energetic changes in milk

[andyh]

Robyn wrote:

"It is also known that the normal flow of the secretions of our
endocrine glands (ductless glands) and other glands
are also affected by our emotions.......
There have been cases when an infant has become sick suddenly because of
sucking the breast [sic] of his mother
immediately after she had been in a fit of violent anger."

"Patricia Hatherly" wrote:

Our repertories suggest Calc-p; Cham and Valer in such cases.
If you do, indeed, have cases cured by these remedies selected on this
premise I'd be really interested to know of
them.
To my mind this rubric:

STOMACH: vomiting, child vomits milk, after nursing, mother's anger
after:
calc-c; cham; valer

is one of the several pertaining to breastfeeding that doesn't make
sense to me.
I know of no research that shows that human milk undergoes some sort of
biochemical change due to any emotion in the
mother and I fail to see how it could.
++++++Dear Patricia, your lack of confirmation of this rubric by seeing
it in practice is probably of significance, given your observational
skills and reliability which is evident in your reliable and useful
info imparted on the human milk rx (thank you). As well, you are an
authority on these pediatric rubrics. However, on this point:



In my opinion biochemical changes in mother's milk are not necessary to
make a baby gastrically sick (eg elicit nausea or vomiting). Anger is a
phenomenon of the nonelectromagnetic energies flowing in the nonphysical
bodies (in other words, theoretically higher dimensional than the 3D
realm in which molecular bond-breaking becomes apparent). Energetic
changes in a substance or environment are quite able to modify a
structure or environment in a way not biochemically detectable in order
to make someone ill (or well) given the persons susceptibility (here
biochemical is defined as changes which are the result of bond
breakage). Homoeopathy itself is a case in point. For example, the
homeopathic pharmaceutical process, though verifiable by spectroscopy
(see Reference 1 below), introduces no biochemical changes in an rx
being potentized, yet the remedies' ability to make someone sick ((or
well) is modified by potentization nonetheless. This probably occurs
through the water taking on an imprint of the solute during
potentization by a mechanical clumping or 3D structural changes of that
category (see Reference 2 below).

Another example: a "toxic" individual in a group of people can make
certain sensitive individuals in that group ill, and it has been
observed that nausea can be an effect noted. The etheric influences (ie
changes in non-electromagnetic energies, in this case bioenergies) are
influential, whether structural changes occur or not. Of course there
can be changes in the structure of the liquid, the air, etc from such
influences, but these tend to be subtle and (perhaps in this case)
insufficient to break chemical bonds.

Thus it seems not impossible that the emotional state of the mother is
transmitted in some form energetically through the milk (an elixir ;
structure of which could be modified much the way remedy solute modifies
its solvent during potentization (with "succussion" from breast-bounce
or just running or walking; or without succussion at all) affecting a
peculiarly sensitive infant in some cases, either directly or in
response (anxiety). Anger is stored in the liver, a processor of
carbohydrates, and milk is a sweetened liquid, so the liver could
(theoretically, from a chinese medicine standpoint) be affecting the raw
materials, for example. I have heard theories that potentized
substances (as much as biochemically active ones) are significant in the
operation of the physical body. It is probably not outlandish to assume
that anger could show itself in bodily products.

This is not to suggest that emotions do not ever manifest chemically or
could not in mothers milk. Only that lack of that phenomenon probably
is not sufficient to disprove the premise of this rubric. Thus IMO
biochemical changes should not be a litmus test here. Perhaps a
spectroscopic method (as in the method of reference 1 below--a possible
tool of research in homeopathy in general) would in fact show
significant changes from the emotions of the mother.

Comments welcome.

Patricia wrote:
The Calc-p infant tends to vomit a lot and tends to be "colicky" ;there
were posts on this a week or so ago, and it's
due mostly to the infant < from bovine protein particles in the milk.

