Minutus

HI Shannon,
What an entertaing post there - I completely missed all this
unfortunately ... we had a cyclone of our own here in Chennai...

So, If I may add to your personal opinion I'd say -
I've been tyring to understand this experience of "wholeness" in my
own life (soul) while simultaneously working on miasms. HEre in India
the Hindus call it "communion with God" or Salvation. Really the
Christian concept of salvation is very much the same thing. Please do
read on - as its important to have some clarity here.

I was saying - the Wholeness is intimacy with God (in Spirit) - which
casues us to start making choices that are (morally) Good to maintian
this intimacy and hence maintian this "Wholeness".

So I'd say is what Adam and Eve did not have was this Itimacy and
wholeness with God which allowed them (both him and Eve) to be
decieved or make a choice against God (not morally right).

The result was - a human life on earth with it suffering, etc and of
course alienation from God. THis is original Sin.

What each human being seeks to - Christians as well as Hindus, and
probably others as well (Buddhist) - is to restore this relationship
and get out of this "earthly" existance. We do this through our SOULS.

My educated opinon is: I DO NOT see miasm fitting into this whole
process at all - and it will be a misconception to see it as such -
and definitely not what HAhnemann intended. But Miasmatic expression
did RESULT out of this situation in the long term, as I'll explain
below. I think its VERY IMPORTANT to separate this otherwise the
energies in homeoapthic medicine become suspect for their content - as
in occult forces that may be evil.

Now once on earth - man had to face the elements (weather, bacteria,
viruses, parasites, whatever else) and survive. His human spirit
(vital force) survived somehow, but was weakened by this onslaught.
The once that weakened the vital fore the most were LIVE elements
which had a focr of thier own becasuenthey were living things -
bacteria, Viruses, parasites. These produced typical miasmatic
expression based on the prganism invlved. We know that for a fact -
LEproscy, itch, etc were well documented from ancient times.
They resulted in heriditary traits.

I had said there were (for convenience) 2 parts to the soul
1) the human part of the soul is expressed in the heart and mind.
WHile the power of the vital force (human spirit) originates from it.
This is the SOUL that HAHNEMANN refers to.
The heart encompases the emotions and feelings.
The mind emcompasses thoughts and intellect.
The body is most peripheral.
The heart and the mind (external aspects of Soul) are susceptible to
external influences of the MIASM (bacteria, viruses, parasites) as
well as drugs. When these are very strong or persistant, changes occur
in the soul, IT results in a dynamic change at this deep level and the
vital force expresses this dynamic change as a miasmatic expression
with a genetic change called a trait.

Where do animals and plants fit in? They too have this vital force of
life - they may not require "communion with God" because there never
was an alienation. They too have a heart - and their mind is
intuitive, without "reason". They too can develop miasmatic changes
becasue their heart and mind can be dynamically affected by longterm
infection, etc.

It helps me when you and others express your thoughts, becasue it
crytalizes these concepts and my expereince more easily for me to put
in words here. This subject has itnerested me a gret deal -
specifically as it is an issue with Christian fudamentalists. The
concepts have to be very clear when I talk with them about homeopathy.
Thanks,
leela
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Robert & Shannon Nelson
wrote:

Hi Leela,
Okay--then was their sin to have *not* had sufficient intimacy before
the snake came on the scene, or was the sin their choice to *act upon*
their confusion?

I always strikes me how very, very "teenaged" their behavior was...
"I'm invincible." "Bad things happen to other people." "Yeah, but
those rules don't apply to *me*." "Mom says I can!" (oops, that
starts farther back than teen, doesn't it! And since they didn't have
a mother, they found a substitute scapegoat?) "She made me!" And
"Huh?" (Anyone hear *that* from their kids just after they've done
something incredibly stupid and incomprehensible? I think sometimes
the brain just takes a vacation.) And, God-like, parents (generally
speaking) respond by (a) continuing to love the little idiots anyway,
and (b) sometimes deciding Okay, enough is enough--deal with the
consequences!

So you are saying that Adam and Eve were "perfect", (and the snake
too?) but just made this incredibly stupid, incomprehensible and
ghastly costly mistake... why?

"Miasm" basically equates with "susceptibility" which goes beyond
what's intrinsic to inescapable to the species. (E.g. miasmatic
treatment won't remove susceptibility to asphyxiation, etc.) When we
have only these two, I guess there is no standard of comparison as far
as "the species", yet it sure looks to me like they were "susceptible"
to the snake's *appeal to curiosity; *appeal to ego; *appeal to
excitement!; *undermining of proper authority (only because he offered
what looked like a "better deal"; no one is tempted by something
*obviously* less good than what they have!)... etc.

So if this wasn't a matter of susceptibility beyond what is inescapable
(i.e. chronic dis-tunement, i.e. miasm), then it must have been
built-in, perhaps as a spur to true growth (but that's even *more*
speculative than the rest!).

