the scientists of the 15th
century railed when some suggested that the Earth was not flat but, round?
Wasn't Hahnemann persecuted and ridiculed (their favorite weapon) by the
"scientists" of his day when he suggested that venesection and poisoning of
people with Arsenic and Mercury was harmful or that (predating Pasteur) he
suspected that there were tiny, unknown living agents (bacteria) that may
somehow play a role in disease? Clearly, today's idiot "science" will be
tomorrow's folly, as that is what history teaches us. My advice to anyone
who wants to know the Truth is to throw off the yoke of ignorance and
superstition that informs today's "science" and learn to think for
yourselves. The TRUTH is out there waiting for us. All we have to do is to
slay the arrogant dragon of deception, fraud and darkness that attempts to
enslave us so that it can continue to suck the life from our souls. Wake up,
my friends - the emperor has been exposed and, he is naked. Do you have the
courage and the will to see for yourselves?
I hope I have been clear.
ALLEN CONIGLIO
and never will be able to understand homeopathy as it ("science") labors
under the delusions and fears of a long disgraced paradigm which has
substituted cynicism, skepticism and bad manners for an honest search for
the truth. This cloistered, pampered and white coated group of know nothings
can only see far enough to berate and dismiss that which they have never
made any attempt to understand and/or explore in the first place. This
"science" is dismissive, dishonest and a disservice to humanity. These
"scientists" are an enemy of humanity and it is these who work, wittingly or
unwittingly, to enslave the ignorant and uninformed with their neomagical
incantations and revelations of their countless "new" discoveries which they
use to dismiss the work of truly great scientists and thinkers such as
Samuel Hahnemann. Pity the modern quack "scientist" who dismisses the Truth
of homeopathy, Chinese medicine, Ayurveda and the wisdom of the great holy
books and traditions of all cultures as "superstition". These are among the
most miserable of anti-intellectual, anti-scientific pretenders who have
ever populated the Earth. They exist not to serve, as does the true
homeopath but, more readily to be exalted, honored and held in high esteem
within the culture of arrogance and misinformation they have so assiduously
created. These are the true quacks but, within the confines of this
backwards world that is now under the sway of the darkness of them and their
masters, they appear as the light bearers in the last days of this dying age
of Pisces. Their days are numbered, however, as humanity is beginning the
slow rise from the dominion of these lords of darkness and will find their
Truth, enlightenment and freedom in the nascent Age of Aquarius. Do I
tremble when the twit "scientists" of the dying Piscean Age (the age of
illusion, deception and obfuscation from which they draw their power and
soon to be deposed authority) tell me that homeopathy and astrology are
"superstition"? My answer is that I have studied these subjects and applied
them and, I have proven to my SCIENTIFIC mind that they work. They have
obviously never rigorously observed these or many other subjects which they
so cavalierly dismiss. These quacks have forgotten - if they ever really
knew - what the scientific method is and how to use it. They do not
understand what Science is. These claimants to the throne of Wisdom will
always fail in their quest, as Wisdom has sealed her doors against the
arrogant, the dishonest and the usurper. When confronted by anything that
does not fit within their truncated and inadequate paradigm, their only
answer is to ridicule the offending idea and/or agent. They love to use
words such as, "superstition" and, "nonsense", to belittle that which they
can never hope to understand. These are intellectual thugs and bullies and I
have met many of them in my life, so, I know them and their methods well.
They inhabit the universities and ivory towers of a pampered, decadent and
dying world system. When I was a child, I was taught that Earth is the only
place in the Universe that could support life and that humans were the high
point of Creation. I didn't believe that then and, I do not believe it now.
This was information gathered from the "scientists" of that day. Today,
contrarily, I am told that there are countless planets orbiting countless
stars in countless galaxies in countless universes and that the
PROBABILITIES are that life, similar to Earth life, exists on many of these
planets. How many "scientists" of this day still preach the safety of
amalgam fillings even though there is, and has been for more than 100 years,
abundant anecdotal and scientific evidence that the use of these metals in
dental composites is harmful to human health? How many "scientists" have
ridiculed the practice of pursuing a diet of organic and vegetarian foods
even though it is becoming increasingly clear that the Western meat based
diet is dangerous to human and planetary health? What are the reasons that
these "scientists" ignore mounting volumes of evidence and continue with
outdated and ignorant beliefs? Remember how the scientists of the 15th
century railed when some suggested that the Earth was not flat but, round?
