mental/emotional states.
you missed the point completely. I'll try again:
of disease which have strong mental symptoms, some
1. are of originally a disturbance of the VF manifesting in various physical
and mental symptoms, which have subsequently narrowed to a purely mental
expression [treated by homeopathy].
2. others are of purely mental/emotional origin and are treated by
counselling [ie not by homeopathy].
3. others are due to deficiency in diet, and are treated by coreecting the
diet [ie not by homeopathy]. a case in point here is niacin
deficiency-induced schizophrenia or depression due to selenium deficiency.
andrew
mentals diseases
-
Tanya Marquette
- Posts: 5602
- Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2001 11:00 pm
Re: mentals diseases
i am sorry, but i think, andrew, you are missing the point. there is such a thing as emotionally
caused derangements without physical symptoms. i am trying to tell you that
i do not agree with you. a couple of cases and examples have been posted on'
this issue during this discussion. you do not seem to attend these examples or
experiences. it may be true, as Hn stated, that such a derangement is one-sided
and that such states are harder to cure, but they are not necessarily uncurable by
homeopathy. and despite the fact that some M/E states are caused by nutritional
deficiencies, not all such cases are. the opposite, though, is also true and that
is that some physical states are caused by M/E states and that is the level on
which the case will be cured.
tanya
caused derangements without physical symptoms. i am trying to tell you that
i do not agree with you. a couple of cases and examples have been posted on'
this issue during this discussion. you do not seem to attend these examples or
experiences. it may be true, as Hn stated, that such a derangement is one-sided
and that such states are harder to cure, but they are not necessarily uncurable by
homeopathy. and despite the fact that some M/E states are caused by nutritional
deficiencies, not all such cases are. the opposite, though, is also true and that
is that some physical states are caused by M/E states and that is the level on
which the case will be cured.
tanya
-
Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: mentals diseases
Hi Tanya,
Could you refresh me on a couple of the examples?
I'm not sure I'm clear on what's meant by "physical symptoms". Are you
considering generals and modalities such as strong temp preferences, food
preferences, physical sensitivities, etc., to be "symptoms", or by
"symptoms" do we specifically mean physical disorders?
Shannon
on 1/21/03 1:54 PM, tanya marquette at tamarque@frontiernet.net wrote:
Could you refresh me on a couple of the examples?
I'm not sure I'm clear on what's meant by "physical symptoms". Are you
considering generals and modalities such as strong temp preferences, food
preferences, physical sensitivities, etc., to be "symptoms", or by
"symptoms" do we specifically mean physical disorders?
Shannon
on 1/21/03 1:54 PM, tanya marquette at tamarque@frontiernet.net wrote:
-
Tanya Marquette
- Posts: 5602
- Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2001 11:00 pm
Re: mentals diseases
i think there was one example of a psycosis with no physical sx given by someone else. I mentioned
the idea of dis-eased states resulting from M/E abuse with no physical sx. and people could live with a very
high level of anxiety without physical sx. I also noted that even in dealing with some
physical states, the exciting cause is emotional and that is what is being treated.
i dont think i consider modalities to be physical sx. i think it could be confusing at times. for
example, coldness. agg by coldness could be a modality. however, always being cold could
be taken as a physical sx. so once again, the old adage--in each individual case!
tanya
the idea of dis-eased states resulting from M/E abuse with no physical sx. and people could live with a very
high level of anxiety without physical sx. I also noted that even in dealing with some
physical states, the exciting cause is emotional and that is what is being treated.
i dont think i consider modalities to be physical sx. i think it could be confusing at times. for
example, coldness. agg by coldness could be a modality. however, always being cold could
be taken as a physical sx. so once again, the old adage--in each individual case!
tanya
-
Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: mentals diseases
Thanks Tanya,
Okay, I think I see.
I don't remember reading the example of psychosis with no sxs (can anyone
re-post for me??), so can't comment. But the others, e.g. emotional upset
resulting from abuse, or anxiety from a M/E cause (anxiety could also have a
physical cause, e.g. glandular malfunction, I believe?), this could be
lacking in physical sxs simply because it hasn't impacted the VF that much
yet -- the disorder is still localized at its point of origin. Hahnemann
says that this might be treatable simply by advice, encouragement, etc. We
know it can also be treated with remedies, e.g. as with any emotional
trauma.
But (if I read it right) Andrew wasn't talking about just *any* emotional
upset, but specifically about deep mental disease, e.g. psychosis. This is
a different situation.
I'm still unsure about what he means there, tho; hope to hear more.
But, once the disease has become "one-sided", meaning simply that the
symptom picture is not clear, it becomes harder to recognize the simillimum.
