Minutus

Hi Joy,
In the "defiant" rubric, in the macrep (the version I have), Bar-C and Caust are the only remedies in bold. The rubric itself has 29 remedies. Bar-C is entered under "Gal" - Gallavardin? In the hard copy Synthesis it does not appear under "defiant", but it does show up under "obstinate" and "quarrelsome". This also departs from the view of Bar-C as timid, although obstinacy can be quiet stubborn-ness rather than loud defiance.
By the same token, in macrep Bar-C shows under "intellectual", here entered by Boger, but does not show up in Synthesis. There seems to be a standard picture of bar-c as shy, timid, retiring, fearful and probably retarded, but a macrep search also shows "defiant", "intellectual", "passionate" - indicating a different picture that is also part of the remedy. My patient does all the "peeking behind hands" etc., but also can present differently as she gets used to strangers. Are you saying that all Bar-C patients have been put down? You seem to present a very defined picture of a remedy as being the only picture that can be useful - if that is the case, where do all these rubrics come from?
Regarding deceit - here we possibly move into semantics. There is deceit as in slyness, lying, desire to deceive. Bar-C doesn't appear here. On the other hand there is secretive behaviour (both macrep and synthesis), in this case behaviour designed to upset the parent. This is a child who is intelligent, thinks up ways to upset the parent without direct confrontation (or sometimes with), hides her intelligence with strangers, and can present as mildly retarded to the extent of drooling. To me this covers the extended picture of Bar-C - although it's always possible that someone else could come in with a different analysis. In addition, she may move towards something completely different.
Regarding Agaricus - I don't know whether the "heavy father figure" idea came from, it reached me through osmosis during studies and doesn't seem useful. In general I don't like relying on these "sort of essences", as they limit the remedy picture and can cause me to miss a remedy that may well fit. Chillblains are far more useful!
Regards,
Vera

Joy Lucas wrote:
Dear Vera, to try and answer your points...

I personally find it hard to understand how Bar carb is in the
'defiant' rubric because they are so timid and dependent. Even when
they think they are being laughed at or put down they tend to retreat
and hide rather than stand defiant.

Can you say where the agaricus 'overwhelmed by some heavy duty father
figure' comes from. It does have delusions about being diminished and
also delusion about having to confess their sins at the gate of hell
and contrary to that there is also delusion he is a great person. I see
this more as the oscillating features you find in Agaricus - a mixture
of self willed defiance and indifference. The self willed state is one
of defiance and usually defiance takes some degree of fearlessness.
They really do crazy things and because they 'have' to do them they
will do them without your knowledge, hence the secretive behaviour.

The deception issue is also interesting. In Baryta carb I would read
this again as a 'hiding' - they really do hide behind their hands and
peek a look at you but not out of deception but because they are
scared. They adopt this stance out of safety because they have been put
down so much, it is a protection.

I could sort of imagine how they might (when they feel they can) try to
be defiant as a way of taking the opportunity when they feel strong but
they go over the top but not in a deceptive way, say like the spider
rx. Can you say more about how you see the deception?

Agaricus is quite a mixture of temperature modalities. Being one of the
top rx for chilblains you can see how they might be chilly but burning
at the same time - so you might see both a poor circulation that allows
for chilblains to develop but then I have known Agaricus to be so
burning hot they arrive on a really cold day with few clothes on. So
quite a mixture re temperatures.

Hope useful, best wishes, Joy
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.blogspot.com

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I am only painting the picture as I understand it and trying to open
up ideas about notions of defiance, intellectual, deceit, etc although
I have to say I am wary of additions in reps especially if they seem to
go astray and even more so if they suddenly gain a high ranking. It
seems rubrics are growing all the time. But if these 'types' can be
re-interpreted back into the sx picture and then properly understood
then that is a learning tool for us all.

Baryta is mistrustful because of the way they have been treated and
away from the Baryta picture this could establish all sorts of
behaviours and call into question other rx but I am just trying to
understand it in terms of Baryta.

I don't know how old the rubric 'intellectual' is but what does it
mean? It could just mean that the main affinity is to the mind sx.

'Passionate' is in use because of the childish behaviour that arises in
Baryta - part of the silly behaviour they are prone to and I imagine
that this is a possible application of the 'defiant' as well and would
be useful in elderly people who need this rx - it is part of the
'senile' state or a return to childhood in later years.

The main sensation of Baryta (from my understanding, I am sure others
could contribute to this) is that of a sensation as if forced through a
narrow place - this has a relevance to the birth canal (childhood
remedy) as well as being put down emotionally, held back intellectually
and hence the learning difficulties and shy and mistrustful behaviour.

Best wishes, Joy
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.blogspot.com
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Oh dear, is "passionate" really only silly childish behaviour?! Time to rethink... (I'd put in a "brackets smiley" here but I can't stand 'em, no offence meant to those who use them)
As I understand it Gallavardin and Boger aren't really recent additions, I would think both are bona fide, but certainly in studying Bar-C these additions gave a more complex view - which I think is more appropriate to human beings. This is especially true where there is developmental delay in infants, who not infrequently go on to show that they are intellectually gifted, and it seems that remedies like bar-c can play an important part.
Thanks Joy and regards,
Vera

Joy Lucas wrote:
I am only painting the picture as I understand it and trying to open
up ideas about notions of defiance, intellectual, deceit, etc although
I have to say I am wary of additions in reps especially if they seem to
go astray and even more so if they suddenly gain a high ranking. It
seems rubrics are growing all the time. But if these 'types' can be
re-interpreted back into the sx picture and then properly understood
then that is a learning tool for us all.

