Minutus

Hi Chris,

not quite sure whether I get your drift here or not, and whether your
final comment, the 'you're a bloody idiot for trying to disguise it'
refers to generic 'you' or me specifically.

Either way, here's my perspective.
I have already had the discussion on homoeosexuality (;-))years ago.
(1999) I am not interested in going over old ground again particularly.
Whether the discussion goes in that direction or not, doesn't
particularly interest me either. I am not unduly concerned with others
opinions, they are welcome to them whatever they may be, I know what
mine are. This applies both to homosexuality, religion, politics etc. I
find generally speaking that my opinion does not concur with the
majority. I do usually enjoy the banter though.

Homosexuality as I said was discussed before, and what I learned from
that discussion is that opinions differ widely across the world. What I
also learned is that it is pretty impossible to change peoples opinion
on the list. So as far as far as the list is concerned I have little to
restate on that topic. I am only replying as you as an individual make
it worthwhile. I doubt the list will really shy away from it actually,
I think the reactions were to my irreverent humour, (hopefully not
confused with prejudice).

re: enlightenment. it's not up to me to decide what's off topic, but I
know how sensitive this list can be in that regard, and don't have the
inclination to argue the point. No point in starting an interesting
topic to have it prematurely curtailed, was my thinking.

My compartmentalization was intended to be humorous, highlighting the
very point you make, how can these things be separated?
Simon
On Aug 09, 2005, at 07:19, Chris Gillen wrote:

No-one should decide but ourselves but this very often doesn't happen
due to the 'guidance' rules being applied from a very early age, i.e.
oppression then comes sublimation etc.

If one is allowed to offer what might be chosen as a 'higher purpose of
our existence', then I go back again to it being health - with health
of mind and body we have some freedom in making choices and our vision
of the world, from which we make those choices, should also have a
healthy perspective. Ultimately this is rendered by harmony and balance
- but this doesn't = bland and boring

I have a problem with the 'second class citizen' bit (I assume you are
being ironic) because if we think second class we are second class etc
but I absolutely agree with your words on how our own inner feelings
'sneak through' to our clients and we have a lot of work to do on that
score. The objective observer is paramount. Having sat in with a great
number of other practitioners it is mind boggling to see this NOT
happen but things can be misconstrued and get twisted via perspective.
I have even seen a client go to attack a homeopath because their
demeanour didn't suit and a question was taken the wrong way. It is
almost a situation of there being many possibilities for the beginner
and too few for the expert. Yes, we have a lot of work still to do.
Best wishes, Joy
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Apologies for boring anyone as Simon mentions a previous discussion on this issue. But I'm interested to hear views from list members. The job of homeopaths as stated in the Organon is to restore the individual to health. If a patient is gay, is that something to be cured? Is it health? Every time this issue came up in my studies it was guaranteed to cause uproar, so there wasn't much clear discussion. The conclusion reached by some was that it only needs to be cured if the gay person deeply wants to be straight and is miserable the way he/she is. I haven't yet treated such cases, but I may be seeing a patient soon who is gay and wants to be straight, so I'd appreciate the input..
Can anyone enlighten me? (trying to stay within the subject line of the string...)
Vera

Joy Lucas wrote:
No-one should decide but ourselves but this very often doesn't happen
due to the 'guidance' rules being applied from a very early age, i.e.
oppression then comes sublimation etc.

If one is allowed to offer what might be chosen as a 'higher purpose of
our existence', then I go back again to it being health - with health
of mind and body we have some freedom in making choices and our vision
of the world, from which we make those choices, should also have a
healthy perspective. Ultimately this is rendered by harmony and balance
- but this doesn't = bland and boring

I have a problem with the 'second class citizen' bit (I assume you are
being ironic) because if we think second class we are second class etc
but I absolutely agree with your words on how our own inner feelings
'sneak through' to our clients and we have a lot of work to do on that
score. The objective observer is paramount. Having sat in with a great
number of other practitioners it is mind boggling to see this NOT
happen but things can be misconstrued and get twisted via perspective.
I have even seen a client go to attack a homeopath because their
demeanour didn't suit and a question was taken the wrong way. It is
almost a situation of there being many possibilities for the beginner
and too few for the expert. Yes, we have a lot of work still to do.
Best wishes, Joy
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello VR,

this issue. But I'm interested to hear views from list members. The job of
homeopaths as stated in the Organon is to restore the individual to health.
If a patient is gay, is that something to be cured? Is it health? Every
time this issue came up in my studies it was guaranteed to cause uproar, so
there wasn't much clear discussion. The conclusion reached by some was that
it only needs to be cured if the gay person deeply wants to be straight and
is miserable the way he/she is. I haven't yet treated such cases, but I may
be seeing a patient soon who is gay and wants to be straight, so I'd
appreciate the input..
If you l;ok at the whole case, you could determine if the gay part is
causing disorder. If not, let's say the person has a perfectly stable,
happy relationship, then it's not part of any disturbance. The nice theing
about homepathy is we don't (shouldn't) make judgements about was is right
or wrong. We should only listen to what the patient tells us is wrong in
their life and use that. Then, the simillimumbalances things out, so that
if the sexuality is part of "relationship disorder" then changes will take
place.