If it was built-in, then perhaps the shame and dirtiness attached to
(the way some religions today teach the word) "sin", perhaps we should
instead go with the less-judgmental and I would say more useful
definition of "error". Which has largely the same underlying sense
(that approach didn't work out, now let's see what might work better!),
except that viewing it as "error" leaves us free to experience
ourselves as *good* and *beloved* people, while we keep seeking the
better answer--a far better learning environment, IMESHO!
leads to the feeling that Oh God, I'm such a creep, how could you even
stand to *look* at me, let alone help me out. (Er, I am not generally
the rebellious type, but that approach stuck in my craw from about age
6 onward.) I NEVER scold my kids by telling them they're stupid (tho i
confess that with one I've had some conversations like, "Don't call me
stupid!" "I never called you stupid. I said what you DID was stupid.
And it was, it was *really* stupid! You can do better than that, and
that's what we're talking about right now..." etc. (Argh, kids...)
put-downs, because that's not the place where the most effective
learning takes place. But, enough of that...
?? I don't know where that would come in (tho I realize it's been
said!), but I heartily agree that we need to keep the separation clear!
Speculation like "psora and Adam" is just "for fun", for mnemonic
(memory aid); but it's far removed from either Hahnemann's development
of the theory (mentioned NOWHERE in Organon or Chronic Diseases) or
from understanding or use of the theory. I do agree with you that the
distinction is important!

All that makes sense to me.
I'm actually not clear on just what the objection of Christian
fundamentalists *is*... Except that some are so mistrustful of
*anything* they don't understand...
Cheers,
Shannon

Hi Shannon, Very entertaining again....!
See below +++:

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Robert & Shannon Nelson
wrote:
Leela: So I'd say is what Adam and Eve did not have was this Itimacy and
Shannon: Okay--then was their sin to have *not* had sufficient
intimacy before
+++Leela: Precisely! Lots of emotional and spiritual growth required
by teenagers! ANd thankfully God created parents... by parents needs
to be God like as well (emotionally and spiritually grown up)... or
else it backfires - don't you think?
Leela: The result was - a human life on earth with it suffering, etc
and of
Shannon: So you are saying that Adam and Eve were "perfect", (and the
snake
+++Leela: They were perfect, becasue they were made in the IMAGE of
GOD himself. BUT were not allowed to eat of the "Tree of life" - For
whatever reason God though it was necessary... Maybe someday we'll
have the Revelation of this... you know - all this is still being
Revealed through the Spirit? (Pope John PAul II wrote wonderful
Documents of NEW revelation in the SPirit. I wish more people had
access to them.)

A good explanation then is :They made the costly mistake becasue they
did not KNOW God and so were easily decieved. If I truly know someone,
I'm not easily deceived by lies told about him/her. Check out what the
serpents statements actually were.

The Snake was the deceiver in disguise - as he operates today as well
- in other disguises.
Shannon:
"Miasm" basically equates with "susceptibility" which goes beyond

When we have only these two, I guess there is no standard of
comparison as far
+++Leela: YEs being susceptible to something (in the original sense of
the word - not in the homeopathic) is a human trait it would seem....

I don't think we need to read too much into what character
deficinecies Eve or Adam had. I think its simply a question of being
NAIVE as most of us are (neithre good or bad about it) and not
KNOWING God enough.
Shannon: So if this wasn't a matter of susceptibility beyond what is
inescapable
+++Leela: YEs I agree. I think this is beginning to be the NEW
REVELATION to the church today. Good and bad necessarily exists today,
good and evil necessarily exists today. So SIn is present. BUT the
focus shifts from condemnation to choice. The only way to overcome
this is for man to make a chioce to LOVE God and be in relationship
with Him WITH THE HELP OF the Spirit of GOD, though his SOUL being
OPEN to the power of God's SPirit.
Shannon: Which has largely the same underlying sense
++=Leela: i agree. But self condemnation/Condemnation has been the
DECEPTION that the evil one has made use of in the last few
generations through the Church itself!!!
We still have original sin though we do not need to call ourselves
"sinners" - it may sound better to call ourselves "human" with the
recurrent tendency to sin. )
The problem is that this tendency affects the spiritual part of the
soul and keeps the alienation persistant.
Shannon: I NEVER scold my kids by telling them they're stupid (tho i
+++Leela: We have those conversations at home too ... ))
Right what we have to avoid is Condemnation. Instead we need Loving
correction....
Leela: as I'll explain

Shannon: ?? I don't know where that would come in (tho I realize it's
been
Leela: Now once on earth - man had to face the elements (weather,
bacteria,
Shannon: All that makes sense to me.
+++Leela: There are sincere Christian objections, that can be easily
overcome by clear explanations, as I've tried to do above/earlier. A
lot of tinkering of the soul can be dangerous becasue ones soul is
then susceptible to EVIL forces (which exist) and often this is what
results in demonic possessions (which are REAL - I ahev seen them with
my own MEDICAL eyes!).

