Minutus

Saroush wrote:

And what about Seghal's method where lots of statements from the patient are
translated to DESIRES LIGHT?

****Dear Saroush
I understand that when you put Sehgal's method in a sentence of the size above, and in this manner,
it is not anywhere near a reflection of his method. All it indicates to me, is that you maybe do not
have an understanding of his method, which in my opinion is innovative for Homoeopathy, and the one
from where Sankaran gained his inspiration. If you have not read his work, i suggest you do, and
then it may not seem so strange.

Forgive me if you already have this understanding ---- as, I would like to say that Sehgal has
offered the homoeopathic physician an opportunity to interpret the words of the patient in a
non-linear fashion, but rather in a broader conceptual manner.
This has amazing implications for casetaking --- however, it requires the casetaker to acknowledge,
that the words that a patient uses to describe his predicament, are imbued with much deeper and
broader meaning that the mere words collected together. He has put this together since 1970, so it
has been around for a long time, and there are practitioners who use his methods and are reporting
success in treatment.

Language is not without importance. All expressions have meaning that is not necessarily spelled out
in the exact words used, but when placed together and in a context, they can convey much more than
they seem to on paper.

Here is an example from Sankaran's Spirit of Hom. from EH.

" Now, I will give merely a sample of the way we can broaden our understanding of the rubrics and
how we can apply these rubrics in practice. In the first thirteen rubrics, I have used a style
similar to the one used by Dr. M.L. Sehgal of Delhi and I am indebted to him for showing this way.
I hope this sample will stimulate the reader to go on to the Repertory on his own and work at other
rubrics.
All meanings given here are from Chambers 20th Century Dictionary, 1960 edition.
Religious
Meaning : Scrupulous, devoted to, bound to a monastic life, strict.
Interpretation : One who follows the rules of any Order very strictly and scrupulously.
Expression : 1. Patient says: “Doctor, just tell me what I have to do. I am going to follow
homoeopathic treatment very strictly. I will do exactly as you say.”
2. Patient says: “In my profession I am very ethical. I believe that one must strictly follow the
rules.”
You can see how the rubric “Religious”, which one might narrow down to “practice of religion”, has
now become much broader.

-------------------------------------------------
Not all in this world are able to think in this way as easily as others, however, this method, if
acquired can save enormous amounts of time. Instead of needing family history, patient history, and
location sensation modality and concomitant information for individual characteristic symptoms, it
is possible by this broader method, to go back one step from symptomatology to the percpetion of the
patient of his condition.

It is possible that symptoms, as we use them, are the final point of expression and it is experience
of the the symptom that is more useful. This would be significant for what is painful for one is not
for another --- this means that a pain itself does not give alot of information, but how that pain
is experienced is quite informative of more than just the 'pain' but the way this person may respond
to other situations in their life, painful and other.

Sehgal used the symptoms only to track the healing progress of the patient.

Using concepts and themes and family, in my opinion is so innovative, it opens up the possibilities
for finding the similimum, using obviously different criteria than Hahnemann offered, but
possibilities that have been borne out by practitioners using this kind of approach, who have found
great success in treatment.

Is it wise to toss out something that we do not understand, or that we are not able to embrace due
to the way we think being different or even undeveloped in this way? Or, would it be a better
approach to take the journey into this form of thought and explore it? I choose the latter.

Mythology, and language are in my opinion inextricably connected, so, if we as 'observers' of our
patients wish to give them the best, maybe we should be aware of this connection and how it
manifests in our speech and cultural language patterns. Joseph Campbell is a good place to start
with this and of course Jung would have this covered. If we are prepared to accept 'dreams' as valid
symptomatology of the state of a person, then we must also learn the other language of the 'state'
of a person --- and pathological symptoms fall short in that department.

I see information about a person as being on levels and have been working this way before I studied
Homoeopathy, and Sankaran has also seen this and provided a pretty good template ---- and the
symptoms are usually the most prolific offerings, however, if one moves to another level other than
symptoms there will be emotions and feelings about the condition, and stepping to another level
again, there may be a sensation experienced. This level does not ignore pathology, but doesn't need
pathology to lead to remedies. It is part of a dynamic plane with symptoms at one end and these
other aspects being present at the same time. Prescribing acurately on a level other than symptoms,
is prescribing for the symptoms as well, just coming at it in a different way.

I don't feel that coming at a case from this direction is not homoeopathy ---- it is definitely not
the homoeopathy that Hahnemann did practice --- however, if one can arrive at the similimum this
way, then that is homoeopathy to me.

I agree with David Little when he mentions that if a onesided pathological organ state presents,
then it should be addressed with a remedy that is organ and pathology specific --- and then, the
'state' of the person can be addressed.