Wasn't Hahnemann persecuted and ridiculed (their favorite weapon) by the
"scientists" of his day when he suggested that venesection and poisoning of
people with Arsenic and Mercury was harmful or that (predating Pasteur) he
suspected that there were tiny, unknown living agents (bacteria) that may
somehow play a role in disease? Clearly, today's idiot "science" will be
tomorrow's folly, as that is what history teaches us. My advice to anyone
who wants to know the Truth is to throw off the yoke of ignorance and
superstition that informs today's "science" and learn to think for
yourselves. The TRUTH is out there waiting for us. All we have to do is to
slay the arrogant dragon of deception, fraud and darkness that attempts to
enslave us so that it can continue to suck the life from our souls. Wake up,
my friends - the emperor has been exposed and, he is naked. Do you have the
courage and the will to see for yourselves?
I hope I have been clear.
ALLEN CONIGLIO
-
Soroush Ebrahimi
- Moderator
- Posts: 4510
- Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:00 pm
Re: classical homeopathy / Hahnemann and magnets
Dear Anna
I am off on a long international journey and need to answer you before I go,
but I am sure that my answers will not be complete - so I hope colleagues
will fill in the gaps that I may leave.
For the sake of clarity, I will place my answers in "" and I have divided by
======.
But I would recommend that you go a good school of homoeopathy - understand
the ins and outs of it, practise a bit and then come out with your
criticisms. I think then you will find people more receptive.
Going back to my 'driving' analogy, I am not denying the fact that some one
who cannot drive is quite able to criticise some one else's driving. But you
need to get in the car first or actually witness the driving - reading about
it makes one rather vulnerable.
However, I find the exercise of answering some of the questions that are
tackled in good schools early on a good reminder of principles.
So thanks for that!
Rgds
Soroush
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:04:02 +0000
From: "Anna de Burgo"
Subject: RE: classical homeopathy / Hahnemann and magnets
Dear Soroush,
Potentially, yes. It is based on scientific principles, of course - as is
everything in nature! Science is only, in its purest form, a study of
nature.
are lacking in conventional medicine!)
Well, maybe they are and maybe they aren't. The laws of physics are pretty
well known and appear everywhere. The law of similars is apparent in
engineering and electronics, for instance. Homeopaths just assume it belongs
to them only, and it has become their catechism.
"Soroush:
So what are you saying? You sound more like a politician to me unable to
give a clear YES/No answer. You wait until you are treated properly and
experience the Hering's laws first hand and we will talk about it then."
========
for NASA.
Maybe so. But then, why is not more scientific method applied to homeopathy?
"Soroush:
How would you like to see this done?
How much resources of time and money will it take?
Who will fund it?"
========
It is the method that will give it the credibility. Homeopaths languish in
the past,
"Soroush:
HOW?"
=========
using antiquated and archaic medical language - "vital force" / "miasms".
Where is modern terminology?
"Soroush:
In your subject - don't you still use Greek names for different type of
column headings? Why don't you change them?
Why do we have to change terminology and add more confusion?
I think you are criticising for the sake of it with out real understanding.
And since when has 'Vital Force' or 'Miasms' become archaic medical
language? Just read a couple of medical text books and we will talk about
this.
Hahnemann criticised confusing medical terminology which was designed to
make the doctors appear more learned than they were - you cannot accuse
homoeopaths of the same thing. In every field there are terms relevant to
that field. What you are saying is akin to Civil Engineers and Architects
having to use a different term for concrete. "
========
Where are modern studies?
"Soroush:
They are there at certain colleges and universities where they teach
homoeopathy.
How many times do you need to prove that if some thing is applied correctly
it works well?
Have you seen BBC2 QED prog (c.1991) ??"
========
Where are expressions of the science that will help modern scientists take
it seriously?
"Soroush:
Joe Rozencwajg has answered you well I think."
========
What kind of science will allow superstition to infiltrate it, in this age?
