When is a single remedy not a single remedy?

[Sheri Nakken]

ANNA - what you are missing in the picture and many keep reminding you of,
is the aspect of proving.
The key is a proving was done on the substance to determine the symptoms
produced
Then that substance - be it a simple mineral, plant or complex substance -
is potentized and then matched to a patient with similar symptoms.

Its the proving of that substance that is the guide.

You can't just mix things and hope they combine and have an effect you'd
like to see
If it hasn't gone through a proving you have no way of knowing.

And no one can figure this out...........with their head.
Aphorism 1

At 10:11 PM 03/07/2004 +0000, you wrote:
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[Anna de Burgo]

Dear Dr Rozencwajg,
So, if I understand correctly, there is no known basis to explain, and it
has never been scientifically demonstrated, that the "single" remedy (made
from many parts) is more than the sum of its parts?

Warmly,
Anna

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[Sheri Nakken]

This is a moot point.

It doesn't matter.

Whatever the substance is - what is important is what symptoms it produces
in a proving
That is then the guideline for what symptoms in an ill person it will
match - no matter what it is.

At 06:51 PM 03/08/2004 +0000, you wrote:
and educational benefit of its members. It makes no representations
regarding the individual suitability of the information contained in any
document read or advice or recommendation offered which appears on this
website and/or email postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out
of their use remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site
or its individual members be liable for any direct, consequential,
incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and howsoever
caused.
subject of 'Digest' to minutusgroup@yahoo.com to receive a single daily
digest.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Classical Homeopath
Well Within & Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours (worldwide)
Vaccination Information & Choice Network
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm
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ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL
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[Anna de Burgo]

Dear Sheri,
Actually it matters a great deal. I believe that all of classical
homeopathy's tenet re single / double remedies depends on this one point.
Yes, that is obvious.
Yes, quite right. But this is not the debate. I have clarified my thinking a
little more in my post to Mr Ullman.

Warmly,
Anna

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[Shannon Nelson]

Hi Anna,

Dr. R did give a couple of examples, and alluded to others.
One e.g. I recall, Hepar sulph, is made up of "[a]n impure calcium sulphate,
prepared according to Hahnemann by heating a mixture of calcined oyster
shells and flowers of sulphur." Which I believe would mean it started out
as two "remedies", calc-c and sulphur (someone correct me if I get anything
wrong). But once they have been combined in this particular way, they yield
a third remedy, which shares some of the features of its components, but has
a distinctly different action.

Another example would be any of the "salts", e.g. calc-sulph, mag-phos, etc.
These salts are sometimes prescribed successfully by observing that the case
contains aspects of each element. *But* it's unlikely to be a successful
prescription unless there are also elements unique to the combination (e.g.
"keynotes" of the salt). This is another example of where the combination
is "more than the sum of the parts".

In both of these examples the "combination" is a chemical one, not just a
mixing. Would the same hold true if we e.g. triturate some calcium and some
sulphur and potentize the (non-chemically-bonded) combination? That's more
speculative and I assume would depend upon what the two (or more) remedies
are, and how their energies or effects interact. E.g. remedies have
complementary, antidotal and etc. relationships with each other.

Maybe similar to the example of putting two (or more) people together. In
some cases they'll just occupy space together but each do their own thing;
in other cases there is conflict or interference; and in other cases a
lovely synergistic effect comes about, where creative energies play off of
each other and yield a result better than any could have done on their own.
(Oops, there I go anthropomorphising again! )

So I would say yes, it has indeed been "scientifically demonstrated" that a
single remedy is "more than the sum of its parts".

Shannon
on 3/8/04 12:51 PM, Anna de Burgo at annadeburgo@hotmail.com wrote:

[Paul Booyse]

Hello Anna,

is
etc.

The main point, is that a "combination" remedy such as Hepar is proved as
such. The proving shows a uniqueness which differentiates it from the
individual components. Yes there is also some overlaping similarities with
the parent compounds as well, but it has its own individuality.
"Combination remedies" and the use of multiple remedies are based only on
the provings of the individual components and we have no knowledge of the
combined effects.

Now an argument can be made for proving a combination remedy, but I doubt
this would be of use as it would have to be a simillimum to an inner disease
state of the combined remedies. The remedy needs to cause a similar
disturbance. Now the inner disease state is usually one active state. In
multimiasmatic disease you have a situation of active or latent states i.e.
psora can be latent or active. The active state is the one that is
disordering the vital force, the other is dormant or latent. The remedy
will only have an effect if it has a similar pattern to the active state.
To argue someone could be Aurum and pulsatilla at the same time is the same
as arguing that there exists in nature a pulsatilla plant with gold petals.

Regards,
Paul

[Paul Booyse]

hello Anna,
As scientific as a proving is, thats exactly what we find, the whole differs
from the sum of its parts.

Regards,
Paul

[Anna de Burgo]

Dear Paul,

Interesting.
Which is based on the chemical interactions of the components, before
subjecting the mixture to the usual processes of dynamisation?
Well, apart from the enormous multitude of studies, the like of which simply
aren't apparent anywhere in "traditional" homeopathy.
But such a situation could certainly arise in practice, no?
Nicely put, but doesn't this simply bring us back to the fact that Hahnemann
used several remedies to knock down various different aspects of the disease
(which may have been various different "diseases" within the patient) to
effect a cure?

Warmly,
Anna

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[Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD]

Let me try to tackle that from another angle:

I recently almost conclude a patient's treatment with the help of the remedy Calcarea Bromata, I am not even going to attempt explaining how I got there )
But Calcarea Carbonica or any other Calcarea salt did not cover her case including the specific notion that made me choose this remedy; same goes for Bromium and the Bromium salts.

It is only the combination of both in potentised and proved remedy that had activity.

That single remedy was more that the sum of its chemical constituents.

I am not at liberty to describe the case.

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"

[Paul Booyse]

Hello Anna,

Anythings possible, but I seriously doubt it. It would need to have an
inner disease state which has resulted from the union of two different
disease processes. try comparing that with natural processes and try
combining pulsatilla with a lachesis. Not even venus flytrap comes close.

Calc and Sulphur can combine as a process to give hepar, or with oxygen to
give Calc sulph. Different processes and results giving different remedies.
Anthroposophical medicine uses mineral /plant combinations, where the
mineral is fertilized into the soil of the plant (e.g. Urtica ferro culto or
nettle and iron) But to use this homeopathically we must do a proving.

I just don't know of any disease state that would be matched by 6 single
remedies chucked together and then potentized and proved.
In
i.e.
same
petals.

Hahnemann
disease

Not at the same time and this was in the case of mixed miasma, so e.g first
sulphur (dealing with active psora) then nit ac for the sycosis etc. Always
treating the active state, one remedy at a time. hepar is considered "one
remedy" as is Causticum, Calc carb etc. SIlica is silicon and oxygen etc.
Always a proving first, then apply homeopathy.

Regards,
paul