Regards,
Paul

more-
It had been suggested that homeosexuality must always be considered a
symptom when looking for a remedy in a case

Simon King wrote:

First determine what is the priority. Is Homosexuality a priority in
any given case? The only attitude that counts is the patient's. Is it
an issue for them or not? If it isn't then it shouldnt be an issue for
the practitioner..Just because the patient is homosexual doesnt
automatically mean that must be emphasised in the
repertorisation.Remember the prevailing attitudes to homosexuality when
the rubric was created. Examine your own attitudes to homosexuality.
(If it's an issue for the practitioner but not the patient then the
practitioner cannot agree with the patient what constitutes health and
therefore will be unlikely to be effective in helping them)
Also remeber that someone can get 'locked' into being either homo or
hetero-sexual by peer pressure..e.g. they may have been homosexual for
some time but find they also have heterosexual feelings but this is not
accepted by their peers, that the converse happens is also obvious.
There are many who are not specifically at one end of the sexual
spectrum, but that doesnt mean they're in the middle either.
It's a sliding scale, and can change at different times of life .What
might seem true regarding someones sexuality at one time may not be
true at another.
Beware of being impressed or surprised that someone changes sexual
orientation after a remedy. This is only important if it is important
to the patient, and only as important as it is to the patient.
Many of the issues surrounding sexuality are to do with permission.
Without the freedom to explore freely how can someone make choices?
Without freedom to make choices how can they be healthy?
You quote a case where someone changes from homo to hetero-sexuality
after a remedy. Examine what your response would be if after the next
remedy they changed back again.
To my mind you could put every single remedy in the rubrics pertaining
to homosexuality, because any of them may be useful to any patient who
also happens to be homosexual.
It is only the ISSUES , if they exist, that can be repertorised
meaningfully.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vera you asked the following question?
"I may be seeing a

The emotional disturbance the patient has WITH HIMSELF; this is all the
Rubrics for Dislike of self ETC. It really has to do with HIS opinion of his
sexuality and he is obviously disliking of himself OR it can be an issue of
not wanting to upset family OR just being "outside of the box" upsets a lot
of constitutions particularly all the Calcs; etc. It is not that unusual to
not want to be what is conventionally seen as normal BUT the issue you need
to repertorise is his feeling and symptom of his own dislike / repulsion or
what it is = that you need to find.

-----

I know this is a controversial topic...

From everything I've read, sexual preference is hard-wired into the individual -- true not only across all human cultures throughout history, but also in a wide variety of non-human animal species. For many, it's as complex and immovable as physical appearance. If a person is tall, short, dark, light, thin, heavy, gay or straight, and is unhappy with his/her physical reality, what actually needs to be cured? We can only say "It depends," unless we ask anew for each individual.
An idea of the complexity of this question can be surmised from working with some of the small number of individuals who appear to have a physiologically based discrepancy between their gender identity and their physical gender -- not something that appears curable from the psychological perspective. This is an incredibly complex topic to which there are no simple or generalized answers. We must discover individually for each person what needs curing, and proceed accordingly.

Rosemary

Yes! I used to have a buddy who swung from one to the other with some
regularity, quite without the help of any remedy...
And even in that case, another possibility (at least as likely, IMO) is
that the person might simpy become more accepting of who they *are*,
whether straight, gay, bi- or non-!
Do find out *why* he would rather be straight. Is it a matter of
tensions with friends or family, or shame, or difficulty with finding a
partner, or ?
Shannon

Hi Will,
I hear you!
In my 20s, my then-somewhat-homophobic boyfriend somehow found himself
buddies with a really wonderful little group -- mostly gay men, with a
few "strays" such as ourselves. For me (as well as for him) it was
eye-opening. Before that I don't think either of us had ever known
anyone who was gay, at least not openly, or at least not openly to
*us*. They were a really wonderful group--lively, funny, friendly,
smart, well-read, thoughtful--just really special people. My boyfriend
did *not* become gay, and so far as I saw, never had any temptation
toward it, either. But during his occasional trips with them thru
(ack) gay bars, he did get a whole new appreciation about why *I* used
to get so annoyed at having passing men on the streets, etc., "mentally
undressing" me. )) Actually, I think it's probably an experience
that *every* straight male ought to go through for a while, LOL! (I
don't mean being gay [unless they want to, of course], but I mean being
on the receiving end of that particular type of "male energy" that
(straight) males are usually spared!

My point... Most people in (I think it's safe to say) most areas don't
have any basis for understanding the issues. In certain ways sexual
orientation is trivial; but in other ways it *is* a big and fundamental
difference (as I'm sure you realized by about age 4!). People have
always had trouble with others who are "different"; "fear of the
unknown" is a really basic survival strategy.

Knowing what most gay people have had to go through, I totally
appreciate your anger! But I offer from "our side", that maybe you can
spare us some compassion and patience; most folks are teachable, given
the chance! But sometimes those things can take time, and even luck.
Be patient, and you *are* part of the solution!
Best wishes,
Shannon

The title of this post makes my hair stand on end. Homeopathy is a
system of health creation. Where does enlightenment have anything to
do with classical or any othe type of homeopathy? Unless you have a
very superficial view of what enlightenment, in the spiritual sense,
means.

Enlightenment, as meant by those who have achieved it, certainly will
never be achieved by taking pills.

I always thought we called homeopathy a marriage between art and
science. These days it seems more accurately described as those 2 in a
threesome with religion.

PS Last night we had a tv programme about someone who went to memphis
to be cured of his homosexuality which was rather topical. It didnt
work..
)