Why do we still have elements like astrology and shamanism creeping into
homeopathy?
Why do schools like BIH USA have any kind of credibility in homeopathy, when
they openly promote new-age nonsense?
"Soroush:
In any area of thought, you must allow diversity, challenge them and then
exclude them when found faulty or inappropriate.
Unless scientific proof is found for them, astrology and shamanism and have
no room in 'Classical Homoeopathy' and that is why no one discuss them on
this forum.
We cannot be responsible for any one abusing a system.
If a driver through poor application is involved in an accident, can you
blame DRIVING - No.
However, if the school teach poor techniques, then they share the blame and
responsibility.
I am yet to hear astrology and shamanism being taught in a classical school
of homoeopathy- so please STOP spreading rumours, or be more exact with the
points you express."
========
NASA uses phototerapy techniques that can be compared to homeopathy and also
help to shed much light (no pun intended) on homeopathy - why isn't it
happening?
"Soroush:
Please explain a bit more.
Also you need to study a bit of history I think - Please read Harris
Coulter's books - the Divided Legacy in 4 volumes - then you will see how
Homoeopathy has been short of funds. It costs a lot of money to go through
college and learn homoeopathy but some one of your privileges may find that
hard to understand.
Then when you qualify, you need to expand your learning and your practise -
so where is the time and money for 'Research'?
However, I am pleased to advise you that for example Westminster University
in London are doing research and post grad studies are possible.
So here is your chance with your relatively abundant resources, study
homoeopathy and then lead some research. We will then talk about it in 10
years time."
========
The truth is, yes, homeopathy is, or should be, and could be, a science.
But it is a joke science for the most part.
"Soroush:
Please explain your assertion."
========
competent drivers?
We can go with this analogy. If you want to be a taxi driver, you may need
to pass practical aptitude tests to show you can drive OK and not endanger
your passengers! But if you want to be a mechanic and help people with their
"sick" cars, you need to train at a deeper level and learn about the
workings of the machine. Furthermore, if you want to become a engineering
scientist and design or build cars you need to train in involved areas of
science.
"Soroush:
However, is it necessary for a car mechanic to be a good driver - No!
Obviously if you can have someone of good understanding of all aspects of
practical issues then they have the potential of becoming good
practitioners. I have no problem with that - Do research to your hearts
content.
Even the car mechanics do not all understand how certain parts of the car
may work. They know how to mend them.
How many of the average car mechanics do you know that suddenly come up with
a new design?
Also what I think you have to realise is that that we cannot in real terms
answer WHY? to any thing.
At the very best, we may be able to answer How. That however with the
passage of time is often found to be faulty.
If you gather a few Uni Profs of the same subject from different Unis and
ask them to discuss an issue, you will find disagreement amongst them.
Experience and Time then teaches us that these guys could all be wrong. "
========
In the area I am working in right now, which is architecture, an architect
needs to be creative and artistic but must first be familiar with scientific
principles - it is important to know that the beautiful house you design
will not fall down on top of its new owners in the first storm!
"Soroush:
ABSOLUTELY - This is where you are perhaps running ahead of yourself with
your criticisms and where Hahnemann was so far ahead of his time.
Please see aph 3 of Organon 6: (YES RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING OF HIS BOOK!!!)
"If the physician clearly perceives what is to be cured in diseases, that is
to say, in every individual case of disease (knowledge of disease,
indication), if he clearly perceives what is curative in medicines, that is
to say, in each individual medicine (knowledge of medical powers), and if he
knows how to adapt, according to clearly defined principles, what is
curative in medicines to what he has discovered to be undoubtedly morbid in
the patient, so that the recovery must ensue - to adapt it, as well in
respect to the suitability of the medicine most appropriate according to its
mode of action to the case before him (choice of the remedy, the medicine
indicated), as also in respect to the exact mode of preparation and quantity
of it required (proper dose), and the proper period for repeating the dose;
- if, finally, he knows the obstacles to recovery in each case and is aware
how to remove them, so that the restoration may be permanent, then he
understands how to treat judiciously and rationally, and he is a true
practitioner of the healing art."
Here Hn tells us to understand Homoeopathy and to use what resources and
applications are necessary. Perhaps when you have gained these we can have
a more in depth discussion."