++++Do these "bovine particles" enter the breast milk because of
articles of diet (eg beef eating or cows milk drinking)? (are these
allergens (possibly effecting the tubercular subject) or calcium
phosphate related?)
Patricia wrote:
I've thought long and hard as to why Cham and Valer are in this rubric.
A search of the materia medica suggets that
there is a connection between these two remedies in that "Valer is
useful for women who have taken too much chamomille
tea."
As I've never, in 30 years, seen a case of a baby getting sick (ie
vomiting) after a bout of anger in the mother, I'd
be inclined to sugget that this rubric has made it into our lexicon as a
result of old-time Pysician's observing some
sort of proving response to chamomille in an infant; cases of that I
have seen. It has a profound affect on the
neurological system.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.
+++++I guess there are two primary possibilities I can think of right
away (maybe there are others):

A-Sample size-the repertory is such a vast database that any one
practitioner may not see a phenomenon even over a long practice, or miss
it (and anger in mother leading to baby health difficulty is difficult
to confirm)

B-theory correct Your (Patricia's) theories may be correct, and you have
(adeptly) picked up on incorrect assumptions made by past practitioners
e.g. (much as you stated):

--valerian and chamomile herbally as teas and medicaments (practices not
unheard of esp in late 19th century) could simultaneously make the
mother angry (emotional proving sx) and give the baby gastric proving
symptoms, so that the mother's emotion was mistakenly taken as the
forcing factor; when it was a food article.

--(calc-p example)--quality of milk could be a factor improperly
attributed to anger in the mother (or anger is somehow parallel (eg
(theoretically musing here) the mother is also calc-p and perhaps this
type tends to passes a lot of "bovine particles" from diet into the
milk(?) ) at the same time she is a peevish complaining or angry Calc-p
type herself.
Musings I hope only help you in your important work with Milks, Moms,
and Kids. I'm sure many homeopaths will be pleased to have your book
when it is completed.

Best,

Andy

============================
REFERENCES

*******************************************
REFERENCE 1
Subject:
[H] double-beam spectrophotometer
Date:
Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:52:53 EST
From:
Jpgregorich@aol.com
To:
minutus@yahoogroups.com, homeopathy@homeolist.com
Hi all,

A colleague of mine attended a 2 week seminar in India this past summer
hosted by Dr. Ramakrishnan. Apparently at the hospital where the
training took
place, the folks there are working on a method to standardize remedies.
To do
this, they use a computerized double-beam spectrophotometer which passes
beams
of UV light through a solution and records absorption and optical
density. She
related that remedies yield unique patterns on the readings. Not only
are
remedies differentiable, but the potencies yield amplitudes that are
distinct.
Remedies that are not succussed will give flat readings, meaning that
remedial
solution can be identified scientifically.

Is anyone familiar with this research in India? I can find out the name
of
the hospital where this work is being done. If this is indeed true and
replicable, it would give homoepathy a significant boost in the
scientific world!!!
It seems so simple that it is hard to believe no one has attempted this
before. I guess not many people have spectrophotometers in their
office.

Jim Gregorich
============
In a message dated 12/5/03 10:48:29 AM Mountain Standard Time,
nathwani@rogers.com writes:
My understanding is that they are using this method to assure proper
technique is carried out by the pharmacies, ie., the readings of a
tested remedy, say
a Nux Vomica 200C,should yield readings very similar to what the
researchers
come up with.

But what I believe is most amazing, if they can really distinguish
between
remedies and non remedies and one potency vs. another, is that research
of this
type can give homeopathy a big boost in the world of the skeptic
"scientists."

Maybe Cinnabar, who apparently was at this same seminar, can tell us
more.
Jim Gregorich

============
Jim,

This was the Government Homeopathic Medical College of Kerala. Some of
the students
saw the spectrophotometer in action and were suitably impressed. (I,
unfortunately,
did not.) To learn more, you can contact the principal of the College,
Dr. M. Abdul
Lethif, whose e-mail is abdullethifm@hotmail.com.

