Off topic - Freedom

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Perhaps not really off topic because the symptoms expressed already
(rejection of authority, not putting up with injustice, defiance, desire to
escape etc) are good homoeopathic symptoms and worthy of discussions and of
course there are maintaining causes making a lot of people ill..

Going back to 9/12/2001 - those who may remember what I wrote about the
absolute horror of the 9/11 incident will recall that I said that basically
the roots of terrorism is a perceived or real sense of injustice. White-wash
will not cure it. You cannot fight terrorism by fighting terrorists (that is
just suppression), because another will come along - you have to attack the
roots by removing the maintaining causes - The Injustice - the illegal
governments, the dictatorships, the thieving, the usurping, the raping
(people and the Earth), the torture, the imprisonment and killing of the
innocent etc. Iraq is a good example.

Freedom is never given - it is ALWAYS taken. (Remember July 4th??)

All evil needs to succeed is for good people to remain silent.

Please get yourselves acquainted with what is happening - I found Michael
Moore's books both educational and entertaining.
When you have read them give them to your friends and ask them to read them
and so on.

Do not allow the freedom to be taken away from the 'land of the free'.
The only tool is EDUCATION (not high class training at expensive
Universities).

Though I think most of the population have been enslaved by capitalism. How
many need to have more than one job to make ends meet? How many have serious
credit problems? If one is severely in debt and in a rush to get the next
loaf of bread are they going to be involved in politics? That is why Stalin
had the food ration system so that people had to queue for hours for their
food. (there was no shortage of food as they all had their portion only the
distribution was poor and there was a lot of wastage.)

What happened to the concept of the Government of the People by the People
for the People?

And my remedy is??
Yes you guessed correct - left to the usurpers, it will be a bullet in the
back of the head for which my family will have to pay for to get my body so
that they can bury it.

Best wishes for 2004.

Soroush
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[Sheri Nakken]

"Though I think most of the population have been enslaved by capitalism. How
many need to have more than one job to make ends meet? How many have serious
credit problems? If one is severely in debt and in a rush to get the next
loaf of bread are they going to be involved in politics? "

Yup, you said it well
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[Tanya Marquette]

well, since we seem to be into it, let me add a definition that rarely gets voiced:

capitalism is not democracy
the two are diametrically opposed.
Capitalism is the belief in capital and whatever it takes to get it; ie, by any means necessary
It results in the consolidation of wealth at the expense of the many
Democracy is based on the belief in the voice of the people; ie, a mass based philosophy
It allows for the sharing of the wealth and the care of everyone.

Freedom and democracy are opposed to capitalism and thus the big divide whether over Iraq
or racism or classism, etc

i wish all a strong and happy new year and may
we prevail in our support of peace and health

tanya

[Shannon Nelson]

My musing has been that capitalism is just one more tool, that can be used
in a variety of ways. (I'm no economist, tho.) I think our problem has
less to do with "capitalism", and more to do with *unbridled* capitalism, or
"capitalism plus egregious greed", or "capitalism without ethics", etc.

I think that no matter *what* form of economy or government we have, it can
be used selfishly or generously. I guess it goes back to "education" again,
but maybe "spiritual education" or "moral education" is what's needed for
this.
on 1/7/04 1:22 PM, tanya at tamarque@frontiernet.net wrote:

[Ananda Ruchira]

Hello all,
Interesting topic.

Let me add a small observation:

Through out the economic history of USA (or any country) there are numerous
economic cycles of inflation-depression, etc. I'm no economist, so I can't
expound so deeply.

An economic historian once observed that every economic depression USA has
suffered (one every 20-30 years) has be only resolved with a war. It's been
pointed out that it wasn't the touted "work-for-food" (I forget the actual
name of the program) that got the Great Depression economy back on track,
it was WW2.