From the homeopathic standpoint, we still have to follow the
rules/principles/Organon and not use homeoapthic remedies
indiscriminately. From the soul standpoint, we have to realise what
we're doing when we are treating people with energies. There has to be
a very high level of responsiblity that we can make irreparable damage
- and this most of us are already aware of in some way.
A very high potency of a deeply acting remedy which is not similimum
(especially those close enoughicums) but the pateint happens to be
susceptible to can be detrimental. This is why we need to be very
careful using some of the modern case analysis appraoches looking for
"patterns and images" of teh vital force. the refinement and
understanding of teh case has to be on the dot ... that is not
something very easily possibe with us HUMANS...

Re: the funamentalists they are usually half-baked, mostly ignorant of
the love in scripture and are suspicious of everything. OBviously this
results from a lack of understanding and misplaced fear. they even use
Scripture to support their lack of understanding! Of course this is
just as easily overcome with appropriate Scripture as well.
Leela
like to
But
to try
Eve out
snake, and
recommendation
change

But this won't make any sense to those of us who do not believe in God
so does that mean we cannot believe in an original sin, not have a soul
and therefore not believe in miasmatic expression.

I would tend to circumnavigate this and say that the original sin was
born out of the dawn of civilisation and the possession of fire and the
power of separation that it brought - those that have and those that
have not, segregation, class, morality and discipline based around the
need to 'steal' that which one does not have etc etc - in other words a
situation whereby susceptibility (miasmatic expression) will be in
evidence in the reaction of those who have and in those who have not.

It is a bit unconvincing using a model that isn't universal to all.
Best wishes, Joy
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sigh, Joy - the only thing I can say is that HAhnemann obviously
belived in SOul and God.

hose who do not - I can understand the reluctance to accept the
rest... but maybe they prefer to walk with blinders on? IF they are Ok
with their beliefs or the lack of it, who is anyone to make judgements?

The lack of universality is not the fault of God or the soul or miasm.
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Joy Lucas wrote:
Hindus, and
whole
such

But why should there be a concept of sin at all, original or not?

Good and Evil are dependent on each other and are differentiated from each
other, they cannot exist alone, like light and darkness, yin and yang......

Why is it that so many people need the concept of an authoritative
Father/Mother/Creator?

I honestly do not understand that...........and do not see its relation with
miasms, constitutions or diseases at all..........
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".

Hi Joy,
I'm intrigued by your use of the word "sin" apart from a religious
model--I've always thought of it as quite a uniquely religious term.
How would you define it, from that non-religious standpoint? (And of
course it's *not*, or at least I don't think it is, a word that
Hahnemann ever used in his writings about homeopathy...)
Shannon

relation with

May be you need a couple of lilies growing out of your head to
fathom this... Or may be need to remove the cataract in your third
eye with Cineraria ... or at least get some new glasses Or just may
be just stimulate the pineal gland with Butterfly 200 water doses
applied directly on the scalp and continue till you feel a
tingling ....
If we do not have the concept of an authoritative Father/ Mother /
Creator how can we play these roles with our patients? of Priests/
Loving Mother Goddesses/ All-Knowing Guides? We need to create our
reality for ourselves - right?

Problem is - if we have a soul with a spark of divinity like fairy-
dust sticking to it and if we also suffer from chronic diseases how
can we reconcile the disease with that spark of divinity? Can
disease exist in such a blessed body... But like you say there is
this interplay of Yin and Yang going on here... because we have the
heavenly soul defined ( good, yang, dragon, heaven etc) we now need
to define the bad ( sin, yin ( hey look at how they rhyme)) and the
lot to explain why this divine spot deserted us in our time of
need..surely one cannot depend on it when one had forsaken it...

Any way -where we should be looking for multifactorial causation we
seem to go in for a single causation. Sin is probably like this...
we are still caught up in this cause-effect way of seeing things...

if you still cannot see the Sin of our ways, you are just faking
it...or having blinkers...
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD."
wrote:

from each
yang......

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Leelah wrote,

wholeness with God which allowed them (both him and Eve) to be
decieved or make a choice against God (not morally right).

The intimacy and wholeness were there, but God did want to be loved by
robots, so he created humans with a free will.
The first humans were good and perfect, so able to resist the temptation.
But they do fit into this whole process, it is very essential ! The
Hahnemannian miasm are only the material part of the bigger picture. And
this doesn't make the techniques and remedies Hahnemann offered us the
Organon on and CD less valuable.
But it explains his individualization part of the treatment of the miasm.
Without this insight the concequence would be to treat every miasm with the
nosode or PC remedy (Kill the bug or clear the specific dynamic damage of
the infection)
But like David said so clearly in your inteview, it can be every plant,
animal or mineral remedy.

Kind regards, Piet

Exactly. I wouldn't have wanted to have used the words 'original sin'
at all because of the connotations but used it because it was part of
the thread. But the collective 'we' do often want to know the origins
of certain states and the origins of dis-ease relates to what I wrote
and doesn't have anything to do with father, mother, creator, but the
human condition. If we believe in miasms then we have to have a notion
of origin of disease. Best wishes, Joy
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]