That's not the only amazing thing we saw. Dr. Lethif has developed a
homeopathic
preparation for treating plants to prevent and cure diseases and pest
infestations. It
also gives produce an amazing shelf life. Unfortunately, it's not yet
available
commercially.

Peace,
Cinnabar DMH

************************************************
REFERENCE 2
Article by list member
Brian Connelly

[Patricia Hatherly]

Dear Andy

Such a long and well-thought out comment as per usual; such a lot of issues
to address here.

I'll interspere my comments in capitals; it'll be easier and quicker
BABIES WHO GET SICK AFTER OUTBURSTS FROM THE MOTHER ARE PROBABLY REACTING
MORE FROM THE SUBTLE, DYNAMIC PERSPECTIVES THAT YOU REFER TO IN BOTH PARAS
BELOW; IE THEY PICK UP ON HER "VIBRATION" ; THAT SHE MAY HAVE JUST BREASTFED
IS PROBABLY IRRELEVANT FROM A HORMONAL/BIOCHEMICAL PERSPECTIVE BUT VERY
RELEVANT FROM AN ENERGETIC PERSPECTIVE. BABIES LIE ACROSS THE HEART CHAKRA
WHILE BEING FED. .

Anger is a
THE BREAST IS AN EXOCRINE GLAND THAT IS PECULIAR IN
THAT IT STORES AS WELL AS MANUFACTURES.
WHEN PROLACTIN SURGES AS IT DOES AS A RESULT OF NIPPLE STIMULATION THE MILK
CELLS BECOME ACTIVE AND MOST OF THE MILK THAT IS DELIVERED TO THE BABY IS
MADE WHILE THE BABY SUCKLES.
ONLY A SMALL AMOUNT OF THE FEED IS ACTUALLY PRE-STORED IN THE BREAST (ABOUT
20% IS LEFT AT THE END OF A FEED AND THIS IS AVAILABLE FOR THE NEXT FEED.
EVEN THOUGH THE BREASTS ARE "DRAINED" AT THE END OF THE FEED, BECAUSE THE
PROLACTIN LEVELS REMAIN HIGH FOR A WHILE AFTER WARDS, THE BREAST CONTINUES
TO PRODUCE WHICH IS WHY THERE IS A FEELING OF FULLNESS BY THE TIME THE NEXT
FEED IS DUE
AS THIS LITTLE BIT OF EXTRA MILK IS ADDED TO THE RESIDUAL MILK.
THIS PHENOMENON SETTLES THE LONGER THE LACTATION LASTS WHEN BREASTS BECOME
MORE EFFICIENT AT PRODUCTION.....SO AS IT'S MOSTLY A DYNAMIC PROCESS, THIS
IDEA OF
BOUNCE-SUCCUSSION IS NOT IMO LIKELY EXCEPT IN THE EARLY WEEKS WHEN THE
BREASTS
TEND TO OVERPRODUCE!