The USA's economy has been in the doldrums since the 1990's. What better
way to revive it (as I hear CNN announcing economic growth for USA) than to
declare a few enemies, launch a few wars... And how more wonderful that
these enemies are so elusive & Hydra headed! Catch one and you've got 10
more to chase. What a great industry!
whether over Iraq
or racism or classism, etc

I'll disagree. capitalism can only survive in a "democracy". they need each
other.
Words from my master:
Democracy is a "foolacracy".
till later.
Sincerely,
Didi Ananda Ruchira
Director, Abha Light
visit: http://home.pacific.net.sg/~rucira/alf
tel: +254 20 787310 / cell: 0733-895466
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[Tanya Marquette]

i beg to differ. the soviet union touted itself as a socialist state but in actuality
functioned as a state form of capitalism
i think that in today's highly complicated societies, especially in the industrialized
states, there is a certain amount of pressure on capitalism to pay lip service to
human rights needs--but that is all that it is. today, in the usa, we are seeing the
rapid stripping of civil rights, especially the freedom of speech and judicial protections,
because capital (in the form of humongous corporations) has control of the government.
in its current arrogance there is little need to pander to the illusion of democratic
concerns such as legitimate electoral processes and privacy. the voice of the people is
no longer feared, or respected.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty: -Thomas Jefferson
tanya
I'll disagree. capitalism can only survive in a "democracy". they need each
other.
Words from my master:
Democracy is a "foolacracy".
till later.
Sincerely,
Didi Ananda Ruchira
Director, Abha Light
visit: http://home.pacific.net.sg/~rucira/alf
tel: +254 20 787310 / cell: 0733-895466
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https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business= ... =GBP&lc=GB
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[Shannon Nelson]

Hm, an interesting line of thought!
I have had some curiosity about how "democracy" can avoid "sinking to the
lowest common denominator" -- which seems to be what we are seeing these
days ("morality" being determined by those who have none, etc.). And yet,
well, I'm accustomed to the idea that democracy is "good", so I'm curious
what you (or your master) feel is an appropriate way to govern?

It keeps appearing to me that most *any* system can work, if and only if
those in charge have "the greatest good for the greatest number" as a goal
(as opposed to lining their own pockets). I'd think this could work in a
democracy (if the elected officials are trustworthy and etc.) or a
benevolent dictatorship, or whatever...

Best wishes,
Shannon
on 1/8/04 4:54 PM, Abha Light Foundation at abhalight@eudoramail.com wrote:

[Tanya Marquette]

BENEVOLENT DICTATORS!

SADDAM WAS A BENEVOLENT DICTATOR--AS LONG AS THERE WAS NO
OPPOSITION. HE ENSURED UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE--FREE. AND THERE
WAS WORK FOR ALL. DURING THE EMBARGO AND 13 YRS OF CONTINUAL
BOMBING, HE DID DISTRIBUTE THE FOOD AND SUPPLIES THAT CAME INTO
THE COUNTRY. BUT WAS THERE FREEDOM, OR HUMAN RIGHTS FOR ALL, OR
EVEN CIVIL LIBERTIES? NOT MUCH. IS THAT THE KIND OF SYSTEM YOU WANT?

TANYA

[Shannon Nelson]

Well personally, I haven't got past the idea that democracy is a good way to
go -- tho obviously we need some modifications from the present situation.
But I would answer just the same to the term "benevolent dictator" -- it (as
any form of government) is a tool, and can be used/implemented for better or
worse.

Dictatorship is more risky, because power is too centralized and therefore
too subject to "whim", overthrow, etc. I think that (disseminated power
base) is a real strength of democracy -- if the Constitution and Bill of
Rights were being honored; and maybe some further helps needed of some
sort....
on 1/8/04 9:05 PM, tanya at tamarque@frontiernet.net wrote:

[Jon van Hoffen]

From where I sit the US looks like a (not so benevolent) dictatorship already. The words used are those of democracy, but, like in Orwell's 1984, have been stripped of their meaning and now mean the exact opposite. I don't think I would want the 'freedom' of George Bush and his mates. Hopefully there will be a return to real freedom at some stage, not only for the Americans, but for all the countries that are now being 'liberated' by the US Forces.
In my opinion there is a real dilemma. There is a tension between the economic freedom of multi-national companies and the limitation of real freedom for everyone else by these same companies. Society as a whole has to set limits to the freedom for a few to gather as much wealth as possible for themselves, while severly limiting basic freedom for the rest of the population.
On the other hand you need some room for people to be able to better their situation, otherwise you end up with a failing system like the former communist regimes.
Unfortunately the benign dictator usually ends up with his fingers in the till and killing and imprisoning people if they try to stop that.
There is only one way as I see it, and that is, to use the slogan from the Australian Democrats "Keep the Bastards honest".
(Unfortunately even the Democrats turned into 'Bastards' when they got a whiff of the power).
Keep exposing the 'bastards'. talk to as many people as possible about the problems and be politically active.

Jon van Hoffen

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