========
It is not really good enough to limit homeopathy to the superficial
practical applications.
How does it work?
"Soroush: How does Gravity work. We know its laws and their application but
how does it work? WE DO NOT KNOW! Can we deny Gravity exists - well we will
be a fool if we did.
We may not be exactly sure how Homoeopathy works, but we see it daily work
like a miracle."
========
Does it indeed work? How do we really know?
"Soroush:
Suck it and see!
Let a good homoeopath take your case (with honesty from your side) and you
will see the difference and whether it works. It will be a good and
beneficial experience for you."
========
And if so, how do we explain this?
"Soroush:
Probably when the sciences of Physics and Chemistry have been advanced a bit
more.
And the beauty of this is that in any field of science, the more we know (or
think we know), the more we know HOW LITTLE we know!!
Answering any question in science ALWAYS raises more questions.
Do not forget that in a place of supposed enlightenment (Paris) and a time
supposedly out of the Dark Ages (1990's) Jacque Beneviste's Labs were taken
away from him because what he was finding did not agree with conventional
Science.
So please understand that the interests of the powerful multi-national drug
companies are against us and we as homoeopaths are resource starved.
Perhaps you would kindly consider creating a bursary for someone to do more
research into homoeopathy."
========
In explaining this, can we improve on it or find ways of extending the
technology to new areas? That would be science.
"Soroush:
I am sure steps (although small by your expectations) are being taken.
Believe me, you are not the only one who hungers for this kind of
knowledge."
========
He touches on things that seem to relate to "laying on of hands", but also
speaks clearly about applying magnets. In the mid to late 18th and early to
mid 19th c there was much interest in magnet therapy. He was interested in
areas that related to his own work; if he had had the ability to go further
he would have done. Now we have the ability to understand enormous areas of
digital biology and EM communication systems within the body. Why, for
instance, does degaussing the haemoglobin help T-cells to work better and
enable the role of macrophages? That is an application of magnotherapy and
also for homeopathy, potentially, which would make sense in a modern
scientific context. Why are homeopaths still farting about with "vital
force"? Where are all these "scientific" homeopaths? I have read things from
Vithoulkas that are an attempt to take homeopathy into a modern age - but
that stuff is old now. Where are all those other voices?
"Soroush:
Give us the resources, and I am sure that the great minds that we have in
the Homoeopathic practice will go some way to find the answers. But please
realise that we all have to sacrifice of own money (no grants etc) and our
own times to put ourselves through college and learn and then try to build
the practise. In UK a huge % of the practitioners have two jobs with the
Homoeopathy being a minor one so that they can simply live.
So please provide us the resources and we will do something about it.
Lastly a more polite language is perhaps more in keeping with being a lady.
If you have a problem with understanding the concept of Vital force, then
please share them with us and now doubt one of my learned colleagues will
assist you and all of us will learn more."
=========
Warmly,
Anna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am off on a long international journey and need to answer you before I go,
but I am sure that my answers will not be complete - so I hope colleagues
will fill in the gaps that I may leave.
For the sake of clarity, I will place my answers in "" and I have divided by
======.
But I would recommend that you go a good school of homoeopathy - understand
the ins and outs of it, practise a bit and then come out with your
criticisms. I think then you will find people more receptive.
Going back to my 'driving' analogy, I am not denying the fact that some one
who cannot drive is quite able to criticise some one else's driving. But you
need to get in the car first or actually witness the driving - reading about
it makes one rather vulnerable.
However, I find the exercise of answering some of the questions that are
tackled in good schools early on a good reminder of principles.
So thanks for that!
Rgds
Soroush
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:04:02 +0000
From: "Anna de Burgo"
Subject: RE: classical homeopathy / Hahnemann and magnets
Dear Soroush,
Potentially, yes. It is based on scientific principles, of course - as is
everything in nature! Science is only, in its purest form, a study of
nature.
are lacking in conventional medicine!)
Well, maybe they are and maybe they aren't. The laws of physics are pretty
well known and appear everywhere. The law of similars is apparent in
engineering and electronics, for instance. Homeopaths just assume it belongs
to them only, and it has become their catechism.