Anger is stored in the liver, AGREED; I OFTEN DISCUSS WITH MY PATIENTS THE
NOTION THAT IN CHINESE MEDICINE THE LIVER IS THE SEAT OF THE EMOTIONS a
processor of
ANDY, THE LIVER IS NOT MUCH INVOLVED IN LACTOGENESIS SO I DON'T THINK THIS
SUGGESTION OF YOURS WILL "WORK". MANY HORMONES ARE INVOLVED IN THE PROCESS
OF MILK MANUFACTURE: HGH; CORTISOL AND INSULIN AFFECT THE STEM CELLS OF THE
ALVEOLI
BUT IT IS PROLACTIN (FROM THE PITUITARY) WHICH IS THE MAIN PLAYER AND IT
COMES INTO ACTION ONLY WHEN THE NIPPLE IS STIMULATED.
I REALLY CAN'T SEE HOW THE MOTHER'S ANGER WILL HAVE ANY IMPACT ON THIS. IT
MAY CERTAINLY HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE OXYTOCIN LEVELS INASMUCH AS THEY MAY BE
DEPRESSED DUE TO EMOTION. THIS WILL AFFECT THE LET DOWN WHICH MEANS THAT
LESS MILK IS
AVAILABLE; NOTHING ELSE.
THE BASIC "RAW MATERIALS" FOR LACTOSE PRODUCTION ARE GLUCOSE AND GALACTOSE;
FATTY ACIDS (LONG CHAIN ARE PLASMA DERIVED),THE OTHERS ARE MANUFACTURED IN
THE BREAST ITSELF FROM ACETATE; MINERALS ARE DERIVED FROM PLASMA AND THE
PROTEIN IS MANUFACTURED IN THE MILK CELL ON THE RIBOSOMES OF THE ENDOPLASMIC
RETICULUM FROM AMINO ACID PRECURSORS; THEY ARE REFINED IN THE GOLGI COMPLEX
AND THEN PLACED IN SECRETORY VESICLES FOR TRANSPORT TO THE APICAL MEMBRANE
OF THE CELL WHERE THEY ARE DELIVERED INTO THE LUMEN.) THIS WHOLE PROCESS IS
DYNAMIC AND ACTIVE WHEN THE NIPPLE IS STIMULATED.
HOWEVER.......SINCE ABOUT 85% OF HUMAN MILK IS WATER THERE IS A POSSIBILITY
THAT WATER CELLS WILL CONTAIN SOME SORT OF VIBRATIONAL MEMORY A LA THE WORK
OF BENVENISTE.
IF THIS IS SO THEN MY CASE RESTS; HORMONES ( AS STATED IN THE ORIGINAL POST
BY ROBYN)PROBABLY HAVE LITTLE TO DO WITH THIS OBSERVED PHENOMENON [RUBRIC]
have heard theories that potentized
THAT COULD CARRY THIS VIBRATION? Only that lack of that phenomenon probably
PROBLEM WITH THE RUBRIC IN SO FAR AS IT IS ONE WHICH MAY HAVE CLINICAL USE
IN SITUATIONS WHERE BREASTFED BABIES SHOW SIGNS OF ILLNESS WHEN THEIR
MOTHERS HAVE AN OUTBURST OF ANGER. HOWEVER IMO THIS WILL BE DUE MORE TO THE
BABY BEING AFFECTED ON A VIBRATIONAL LEVEL FROM THE EXPRESSION OF ANGER AND
NOT FROM SOME SORT OF HORMONAL EXPRESSION IN THE MILK. I REALLY DON'T THINK
FROM WHAT RESEARCH HAS SHOWN ABOUT THE DYNAMICS OF HUMAN MILK THAT THIS IS
POSSIBLE AND I AM EVEN MORE CERTAIN THAT WHEN THIS RUBRIC CAME INTO OUR
