Minutus

Dear members of this list!
Theories there are many, but I would like to share my own expirience with you:
In my psychotherapy I remembered the feeling of being in the uterus in the early pregnancy (my arms still being stumps) .It was not "watching my house being built", not at all.
It was being COMPLETELY IN THERE surrounded by my mother´s emotions without any possibility to escape, our common feeling of sickness, her digust, her vomiting, as if she rather wanted to spit me out. Quite frightening to me. Nowadays general feeling of mine towards the world and myself is very similar to what I felt then.
I also know of a woman who (during psychotherapy) remembered her mother trying an abortion on her own with knitting needles. When she asked her mother afterwards, she admitted it.
Consciousness is there from the beginning. It may be forgotten, but it is stored in your body and may be awakened again.
Not to be completely off topic: It may be of great importance to ask about pregnancy in anamnesis.
Because the roots of some problems may be there, too. Or let´s say, a certain pattern may have had its first expression then.
To my experience it is a prejudice to think, that life in the uterus is EXCLUSIVELY warm, protected and safe. It may be completely different.

Now on maternal feelings:
I think we don´t do any woman a favour by just glamourizing pregnancy, because then she may feel the pressure to be happy, and will neglect and repress any feelings of fear, disgust, insecurity, loss of control over her own body, and so on.
We should give a patient room to express these feelings, too. If we are prejudiced and neglect that pregnancy may be something very hard to a person, we keep her mouth shut.
Regards
Irene
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"surrounded by my mother´s emotions without any possibility to escape, our
common feeling of sickness, her digust, her vomiting, as if she rather
wanted to spit me out. Quite frightening to me. "

Buddhism teaches suffering begins in the womb...so the fetus is clearly
alive. It's hardly coincidence that Islam, Buddhism and the Greeks regarded
abortion as an abomination. It's also no surprise that the feminists have
kept quiet about one society where infanticide was widely practised - namely
Rome. While they are keen to bring up the blissful matriarchal example of
primitive societies they ignore the fact that abortion was unheard of in
them. An incongruous position to say the least!

Andrew

Dear members of this list!
I would like to share my own experience concerning this question with you:
In my psychotherapy I remembered the feeling of being in the uterus in the early pregnancy (my arms still being stumps) .It was not "watching my house being built", not at all.
It was being COMPLETELY IN THERE surrounded by my mother´s emotions without any possibility to escape, our common feeling of sickness, her digust, her vomiting, as if she rather wanted to spit me out. Quite frightening to me. Nowadays general feeling of mine towards the world and myself is very similar to what I felt then.
I also know of a woman who (during psychotherapy) remembered her mother trying an abortion on her own with knitting needles. When she asked her mother afterwards, she admitted it.
Consciousness is there from the beginning. It may be forgotten, but it is stored in your body and may be awakened again.
Not to be completely off topic: It may be of great importance to ask about pregnancy in anamnesis.
Because the roots of some problems may be there, too. Or let´s say, a certain pattern may have had its first expression then.
To my experience it is a prejudice to think, that life in the uterus is EXCLUSIVELY warm, protected and safe. It may be completely different.

Now on maternal feelings:
I think we don´t do any woman a favour by just glamourizing pregnancy, because then she may feel the pressure to be happy, and will neglect and repress any feelings of fear, disgust, insecurity, loss of control over her own body, and so on.
We should give a patient room to express these feelings, too. If we are prejudiced and neglect that pregnancy may be something very hard to a person, we keep her mouth shut.
Regards
Irene
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh Andrew,

You are opening up a whole other realm. So-called primitive societies are an entirely different ball of wax, as they say. First, so many of them were matriarchal, matrilineal, matrilocal, or some combination of female centered organization. Second, as I noted in a much earlier post, most early societies needed every child for the survival of the community--it was an economic need, as much as it was cultural need. Third, the culture was organized to accomodate child rearing in a collective process so that individual women were not isolated and overloaded with responsibility while working (and work they did!). And last, the cultures were simplier, closer, and cultural values and goals were much more limited. To open this avenue of exploration may be interesting, but has little relation to the societal conditions (including goals, aspirations and pressures) that we are discussing or treating in our current practices.