"Soroush:
So what are you saying? You sound more like a politician to me unable to
give a clear YES/No answer. You wait until you are treated properly and
experience the Hering's laws first hand and we will talk about it then."
========
for NASA.
Maybe so. But then, why is not more scientific method applied to homeopathy?
"Soroush:
How would you like to see this done?
How much resources of time and money will it take?
Who will fund it?"
========
It is the method that will give it the credibility. Homeopaths languish in
the past,
"Soroush:
HOW?"
=========
using antiquated and archaic medical language - "vital force" / "miasms".
Where is modern terminology?
"Soroush:
In your subject - don't you still use Greek names for different type of
column headings? Why don't you change them?
Why do we have to change terminology and add more confusion?
I think you are criticising for the sake of it with out real understanding.
And since when has 'Vital Force' or 'Miasms' become archaic medical
language? Just read a couple of medical text books and we will talk about
this.
Hahnemann criticised confusing medical terminology which was designed to
make the doctors appear more learned than they were - you cannot accuse
homoeopaths of the same thing. In every field there are terms relevant to
that field. What you are saying is akin to Civil Engineers and Architects
having to use a different term for concrete. "
========
Where are modern studies?
"Soroush:
They are there at certain colleges and universities where they teach
homoeopathy.
How many times do you need to prove that if some thing is applied correctly
it works well?
Have you seen BBC2 QED prog (c.1991) ??"
========
Where are expressions of the science that will help modern scientists take
it seriously?
"Soroush:
Joe Rozencwajg has answered you well I think."
========
What kind of science will allow superstition to infiltrate it, in this age?
Why do we still have elements like astrology and shamanism creeping into
homeopathy?
Why do schools like BIH USA have any kind of credibility in homeopathy, when
they openly promote new-age nonsense?
"Soroush:
In any area of thought, you must allow diversity, challenge them and then
exclude them when found faulty or inappropriate.
Unless scientific proof is found for them, astrology and shamanism and have
no room in 'Classical Homoeopathy' and that is why no one discuss them on
this forum.
We cannot be responsible for any one abusing a system.
If a driver through poor application is involved in an accident, can you
blame DRIVING - No.
However, if the school teach poor techniques, then they share the blame and
responsibility.
I am yet to hear astrology and shamanism being taught in a classical school
of homoeopathy- so please STOP spreading rumours, or be more exact with the
points you express."
========
NASA uses phototerapy techniques that can be compared to homeopathy and also
help to shed much light (no pun intended) on homeopathy - why isn't it
happening?
"Soroush:
Please explain a bit more.
Also you need to study a bit of history I think - Please read Harris
Coulter's books - the Divided Legacy in 4 volumes - then you will see how
Homoeopathy has been short of funds. It costs a lot of money to go through
college and learn homoeopathy but some one of your privileges may find that
hard to understand.
Then when you qualify, you need to expand your learning and your practise -
so where is the time and money for 'Research'?
However, I am pleased to advise you that for example Westminster University
in London are doing research and post grad studies are possible.
So here is your chance with your relatively abundant resources, study
homoeopathy and then lead some research. We will then talk about it in 10
years time."
========
The truth is, yes, homeopathy is, or should be, and could be, a science.
But it is a joke science for the most part.
"Soroush:
Please explain your assertion."
========
competent drivers?
We can go with this analogy. If you want to be a taxi driver, you may need
to pass practical aptitude tests to show you can drive OK and not endanger
your passengers! But if you want to be a mechanic and help people with their
"sick" cars, you need to train at a deeper level and learn about the
workings of the machine. Furthermore, if you want to become a engineering
scientist and design or build cars you need to train in involved areas of
science.
"Soroush:
However, is it necessary for a car mechanic to be a good driver - No!
Obviously if you can have someone of good understanding of all aspects of
practical issues then they have the potential of becoming good
practitioners. I have no problem with that - Do research to your hearts
content.
Even the car mechanics do not all understand how certain parts of the car
may work. They know how to mend them.
How many of the average car mechanics do you know that suddenly come up with
a new design?
Also what I think you have to realise is that that we cannot in real terms
answer WHY? to any thing.