If a person is unable to convey any information other than the name and symptoms, then that is what
needs to be used to prescribe. If they are able to go deeper, then use it.

Sorry for this rambling on --- it took on a life of its own it seems as it went along

In Radar, there are concepts and themes provided which can be accessed by clicking on the yellow
lightbulb --- and there are also cross references given --- this is a good place to start with this
kind of thinking.

Also, Jeremy Sherr is currently developing software that will encompass a conceptual repertory, as
he has discovered that this approach to prescribing is invaluable. Herscu is also offering his
system that covers themes and segments and cycles which are provided by the patient on
exploration ----- and there are others -----
--------------------------------------
Saroush wrote:
We also have some funny goings on - could someone check this out - I
understand that the original proving symptom of ALUMINA there was 'fear of
bloody knife'. Yet it gets listed under fear of knife and fear of blood!

*** I found this in Allen's Encyc form EH

Alumina - Mind] - Upon seeing blood, or knives, horrible thoughts throng her mind;she feels, for
instance, as though she would commit suicide, although she has the greatest aversion to it, [_a1].

Seems that it was separate in the proving symptom here.
Best
Robyn
"The fact is we need any and every way of finding the right remedy; the simple simile, the simple
symptomatic similimum and the farthest reach of all - the pathologic similimum, and I maintain that
we are still well within the lines of Homoeopathy that is expansive, progressive, science fostered
and science fostering." (Dr. J. Compton Burnett)
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I think Soroush may be referring to a discussion a couple of years ago where
it was said that Seghal himself professed that some 80% (?) of his cases
only required Belladonna based on the metaphor "desires light", i.e. since
the patient consciously or unconsciously comes to treatment seeking
self-awareness into their situation. By most peoples' standards (I hope!!!)
this is taking things too far in a one-sided mentalist manner.

------------------------------

***Yes Chris, I remember that discussion.
It seems, after all I wrote, I forgot to mention the Desires for Light issue
the figure for Belladonna by the way is 30-35%.

I guess it is possible that Sehgal made some comments about choosing Belladonna for the reason you
mention, however, there are other rubrics that need to be covered by Bell for those who need more
than Sehgal obviously did. I think it is safe to say that very experienced prescribers, and there
are many accounts of this, many of them can choose a remedy based on what we would call scanty
information, and others would call 'keynotes'. Their mere experience allows them to see the remedy
easily, and I would assume that it is a form of mental processing of all they see, plus the
particular symptom that clinched it for them.

If Sehgal sees Desire for Light as a keynote of Belladonna, I am sure he would automatically look
for the other confirmatories.

I know he also describes Gels with this rubric ----- and maybe even Stram, based on the fear of the
dark aspect ---- if you look up the rep, those three are the highest ranking (well they are in
Synthesis) --- so my take is that he is really only using a limited number of remedies in his
work --- I could be incorrect saying that --- but I got that impression from his texts. The main
polychrests are well represented, but I have not heard mention of the other.

However, even so, I have a Materia Medica of the Mind that was published by the Sehgals, and there
are 900 odd rems represented --- so, after learning the basics for the main rems, I suppose one is
expected to be able to extrapolate that information and style of work to the rest of the Materia
Medica.

I have not studied his method in depth, just have read the books, and noted Sankaran's claim in the
preface to the Materia Medica on the influence on him of this man's work.

I would agree, that one single rubric such as Desire for the light is not realistic to prescribe
on --- but as i said, this is not what Sehgal is proposing. This is evident as I said in his texts.
He devotes alot of space to describing the Belladonna client.

I may be able to find his definition of Desires the Light if anyone is interested --

Enough from me I think!

Best

Robyn

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> Thanks for this example Robyn,
sehgal is a method I have never got my head around.

If you can explain it any more I'd be grateful, but you may feel you
have put enough effort into this in your last post!
Simon
snip

>
*****Simon, do you remember some kind person on one of these lists provided
members who asked with a summary document typed up in English, that is a
good example of Sehgal's ideas.
Did you get that document?
Robyn
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I seem to remember a rather heated discussion about this especially
Gelsemium.

But it is quite easy to see how Gelsemium would be in this rubric.

There is one type of Gels that is heavy, apathetic, fearful (especially
of ordeals and falling), droopy. There is a huge burden of
responsibility (+ can be grief with an inability to cry) and this makes
them droop, even their head may be bowed over and there eyes are very
heavy (ptosis being a clinical sx as well as a cataleptic state with
dilated pupils or eyes closed when conscious) and 'Desire for light' is
to look up and be relieved of that burden/heaviness, to be able to open
the eyes both physically and emotionally. There are a number of other
physical sensations that would allude to this need for light as well -
sai blood ceased to circulate, sensation of head being enlarged, sai a
load in the stomach, <<< humid, damp and foggy weather etc much of
which suggests this heaviness and over burdened state.