LEXICON GOODNESS KNOWS HOW LONG AGO, IT CAME FROM OBSERVATION THAT BABIES
SOMETIMES GOT SICK AFTER A MOTHER'S OUTBURST OF ANGER. I THINK IT'D BE SAFER
TO ASSUME THIS WAS MORE A CASE OF THE BABY PICKING UP ON THE MOTHER'S STATE
RATHER THAN DUE TO ANY CHANGE IN HER MILK.
HOMOEOPATHS HAVE SOME QUAINT, ANTIQUATED NOTIONS REGADING MILK DUE TO
RUBRICS SUCH AS THESE WHICH IS WHY I "BUY" INTO THESE DISCUSSIONS. IDEALLY,
I'D LIKE TO SEE US, AS A PROFESSION, GET MORE UP-TO-DATE WITH OUR
UNDERSTANDING OF JUST WHAT IS INVOLVED. THEN, MAYBE I WON'T GO TO SEMINARS
TO HEAR EMINENT HOMOEOPATHS MAKE STATEMENTS LIKE "SHE WEANED BECAUSE HER
MILK WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH!" WE NEED TO BRING OUR UNDERSTANDING INTO THE 21ST
CENTURY AND NOT WORK FROM POSSIBLE/THEORETICAL SCENARIOS.
Thus IMO
IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO DO THIS BUT WHAT EXACTLY WOULD WE BE LOOKING FOR?
I AGREE THAT A VIBRATIONAL PATTERN CHANGE IS A POSSIBILITY BUT SUGGEST THAT
IT WILL BE DUE TO THE WATER CONTENT AND NOT TO ANY OF THE
BIOCHEMICAL/IMMUNOLOGICAL COMPONENTS; AND CERTAINLY NOT DUE TO ANY HORMONES.
PROTEINS (YES, IN THE CASE OF DAIRY, ANTIGENIC BECAUSE OF TUB MIASMATIC
PREDISPOSITON) AND THE APPROPRIATE IMMUNOGLOBULINS (MOSTLY IgE) DELIVER THEM
THROUGH THE MILK. THE CALC-P INFANT REACTS TO THESE ANTIGENIC PARTICLES BY
"REFUSING MOTHER'S MILK"; S/HE DOES THIS SIMPLY BECAUSE THE BOVINE PARTICLES
INDUCE APNOEA AND THE BABE CAN'T SUCKLE AND BREATHE SIMULTANEOUSLY.
PARTICULAR RUBRIC I REALLY BELIEVE THAT THIS IS THE MOST LIKELY EXPLANATION.
IT'S SOMETHING WE NEED TO STAY OPEN AND ALERT ABOUT AND WORK WITH. I OFTEN
OBSERVE BABIES ELICITING PROVING RESPONSES TO CHAM INGESTED BY THE MOTHER
EITHER AS A TEA OR A HERB.
and perhaps this
SHE'S KEEN TO MOTHER WELL AND HER BABY IS UNSETTLED+++ AND SHE CAN'T FIGURE
THE REASON WHY!
OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE COMPLEXITY OF HUMAN MILK AND NOT BE SO RELIANT ON
SWEEPING GENERALISATIONS MADE A LONG TIME AGO WHEN THE KNOWLEDGE-BASE WAS
DIFFERENT FROM NOW. I'M NOT SUGGESTING WE THROW OUT RUBRICS (IE THE BABY
WITH THE BATH WATER) BUT TRY TO LOOK ON THEM FROM A MORE ENLIGHTENED &
SCIENTIFIC
PERSPECTIVE.
WE NEED TO KEEP IN MIND THAT HOMOEOPATHY IS A SCIENCE AND AN ART AND SCIENCE
IS ALWAYS MOVING FORWARD WITH NEW INFORMATION WHICH WE CAN USE FROM A
DOCTRINE OF SIGNATURES PERSPECTIVE.