At the very best, we may be able to answer How. That however with the
passage of time is often found to be faulty.
If you gather a few Uni Profs of the same subject from different Unis and
ask them to discuss an issue, you will find disagreement amongst them.
Experience and Time then teaches us that these guys could all be wrong. "
========
In the area I am working in right now, which is architecture, an architect
needs to be creative and artistic but must first be familiar with scientific
principles - it is important to know that the beautiful house you design
will not fall down on top of its new owners in the first storm!
"Soroush:
ABSOLUTELY - This is where you are perhaps running ahead of yourself with
your criticisms and where Hahnemann was so far ahead of his time.
Please see aph 3 of Organon 6: (YES RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING OF HIS BOOK!!!)
"If the physician clearly perceives what is to be cured in diseases, that is
to say, in every individual case of disease (knowledge of disease,
indication), if he clearly perceives what is curative in medicines, that is
to say, in each individual medicine (knowledge of medical powers), and if he
knows how to adapt, according to clearly defined principles, what is
curative in medicines to what he has discovered to be undoubtedly morbid in
the patient, so that the recovery must ensue - to adapt it, as well in
respect to the suitability of the medicine most appropriate according to its
mode of action to the case before him (choice of the remedy, the medicine
indicated), as also in respect to the exact mode of preparation and quantity
of it required (proper dose), and the proper period for repeating the dose;
- if, finally, he knows the obstacles to recovery in each case and is aware
how to remove them, so that the restoration may be permanent, then he
understands how to treat judiciously and rationally, and he is a true
practitioner of the healing art."
Here Hn tells us to understand Homoeopathy and to use what resources and
applications are necessary. Perhaps when you have gained these we can have
a more in depth discussion."
========
It is not really good enough to limit homeopathy to the superficial
practical applications.
How does it work?
"Soroush: How does Gravity work. We know its laws and their application but
how does it work? WE DO NOT KNOW! Can we deny Gravity exists - well we will
be a fool if we did.
We may not be exactly sure how Homoeopathy works, but we see it daily work
like a miracle."
========
Does it indeed work? How do we really know?
"Soroush:
Suck it and see!
Let a good homoeopath take your case (with honesty from your side) and you
will see the difference and whether it works. It will be a good and
beneficial experience for you."
========
And if so, how do we explain this?
"Soroush:
Probably when the sciences of Physics and Chemistry have been advanced a bit
more.
And the beauty of this is that in any field of science, the more we know (or
think we know), the more we know HOW LITTLE we know!!
Answering any question in science ALWAYS raises more questions.
Do not forget that in a place of supposed enlightenment (Paris) and a time
supposedly out of the Dark Ages (1990's) Jacque Beneviste's Labs were taken
away from him because what he was finding did not agree with conventional
Science.
So please understand that the interests of the powerful multi-national drug
companies are against us and we as homoeopaths are resource starved.
Perhaps you would kindly consider creating a bursary for someone to do more
research into homoeopathy."
========
In explaining this, can we improve on it or find ways of extending the
technology to new areas? That would be science.
"Soroush:
I am sure steps (although small by your expectations) are being taken.
Believe me, you are not the only one who hungers for this kind of
knowledge."
========
He touches on things that seem to relate to "laying on of hands", but also
speaks clearly about applying magnets. In the mid to late 18th and early to
mid 19th c there was much interest in magnet therapy. He was interested in
areas that related to his own work; if he had had the ability to go further
he would have done. Now we have the ability to understand enormous areas of
digital biology and EM communication systems within the body. Why, for
instance, does degaussing the haemoglobin help T-cells to work better and
enable the role of macrophages? That is an application of magnotherapy and
also for homeopathy, potentially, which would make sense in a modern
scientific context. Why are homeopaths still farting about with "vital
force"? Where are all these "scientific" homeopaths? I have read things from
Vithoulkas that are an attempt to take homeopathy into a modern age - but
that stuff is old now. Where are all those other voices?
"Soroush:
Give us the resources, and I am sure that the great minds that we have in
the Homoeopathic practice will go some way to find the answers. But please
realise that we all have to sacrifice of own money (no grants etc) and our
own times to put ourselves through college and learn and then try to build
the practise. In UK a huge % of the practitioners have two jobs with the
Homoeopathy being a minor one so that they can simply live.