But Gels is part of the Nux vomica family so you will realise that
there is another side to Gelsemium and that is one that is much more
excitable and this might be at the forefront of the diseased state, the
causative factor even but one that is recognisable by sudden
excitement, restlessness, loss of muscular control, screaming with
fright, nervous shuddering, sleeplessness.

There is also the acute phase of Gelsemium which is usually Influenza
or migraine and characterised by great drowsiness and heaviness.

Being the winter Gelsemium (which has dropping flowers) I always think
it interesting that lower light levels will distress the plant, it
prefers the bright sunny dry winter days

best wishes, Joy
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.blogspot.com
edited
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Dear Robyn

It is not the first time that I hear people singing the praises of Sehgal's
methods. But Hn says we should remain unprejudiced observers. It is NOT
our job to interpret.

But let us discuss the example Sankaran gives - However 'Religious' can be
dangerous rubric to take because of its various format.
You have the fanatical character who would even kill in place of love

Or you may have the person who is seeking enLIGHTenment, [so again in this
case we take desires light and use Bell? ]
Or you have the person who fears salvation, the devil, or evil, is
superstitious or has severe guilt anxieties etc etc etc.

Is it not better to delve more in to what is the position behind the
statement.

Also we may have cultural issues creeping in. There is greater respect for
the elders in a country like India or Middle East than there is in most
Western countries.
Out this respect grows obedience which to a degree becomes second nature.
People will follow what their guru says without second thought. So we have
the person who blindly obeys.

Do we need to distinguish among these or do we just take the rubric
religious affectations?

Rgds
Soroush

Nope- i have had periods of not subscribing to the list so maybe it was
then

thanks
Simon
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I remember being introduced to the Sehgal method in college by someone
who had worked in India - we just thought it was hilarious - couldn't
get the gist of it at all

Simon
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Thanks, Robyn. This was a most interesting post. ) Rosemary

Dear Soroush-
What you say is true- We are not supposed to be interpreting stuff
because there is then no end to it...
Whose interpretation is it and how do we decide...
Our interpretation comes from our experience, background and
approach- which means even when taking the case we are orienting
ourself and have started assessing the patient in terms of our
glasses. This is exactly what I think Hahnemann did not want to
happen... people starting putting the cart before the horse
(sometimes there is no horse even- there is just a made-up
interpretational horse with a metaphorical cart)
Once I had a teen for hypnotherapy... his mother told us that he was
complaining of dreams of snakes... we asked him - not even under
hypnosis - what he thought would cure it- and he said paying homage
to the nearby temple deity... We asked him to do that and meanwhile
I was telling my junior that snakes are symbols of sexuality and
here is a boy in adolescent sexual period but in a religious family
where anything related to sex is taboo and his sexuality is
asserting thru dreams and tormenting because of moralities attached
to it etc. Very learned - uh? The boy became alright by doing what
he said. None of my interpretation was needed. Take it the way
nature tells us... we need not hunt for metaphors... the particular
constellation of symptoms that the system gives us is itself
metaphorical...

In Spirit of Homeopathy Rajan Sankaran misinterprets the same
symptom in different ways in different cases. it is the rubric "
Throws things" I think...

When we have properly conducted provings- also including such
interpretation at the symptom recording stage and they are part of
pathogenetic symptoms - that is when we can follow these...

Moreover following just this interpretation is not enough in many
cases... Sehgal says that the patients expression and the way the
words are uttered - all matter- and also used for interpretation-
whereas our materia medica rubrics are from prover 'diaries' most of
the time and the provers may not be suffering from whatever they
wrote in the diaries when they report... there is so much
information lost in this process and an interpretation based on the
diary-raised symptoms may not be correct since expressions were
already lost...

I have tried this method about 10 years back and was not very
impressed... there are very few cases that I was not able to handle
using the conventional case taking and repertorization - and even
these were probably faults of mine and not of the system or the
Hahnemannian approach given in the Organon- and remember none of
the masters had any need for "Desire for (metaphorical) light" to
interpret rubrics. Won't it be enough if we got at least their
success rate with the conventional methods?
Sehgal's thought process is interesting and may be effective in some
cases ( as most methods are) - I think using the materia medica we
have in this format is not good and would give rise to
more "misinterpretation". Let the interpretation be done at the
proving level first - not at the practice level...

Right now looks like what we need is Discovery of Hahnemann's
homeopathy - not Rediscovery of Homeopathy - as Sehgal claims it...
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Finrod" wrote:
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