Also, a serious disease (e.g. psychosis, which limits the person's freedom
in the deepest sort of way!) has gone *entirely* to the interior, and no
longer expresses in more exterior ways *at all*, that means (I was taught)
that the VF is sort of giving up, that it no longer has the vitality to
"bother with" expressing physical symptoms that used to be there. Analogous
to let's say a cancer patient who shows nothing distinguishing in the case
(no modalities, strong food prefs/avers, no particular loves, hates or
sensitivities, etc.), only the physical symptoms directly attributable to
the cancer -- I was taught that is the worst prognosis, in part because you
have almost nothing to prescribe on -- "no case" -- and in part because it
means that the VF is so depleted.
What I'm hoping he'll clarify, tho, is whether he's saying that psychosis
without physical sxs *may* be incurable because the needed remedy may not be
found (which would then mean that if you *can* find the right remedy, you
*could* cure it) or whether he meant something else.
I gave an example of a psychotic who responded *very* well (at least in
short run; no long term f/u available) to a remedy given on the basis of his
observed behavior, with no physical symptoms taken. But I don't know
whether that addresses Andrew's issue or not...
Best,
Shannon
on 1/21/03 8:28 PM, tanya marquette at tamarque@frontiernet.net wrote:
Okay, I think I see.
I don't remember reading the example of psychosis with no sxs (can anyone
re-post for me??), so can't comment. But the others, e.g. emotional upset
resulting from abuse, or anxiety from a M/E cause (anxiety could also have a
physical cause, e.g. glandular malfunction, I believe?), this could be
lacking in physical sxs simply because it hasn't impacted the VF that much
yet -- the disorder is still localized at its point of origin. Hahnemann
says that this might be treatable simply by advice, encouragement, etc. We
know it can also be treated with remedies, e.g. as with any emotional
trauma.
But (if I read it right) Andrew wasn't talking about just *any* emotional
upset, but specifically about deep mental disease, e.g. psychosis. This is
a different situation.
I'm still unsure about what he means there, tho; hope to hear more.
But, once the disease has become "one-sided", meaning simply that the
symptom picture is not clear, it becomes harder to recognize the simillimum.
Also, a serious disease (e.g. psychosis, which limits the person's freedom
in the deepest sort of way!) has gone *entirely* to the interior, and no
longer expresses in more exterior ways *at all*, that means (I was taught)
that the VF is sort of giving up, that it no longer has the vitality to
"bother with" expressing physical symptoms that used to be there. Analogous
to let's say a cancer patient who shows nothing distinguishing in the case
(no modalities, strong food prefs/avers, no particular loves, hates or
sensitivities, etc.), only the physical symptoms directly attributable to
the cancer -- I was taught that is the worst prognosis, in part because you
have almost nothing to prescribe on -- "no case" -- and in part because it
means that the VF is so depleted.
What I'm hoping he'll clarify, tho, is whether he's saying that psychosis
without physical sxs *may* be incurable because the needed remedy may not be
found (which would then mean that if you *can* find the right remedy, you
*could* cure it) or whether he meant something else.
I gave an example of a psychotic who responded *very* well (at least in
short run; no long term f/u available) to a remedy given on the basis of his
observed behavior, with no physical symptoms taken. But I don't know
whether that addresses Andrew's issue or not...
Best,
Shannon
on 1/21/03 8:28 PM, tanya marquette at tamarque@frontiernet.net wrote:
Re: mentals diseases
I think you need to be really sure about what you mean by 'physical'
symptoms - all diseased states (even psychosis) will have an observable
physical symptom picture, even if it is only a few symptoms.
Regards, Joy
shannon wrote
_________________________________________________________________
Surf together with new Shared Browsing
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symptoms - all diseased states (even psychosis) will have an observable
physical symptom picture, even if it is only a few symptoms.
Regards, Joy
shannon wrote
_________________________________________________________________
Surf together with new Shared Browsing
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/brow ... 74&DI=1059
-
Tanya Marquette
- Posts: 5602
- Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2001 11:00 pm
Re: mentals diseases
shannon,
i guess it was your example i was referring to. maybe it is my never say die attitude, but i think that
all cases need looking in to. one sided cases may mean a weakened VF, but not a dead one. and
we may just not have the right rx in our books yet for a 'difficult' case. and that is true for any type of case.
in ten yrs i have yet to find a rx that is long term curative for myself altho many short term positive results.
and many thin layers of long term cure. i go back again and again to one of my first learnings: in each
individual case!
tanya
i guess it was your example i was referring to. maybe it is my never say die attitude, but i think that
all cases need looking in to. one sided cases may mean a weakened VF, but not a dead one. and
we may just not have the right rx in our books yet for a 'difficult' case. and that is true for any type of case.
in ten yrs i have yet to find a rx that is long term curative for myself altho many short term positive results.
and many thin layers of long term cure. i go back again and again to one of my first learnings: in each
individual case!
tanya
-
Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: mentals diseases
Hi Joy,
I am definitely out of my depth in talking about treatment of psychosis!