Now, on another note, you nor I have a clue about abortions in earlier societies. As far as I recall, early European society knew of herbs that were abortants. Do I think for a second that women the world over did not have means to deal with their conditions? Not at all. And since women were herbalists in so many parts of the world, I do believe that there was much information they kept to themselves.

tanya

Ancient Rome, just like ancient Greece, was far from matriarchal. Infanticide was (and continues to be) practiced widely in patriarchal societies; no evidence of infanticide has been found to exist in the matriarchal societies.

In matriarchies, abortion was not necessary, as women--the work they did, the creativity they embodied, and the children they created and reared--were all highly valued. The society was structured around valuing women and children, great support was provided and ensured for the birth, survival, and growth of every child.
This is why feminists are so keen to educate people to the existence of these matriarchal societies, which did not operate on hierarchy or on male dominance; nor did they operate with the patriarchal focus of "owning" people and land.

If you want to learn more about these societies, you can look at Maria Gimbutas' extensive work in archeology on these Goddess centred matriarchies. Her work is comprehensive, but its a great place to start.

Nancy

Nancy said this..

Ancient Rome, just like ancient Greece, was far from matriarchal.
Infanticide was (and continues to be) practiced widely in patriarchal
societies; no evidence of infanticide has been found to exist in the
matriarchal societies.

and this...

This is why feminists are so keen to educate people to the existence of
these matriarchal societies.
+++++

i gather you have made, albeit unintentionally, my point. Abortion arises as
a result of valuing things over people, and violence over co-operation. Its
hardly surprising that the feminists contradict themselves whenever they
open their mouths on this issue. They support abortion, the most violent
"patriarchal" activity imaginable. If it wasn't tragic it would be
laughable.

Andrew

The sad thing is that you believe I've made your point...

Abortion--when it is SOLELY the woman's choice to bear or not bear a child, for her own reasons--absolutely values life over things.

It values HER life over the idea that she, and the life that she could bear, are chattel which belong to some man.
It values each individual life brought into the world, in that every child born is a child who is wanted.

Perhaps if I altered your words a little bit:

eg: "Abortion (as we know it to take place in our own society) arises as a result of (the Patriarchal mindset) valuing things over people, and violence over cooperation".

I'd be in some form of agreement with you.

Feminists do not support abortion because men want it (to eradicate inconvenient responsibilities), but because women must have the right to determine for themselves their own reproductive lives. That is quite a different thing from what patriarchy aims to achieve.

Those who are against a woman's right to choose (mostly men) are interested in denying that right simply because they wish to deny a woman this right to have complete say over how she and her body will be used.

The desire to "own" and control another is the most profoundly violent act in patriarchy, as well as its basis of existence. In my opinion, this far outweighs any violence in nature, as well as any violence which results from a woman deciding not to bear a child.

Nancy

Pls explain the matriarchal mindset that allows approves abortion
(What I have been asking all along???)

Soroush

> It values HER life over the idea that she, and the life that she could
bear, are chattel which belong to some man.

where is the right of the baby in this? it is acceptable for women to be
free from domination be men, but why then can she have absolute tyranny over
the developing baby?

Andrew

Andrew,

I gather that when you have a womb and the ability/sole responsibility to
rear, nurture, protect, clothe, feed, etc that life (thereby completely
altering your own permanently)...and to do all this potentially without any
remuneration or support of any kind from the community around you....

Only then you will be able to fully comprehend WHY the existing woman's life
has to take precedence over the possible life she may or may not create.

Until then, or better still--until you do your part and push for change in
the way men organize their institutions and their behaviour to value women
at all--you will never understand this truth.

Nancy