Thanks for your insights and best wishes
Patricia

[Rosemary C Hyde Ph D]

Dear Patricia,

Thanks so much for your clear exposition of the dynamics of milk production. I think that gives a clue to a question I asked the group a couple of weeks ago that got no response --

A patient asked me, when I said that homeopaths often give the lactating mother a remedy which is meant for the child, how long the remedy would take to show up in the milk and how long it would last there? She had taken a remedy intending to help her infant, who was suffering an acute, and then instead of nursing, the infant had fallen asleep. He had awakened to nurse only two hours later. I told her I would ask the group, because I didn't know the answer.

I would assume, based on what you said, that since the milk is produced while the baby is suckling, there is no time delay, and that as long as the remedy had not been antidoted in the mother, it would still be affecting her milk production.

I also decided, based on the question making me reflect about something I'd not previously thought through before, that it was probably better to give the remedy directly to the infant by olfaction or by rubbing some on its lips than to rely on the vagaries of lactation and nursing.

How would you have responded to her? (I want to know in case such an issue arises again.).

Thanks.

Rosemary

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Patricia Hatherly]

Dear Rosemary

I don't think we can give an accurate answer to that question while the
"debate" still goes on regarding just what it is in a homoeopathic Rx that
holds the memory.

However I can tell you (based on clinical observation only) that babies can
be affected by the mother taking the Rx if they are susceptible to it.

Later today I have a baby coming in who has broken out in eczema a few days
after my giving the mother a dose of Med 30C. That this is due to the
mother's prescription has yet to be determind but it' s likely.

Generally I give the baby his own Rx (in water). I use a small plastic
medicine cup; place a few mls of boiled filterd water in it and a drop of
the Rx. Babies are amazingly good at drinking from cups when newborn.
Anyway, wetting the lips is the main object of the exercise.

The only time that I don't give a separate Rx to the baby is when the mother
and baby need the same Rx. In that instance I give it to the mother only and
I find it works quite well.

In cases where the mother's and baby's prescriptions are different but close
I'm cautious and defer in favour of the baby. For example if the baby is in
need of Belladonna and the mother is Stram; I hold off giving the mother a
Rx until the baby is in a good space.

regards
Patricia

[Rosemary said}
mother a remedy which is meant for the child, how long the remedy would take
to show up in the milk and how long it would last there? She had taken a
remedy intending to help her infant, who was suffering an acute, and then
instead of nursing, the infant had fallen asleep. He had awakened to nurse
only two hours later. >
while the baby is suckling, there is no time delay, and that as long as the
remedy had not been antidoted in the mother, it would still be affecting her
milk production.
I'd not previously thought through before, that it was probably better to
give the remedy directly to the infant by olfaction or by rubbing some on
its lips than to rely on the vagaries of lactation and nursing.

[Tanya Marquette]

another thought is that the child, who is in very close proximity with the mother, is experiencing the
anger on an energetic level and is responding with upset digestion. it may not be the milk, itself, at all.

tanya

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Dear Colleagues

I have been away for a few days so have not yet read everything that has
been said on this topic - if I am duplicating, please forgive me.

Firstly, if a remedy is given to a lactating mother, the remedy is
immediately available from her milk because homoeopathic remedies are
DYNAMIC.

Secondly, we must have a good reason to give the remedy to the mother and
not the baby.
If the baby has become ill and we can see evidence that it has something to
do with the mother's state, then the mother must be treated and through her
milk the baby is treated also.

Else if we cannot see the link, then the remedy should be dissolved in water
and given by moistening the baby's lips or dropping a couple of drops into
the baby's mouth. But if the cause is the mother, the remedy selected for
the baby will not hold while she is taking mother's milk!

I remember a case presented in the Society of Homoeopath's magazine in the
early 1990's about a Belgian politician who had had a baby and the baby had
had seizures from almost a week on. She had taken the baby to a number of
homoeopaths around the world and all had failed to cure the baby.
She eventually visited a colleague in Netherlands and the homoeopath had
asked for a video of the baby having a seizure.

A few days later the video arrived and what she could see was the mother
totally naked standing and holding the baby having a seizure and then a
female voice saying words to the effect " put the baby to your beautiful
breasts".

The homoeopath had then recalled the mother for another interview and had
discovered that the mother was a lesbian. She had had another female partner
and because she wanted to have a baby; unbeknown to her partner; had got
herself made pregnant by a male friend. When the partner had found out she
had become absolutely furious and after a major angry row had left and the
person who had videoed the baby was her new partner.

The homoeopath had made an interesting observation, that most women getting
out of bed, especially to make a video to send out, would some how cover
themselves. It was therefore to be regarded unusual for this woman to be
naked.

So she took the rubric - NAKED WANTS TO BE and that (with the anger rubrics
etc) had eventually led her to Hyos. Hyos of course cured the case.
(Isn't it easy when you know how!)

I feel it is absolutely unimportant to try and guess at the mechanism of how
the woman's emotions etc are transferred to the baby via her milk. The fact
that we know it happens is sufficient for us to use it as a medium for
treating both mother and baby.

Rgds
Soroush
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]