Pretty much just repeating what I *think* recall being told.
By "observable physical symptom picture", what sorts of things are you
referring to, if you could give a general idea? I know there will (or may)
be things such as mannerisms, gestures, posture, position of sleep, and
presumably food likes and dislikes (and perhaps specific sensitivities, if
the person is not already too isolated) -- and I gather that in some cases
these are enough for successful prescription.
But I'm also trying to understand better why Hahnemann refers to deep mental
disease as "one-sided", and why Andrew makes the leap (or apparently does)
to the idea that it's incurable...
Thanks!
Shannon
on 1/22/03 4:00 AM, Joy Lucas at joylucas_speaktv@hotmail.com wrote:
I am definitely out of my depth in talking about treatment of psychosis!
Pretty much just repeating what I *think* recall being told.
By "observable physical symptom picture", what sorts of things are you
referring to, if you could give a general idea? I know there will (or may)
be things such as mannerisms, gestures, posture, position of sleep, and
presumably food likes and dislikes (and perhaps specific sensitivities, if
the person is not already too isolated) -- and I gather that in some cases
these are enough for successful prescription.
But I'm also trying to understand better why Hahnemann refers to deep mental
disease as "one-sided", and why Andrew makes the leap (or apparently does)
to the idea that it's incurable...
Thanks!
Shannon
on 1/22/03 4:00 AM, Joy Lucas at joylucas_speaktv@hotmail.com wrote:
-
Rosemary Hyde
- Posts: 403
- Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:00 pm
Re: mentals diseases
One of the hardest aspects of treating such one-sided diseases, even when
there are a few observations one can make to enter as "symptoms" is that the
patient is generally a very poor self-observer, so that assessing progress
in follow-up visits to see if the remedy is beginning to act is virtually
impossible -- no feedback. Obviously, sometimes the remedy does act on the
observable features, and then one can presume, absent any usable feedback
from the individual, that the remedy is useful. For instance, with a
psychiatric patient who had previously been all over the place in her
discourse and quite agitated, when I saw her yesterday, she was distinctly
calmer, although she could not say if the remedy had been acting in any way.
I assumed from that observable difference that it was, and told her to
continue taking it (LM potency). Another thing that happens in such
one-sided cases SOMETIMES (certainly not always) is that more symptoms
emerge as a result of the remedy. The patient thinks this is terrible, of
course, but it gives a better basis for evaluating the case. Of course,
there are one-sided diseases where the patient never is able to observe
anything else except the one dominant symptom complex that brought them in,
and no observable differences occur. I've had to conclude in a couple such
cases that there was no way I could treat these patients, because I could
get no indications of how or if the treatment was acting (i.e., it could
have acted on an energetic level, or affected older symptoms, but the
patient was totally unaware of either sphere of action). One of these was
the unfortunate case over a year ago, that I shared with the group online,
where the man was suffering from rapidly developing blindness from macular
degeneration. He could think of nothing else, and could notice nothing
else. So there were no valid symptoms, other than the basic pathology, on
which to prescribe, and no immediate indications of remedy reactions -- and
I couldn't give him the whole list of possible remedies fast enough to
forestall the blindness, which soon became a settled fact. Once the macula
is destroyed, its restorability is highly unlikely, as with other
destructive pathological changes.
I've since wondered if "monomania" would be a valid rubric to use in such
relentlessly one-sided cases --- anyone have any experience along these
lines?
I suspect Dr. Ramakrishnan's approach, which I didn't know at the time of
the above cited case, of using one of a few remedies strongly related to the
dominant pathology, and repeating high potencies in split doses weekly,
alternating with similar doses of a related nosode, is probably one of the
most likely strategies in terms of possible success for cases such as this
where classical case analysis is impossible. Certainly he's had an
impressive track record of success in treating many otherwise "incurable"
pathological processes.
In any case, strongly one-sided cases are extremely difficult to treat, if
not actually incurable, because of the paucity of symptoms on which to base
a prescription. That applies whether the one-sided disease is mental or
physical in its presenting symptoms.
Interesting subject. Rosemary
there are a few observations one can make to enter as "symptoms" is that the
patient is generally a very poor self-observer, so that assessing progress
in follow-up visits to see if the remedy is beginning to act is virtually
impossible -- no feedback. Obviously, sometimes the remedy does act on the
observable features, and then one can presume, absent any usable feedback
from the individual, that the remedy is useful. For instance, with a
psychiatric patient who had previously been all over the place in her
discourse and quite agitated, when I saw her yesterday, she was distinctly
calmer, although she could not say if the remedy had been acting in any way.