Baryta is mistrustful because of the way they have been treated and
away from the Baryta picture this could establish all sorts of
behaviours and call into question other rx but I am just trying to
understand it in terms of Baryta.

I don't know how old the rubric 'intellectual' is but what does it
mean? It could just mean that the main affinity is to the mind sx.

'Passionate' is in use because of the childish behaviour that arises in
Baryta - part of the silly behaviour they are prone to and I imagine
that this is a possible application of the 'defiant' as well and would
be useful in elderly people who need this rx - it is part of the
'senile' state or a return to childhood in later years.

The main sensation of Baryta (from my understanding, I am sure others
could contribute to this) is that of a sensation as if forced through a
narrow place - this has a relevance to the birth canal (childhood
remedy) as well as being put down emotionally, held back intellectually
and hence the learning difficulties and shy and mistrustful behaviour.

Best wishes, Joy
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.blogspot.com

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I'm enjoying this "Dueling Portraits of Bar-c"! (er, sorry...)
FWIW, I was taught that people who need baryta carb will have an area
of "backwardness" somewhere, but not necessarily on the mental level.
We were told to not rule out bar-c for someone who is quite intelligent
in fact, and quite "with-it" intellectually; it can even be needed by
e.g. lawyer, scientist, whatever--but the area of "backwardness" could
be something physical, e.g. some sort of physical (possibly glandular)
underdevelopment.
Shannon

Didn't realise it was a duel

This kind of 'intelligence' wouldn't be prescribe on though would it
and yes the physical development can be held back in Baryta as you say
in glands, build, height etc. Its all in the MM's

And the 'passionate' I was referring to is with reference to Baryta not
the rubric. Best wishes, Joy
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.blogspot.com
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....or social backwardness: brilliant mind, very good at individual sports
but when it comes to mixing and mingling, a total disaster....
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".

I used Baryta Sulph in a child who was so clever and manipulative .
Refusing to go to school because of fear of being left out and laughed
at. Also hiding under bed clothes.
What I would like to understand is that sometime later he became
paranoid about a spirit attacking him and because his Mum responded well
to Rhus Tox once and there was restlessness I used that which eradicated
that state instantly. Then later his tummy trouble and anxiety
returned which some years ago always settled with Platina [a remedy
his Dad needs from time to time] by some serendipitous event I had been
studying Nat Carb and used that[a 200c in water and a few sips. Within
30 mins he went through some old states then balanced] . He then had a
successful school camp [a miracle considering his anxious vulnerable
state ]and this am some recurrence of tummy stuff. I have advised Nat
Carb again but with an extra dilution. The allopathic system wanted to
use antidepressants. Was Nat Carb the remedy he should have had all along???
I wish I understood, Jean

Joy Lucas wrote:

I didn't realise it was a duel between two different pictures either - I do believe it connects in with the multifacetedness of human beings.
I've enjoyed this discussion in that it's made me compare between the repertories I have and look at where/who the rubrics came from. I wouldn't have prescribed on the intelligence alone, but it made an interesting part of the case.
Regards,
Vera
Joy Lucas wrote:
Didn't realise it was a duel

This kind of 'intelligence' wouldn't be prescribe on though would it
and yes the physical development can be held back in Baryta as you say
in glands, build, height etc. Its all in the MM's

And the 'passionate' I was referring to is with reference to Baryta not
the rubric. Best wishes, Joy
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
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I wonder if this could be what was meant by the rubric
"intellectual"--being "brainy" isn't pathological--well, some might
think so (smile)--but if the intellect is engaged at the expense of
emotional and social interaction?? (I was trying to figure out *why*
that rubric is there at all...)
Shannon

The "passionate" reference I use is in the Baryta carb proving, #4
"Extremely contrary, irritable humor, passionate about trifles."

The most stunning turn around on this symptom I've seen was in a case where
two 1 and 1/2 year old boys (premature identical twins) who would not or
could not play with each other, or any other children, without becoming
extremely agitated, upset and clingy - #21 Indisposed to play, of children.
During a home consultation they would not show any curiosity or interact the
way most kids do, just fight and cry a lot. It was as if you even looked at
them the wrong way, it would set off a crying spell. The mother had recently
given birth to another baby as well, so there were 3 kids under two years of
age. It was a second marriage for the husband whose first family were all
grown, there were financial concerns, and he didn't particuarly want to be
in the position he now found himself in with 3 new children. There was a
general feeling in the home like everybody was under so much pressure and
everything needed to be hurried up lest it cause more disruption. I'd been
using Pulsatilla and then Silica in the beginning with no real results and
then moved to Baryta carb. In no time at all, the twins started playing
well and interacting with other kids at daycare. So apart from the timidity
and mistrust angle, don't forget the amazing temper tantrums they can throw
as well, maybe because of the internal or external pressures they feel
they're under.

Chris.
P.s. You can't stand smileys? Interesting, I can't stand abbreviations, like
H. for Hahnemann, or thx or U etc. Tsk!