So please provide us the resources and we will do something about it.
Lastly a more polite language is perhaps more in keeping with being a lady.
If you have a problem with understanding the concept of Vital force, then
please share them with us and now doubt one of my learned colleagues will
assist you and all of us will learn more."
=========
Warmly,
Anna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-
Julian Winston
- Posts: 622
- Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm
Re: classical homeopathy / Hahnemann and magnets
At 2:13 AM -0400 4/21/04, allen coniglio wrote:
[snip the whole thing]
You have been... but....
It would have been a lot easier to read and understand had you not
followed Hahnemann's lead in writing long sentences.
Your exposition was NOT a single sentence, although you wrote it as that.
It is almost impossible to wade though something that comes up as an
endless screen of grey type...
Could you PLEASE divide it down into paragraphs, and perhaps separate
each by a space, so that your message can be read and understood,
rather than plowed through with difficulty.
If you'd like, I'd be happy to give you a hand with doing so.
And, this is NOT tonge in cheek, but a genuine complaint about the
lack of formatting which makes the difference between an easy read
and a wall of type that serves as a bloc to any comprehension.
JW
[snip the whole thing]
You have been... but....
It would have been a lot easier to read and understand had you not
followed Hahnemann's lead in writing long sentences.
Your exposition was NOT a single sentence, although you wrote it as that.
It is almost impossible to wade though something that comes up as an
endless screen of grey type...
Could you PLEASE divide it down into paragraphs, and perhaps separate
each by a space, so that your message can be read and understood,
rather than plowed through with difficulty.
If you'd like, I'd be happy to give you a hand with doing so.
And, this is NOT tonge in cheek, but a genuine complaint about the
lack of formatting which makes the difference between an easy read
and a wall of type that serves as a bloc to any comprehension.
JW
-
Anna de Burgo
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:00 pm
Re: classical homeopathy / Hahnemann and magnets
Dear Dr Rozencwajg,
I have come across these (below), and more.
Well, it is not only the nasty pharmaceutical companies that make money. The
homeopathic pharmacies could sponsor studies very easily, if they wanted to.
So could large schools. Speaking of schools - are all these scientific
studies incorporated into the curriculum, with discussion of their content
and findings? From what I have seen in my search for a decent school, the
answer is no. (Some of them seem to prefer shamanic studies and astrology.)
It seems to me that most homeopathy students and homeopaths prefer to remain
in the dark ages. Is this simply because they cannot understand anything
else, or is it because it would clash with the reason they were attracted to
homeopathy in the first place, i.e. because it is "alternative"? And I am
seeing that the reason the schools tend not to include any kind of proper
science studies is simply that they make more money by teaching it as a
hokey pseudoscience. This way, it will never get anywhere and will always
remain a joke profession.
Warmly,
Anna
_________________________________________________________________
It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today!
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
I have come across these (below), and more.
Well, it is not only the nasty pharmaceutical companies that make money. The
homeopathic pharmacies could sponsor studies very easily, if they wanted to.
So could large schools. Speaking of schools - are all these scientific
studies incorporated into the curriculum, with discussion of their content
and findings? From what I have seen in my search for a decent school, the
answer is no. (Some of them seem to prefer shamanic studies and astrology.)
It seems to me that most homeopathy students and homeopaths prefer to remain
in the dark ages. Is this simply because they cannot understand anything
else, or is it because it would clash with the reason they were attracted to
homeopathy in the first place, i.e. because it is "alternative"? And I am
seeing that the reason the schools tend not to include any kind of proper
science studies is simply that they make more money by teaching it as a
hokey pseudoscience. This way, it will never get anywhere and will always
remain a joke profession.
Warmly,
Anna
_________________________________________________________________
It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today!
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
-
Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
- Posts: 2279
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: classical homeopathy / Hahnemann and magnets
I started a big answer to your allegations, then decided it would be like pissing in a violin and expecting to hear a concerto...................
You have obviously made up your mind, decided to annoy us and deride us, and clearly not read any of the books you claim to have "seen" or even started any study with any school whatsoever.