I assumed from that observable difference that it was, and told her to
continue taking it (LM potency). Another thing that happens in such
one-sided cases SOMETIMES (certainly not always) is that more symptoms
emerge as a result of the remedy. The patient thinks this is terrible, of
course, but it gives a better basis for evaluating the case. Of course,
there are one-sided diseases where the patient never is able to observe
anything else except the one dominant symptom complex that brought them in,
and no observable differences occur. I've had to conclude in a couple such
cases that there was no way I could treat these patients, because I could
get no indications of how or if the treatment was acting (i.e., it could
have acted on an energetic level, or affected older symptoms, but the
patient was totally unaware of either sphere of action). One of these was
the unfortunate case over a year ago, that I shared with the group online,
where the man was suffering from rapidly developing blindness from macular
degeneration. He could think of nothing else, and could notice nothing
else. So there were no valid symptoms, other than the basic pathology, on
which to prescribe, and no immediate indications of remedy reactions -- and
I couldn't give him the whole list of possible remedies fast enough to
forestall the blindness, which soon became a settled fact. Once the macula
is destroyed, its restorability is highly unlikely, as with other
destructive pathological changes.
I've since wondered if "monomania" would be a valid rubric to use in such
relentlessly one-sided cases --- anyone have any experience along these
lines?
I suspect Dr. Ramakrishnan's approach, which I didn't know at the time of
the above cited case, of using one of a few remedies strongly related to the
dominant pathology, and repeating high potencies in split doses weekly,
alternating with similar doses of a related nosode, is probably one of the
most likely strategies in terms of possible success for cases such as this
where classical case analysis is impossible. Certainly he's had an
impressive track record of success in treating many otherwise "incurable"
pathological processes.
In any case, strongly one-sided cases are extremely difficult to treat, if
not actually incurable, because of the paucity of symptoms on which to base
a prescription. That applies whether the one-sided disease is mental or
physical in its presenting symptoms.
Interesting subject. Rosemary
Re: mentals diseases
someone else.
we have no knowledge of whether there were any physical symptoms before or
accompanying the mental onslaught. frankly i woul dbe very surprised if not.
but maybe someone else can give a verified example of this.
physical sx.
did you give an example of this [sorry i have forgotten]?
sx.
no palpitations? heavy breathing? hot or cold flushes? is this possible?
andrew
Hi Tanya,
Could you refresh me on a couple of the examples?
I'm not sure I'm clear on what's meant by "physical symptoms". Are you
considering generals and modalities such as strong temp preferences, food
preferences, physical sensitivities, etc., to be "symptoms", or by
"symptoms" do we specifically mean physical disorders?
Shannon
on 1/21/03 1:54 PM, tanya marquette at tamarque@frontiernet.net wrote:
such a
that
posted on'
examples
and
level on
physical
the
deficiency.
and
regarding the
or
email
remains
punitive
digest.
and
regarding the
or
email
remains
punitive
digest.
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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or advice or recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or
email postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use
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we have no knowledge of whether there were any physical symptoms before or
accompanying the mental onslaught. frankly i woul dbe very surprised if not.
but maybe someone else can give a verified example of this.
physical sx.
did you give an example of this [sorry i have forgotten]?
sx.
no palpitations? heavy breathing? hot or cold flushes? is this possible?
andrew
Hi Tanya,
Could you refresh me on a couple of the examples?
I'm not sure I'm clear on what's meant by "physical symptoms". Are you
considering generals and modalities such as strong temp preferences, food
preferences, physical sensitivities, etc., to be "symptoms", or by
"symptoms" do we specifically mean physical disorders?
Shannon
on 1/21/03 1:54 PM, tanya marquette at tamarque@frontiernet.net wrote:
such a
that
posted on'
examples
and
level on
physical
the
deficiency.
and
regarding the
or
remains
punitive
digest.
and
regarding the
or
remains
punitive
digest.
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
Homeopathy Online Courses!
http://www.minutus.org/course.htm
ATTENTION PLEASE:
The Minutus Group is established purely for the promotion of Homoeopathy
and educational benefit of its members. It makes no representations
regarding the individual suitability of the information contained in any
document read or advice or recommendation offered which appears on this
website and/or email postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out
of their use remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site
or its individual members be liable for any direct, consequential,
incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and howsoever
caused.
****
If you do not wish to receive individual emails, send a message with the
subject of 'Digest' to ashahrdar@yahoo.com to receive a single daily digest.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
minutus-unsubscribe@egroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Homeopathy Online Courses!
http://www.minutus.org/course.htm
ATTENTION PLEASE:
The Minutus Group is established purely for the promotion of Homoeopathy and
educational benefit of its members. It makes no representations regarding
the individual suitability of the information contained in any document read
or advice or recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or
email postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use
remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its
individual members be liable for any direct, consequential, incidental,
special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and howsoever caused.
****
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