You clearly have a grudge against someone and try to air it in public.
Well I have better things to do.
So if you want and if this is good for your ego, consider this answer as your "victory", as I am not going to argue with you or try to explain or to demonstrate anything to you.
You are pathetic and pityful.
And if you architectural work is as logical as your discussion on the list, please make sure your name is engraved on the buildings you build, so I can avoid them and not risk to be crushed under their defective conception.
Get a life..........
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
You have obviously made up your mind, decided to annoy us and deride us, and clearly not read any of the books you claim to have "seen" or even started any study with any school whatsoever.
You clearly have a grudge against someone and try to air it in public.
Well I have better things to do.
So if you want and if this is good for your ego, consider this answer as your "victory", as I am not going to argue with you or try to explain or to demonstrate anything to you.
You are pathetic and pityful.
And if you architectural work is as logical as your discussion on the list, please make sure your name is engraved on the buildings you build, so I can avoid them and not risk to be crushed under their defective conception.
Get a life..........
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
-
Hennie Duits
- Posts: 494
- Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:00 pm
Re: classical homeopathy / Hahnemann and magnets
Some time ago I made it a rule in my mail program to transfer any mail by
Anna de Burgo straigth, unread, to the dust bin of my mail program.
Anyone who's not familiar on how to do this: let me know, I'll be glad to
help. It should be obvious to all by now that Anna de Burgo's aim is only to
disrupt.
Take care,
Hennie Duits
Anna de Burgo straigth, unread, to the dust bin of my mail program.
Anyone who's not familiar on how to do this: let me know, I'll be glad to
help. It should be obvious to all by now that Anna de Burgo's aim is only to
disrupt.
Take care,
Hennie Duits
Re: classical homeopathy / Hahnemann and magnets
This from Anna de Burger Queen is obviously a whopper with cheese on!
I am wondering what architecture this person is involved in - probably
building air castles, which of course, we have some remedies for
And as the post is/was about magnets hopefully they will soon start to
repel.
Joy
www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
From: Anna de Burgo
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Minutus] classical homeopathy / Hahnemann and magnets
Dear Dr Rozencwajg,
I have come across these (below), and more.
Well, it is not only the nasty pharmaceutical companies that make money.
The
homeopathic pharmacies could sponsor studies very easily, if they wanted
to.
So could large schools. Speaking of schools - are all these scientific
studies incorporated into the curriculum, with discussion of their content
and findings? From what I have seen in my search for a decent school, the
answer is no. (Some of them seem to prefer shamanic studies and
astrology.)
It seems to me that most homeopathy students and homeopaths prefer to
remain
in the dark ages. Is this simply because they cannot understand anything
else, or is it because it would clash with the reason they were attracted
to
homeopathy in the first place, i.e. because it is "alternative"? And I am
seeing that the reason the schools tend not to include any kind of proper
science studies is simply that they make more money by teaching it as a
hokey pseudoscience. This way, it will never get anywhere and will always
remain a joke profession.
Warmly,
Anna
I am wondering what architecture this person is involved in - probably
building air castles, which of course, we have some remedies for
And as the post is/was about magnets hopefully they will soon start to
repel.
Joy
www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
From: Anna de Burgo
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Minutus] classical homeopathy / Hahnemann and magnets
Dear Dr Rozencwajg,
I have come across these (below), and more.
Well, it is not only the nasty pharmaceutical companies that make money.
The
homeopathic pharmacies could sponsor studies very easily, if they wanted
to.
So could large schools. Speaking of schools - are all these scientific
studies incorporated into the curriculum, with discussion of their content
and findings? From what I have seen in my search for a decent school, the
answer is no. (Some of them seem to prefer shamanic studies and
astrology.)
It seems to me that most homeopathy students and homeopaths prefer to
remain
in the dark ages. Is this simply because they cannot understand anything
else, or is it because it would clash with the reason they were attracted
to
homeopathy in the first place, i.e. because it is "alternative"? And I am
seeing that the reason the schools tend not to include any kind of proper
science studies is simply that they make more money by teaching it as a
hokey pseudoscience. This way, it will never get anywhere and will always
remain a joke profession.
Warmly,
Anna