Page 1 of 1

I goofed - Liz

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:53 am
by doctorleelah2h
HI Liz, Its interesting that you used 200C potencies!
I don't think I have ventured with 200C in acutes, but yes I have
used 200C with constitutionals during pregnancy.
there are a few cases that don't seem to be so sensitive adn require
a higher potency.

The time when during college days we used to repeat 30C tds (!)
during ( normal)labour of after (normal) delivery (specifics like LAc
Can, Arnica calendula, etc). BUt I don't recall any instance that I
have repeated a remedy frequently in my private practive.

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Liz Hennel wrote:
in some ways it is slightly suppressed in order not to reject the
fetus as being a "foreign" body, and yet it is also more sensitive.
Pregnancy is a very dynamic state, as Dr Leela says, and like her I
expect to monitor the situation much more closely. I also prefer to
use higher potencies during an acute like this - 200c most often. I
have had to deal with similar cases during pregnancy - and I can
remember one that really had me sweating - worrying - about the rapid
and strong response - and similalry agonising over what I had done.
Fortunately at the time I had a really good teacher with a lot of
experience of homeopathy in pregnancy - she encouraged and supported
me - and spurred me on to have the courage of my homeopathic
convictions. I thank her regularly for being an inspiration.
maybe one or two deliveries with homeopathy each year (which is more
than most of my colleagues locally), and work with another a dozen
women during their pregnancies. Some are more challenging than
others, but they are always a real treat. One thing that I find
invaluable is Sandra Perko's book on pregnancy and birth. It is
modern and accurate - a veritable mine of useful information.
pregnancy - this is a great time to be a homeopath!
this example. My question at this point regards following through on
that idea. What can we all learn from this, in terms of things to
watch out for.
your observations on remedies in pregnant women?
wasn't clear from the case as it was presented that the infection
might rebound in that way from the remedy. What signs might there
have been to proceed cautiously? What would be a prudent response
when such signs are present?
to learn from it with you!
but this was a strng disease - and reactred as such. Thsi is not
unusual in oregnancy, especailly towards full term - I have certainly
seen this happen before - and it happened with one of my patients. It
is a real heart-sinking feeling for you as the homeopath, but this is
not a reason to think that you goofed.
to remedies, as we do to disease. This is the real explanation.
acted in good faith, according to the symptom picture at the time.
None of us is perfect -and it is a dangerous delusion to think that
any of us are. Being imperfect keeps us on our toes - striving to
improve.
and remember that our best teachers are our patients - and especially
those who don't turn out as we expect.
those
some
with her
of
having
premature
was
worse for
urination --
the back,
Additional
urination, better
she
advanced
pains are
pain with
considerable
overseas.
cantharis 30 to
bud (so to
prescribing. She
without
the remedy I
Monday that she
shakes,
infection, is on
is that
about why the
dramatically
badly, and
handled it.
do if she
concerned about the
now?
a homeopath
Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no
representations regarding the individual suitability of the
information contained in any document read or advice or
recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email
postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use
remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its
individual members be liable for any direct, consequential,
incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and
howsoever caused.
change your setting at http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/minutus to
receive a single daily digest.
Service.
Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no
representations regarding the individual suitability of the
information contained in any document read or advice or
recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email
postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use
remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its
individual members be liable for any direct, consequential,
incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and
howsoever caused.
change your setting at http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/minutus to
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----------
Service.
Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no
representations regarding the individual suitability of the
information contained in any document read or advice or
recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email
postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use
remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its
individual members be liable for any direct, consequential,
incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and
howsoever caused.
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Re: I goofed - Liz

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:12 am
by Liz Hennel
I use 200c during labour - and the reason I use 200 for late acutes in pregnancy is because the body is preparing enrgetically for the most amazing effort of labour, and I feel the acute that arises at this time is likely to be better treated by a higher potency. This was not a true acute - it had been lurking in the background for some time, and had not been adequately addressed by the allopathic treatment, so I would have really gone in much more vigourously - especially as the woman was experiencing contractions, and then threw a really strong fever.
Anyway, it all turned out OK in the end.
Liz

doctorleelah2h wrote:
HI Liz, Its interesting that you used 200C potencies!
I don't think I have ventured with 200C in acutes, but yes I have
used 200C with constitutionals during pregnancy.
there are a few cases that don't seem to be so sensitive adn require
a higher potency.

The time when during college days we used to repeat 30C tds (!)
during ( normal)labour of after (normal) delivery (specifics like LAc
Can, Arnica calendula, etc). BUt I don't recall any instance that I
have repeated a remedy frequently in my private practive.

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Liz Hennel wrote:
in some ways it is slightly suppressed in order not to reject the
fetus as being a "foreign" body, and yet it is also more sensitive.
Pregnancy is a very dynamic state, as Dr Leela says, and like her I
expect to monitor the situation much more closely. I also prefer to
use higher potencies during an acute like this - 200c most often. I
have had to deal with similar cases during pregnancy - and I can
remember one that really had me sweating - worrying - about the rapid
and strong response - and similalry agonising over what I had done.
Fortunately at the time I had a really good teacher with a lot of
experience of homeopathy in pregnancy - she encouraged and supported
me - and spurred me on to have the courage of my homeopathic
convictions. I thank her regularly for being an inspiration.
maybe one or two deliveries with homeopathy each year (which is more
than most of my colleagues locally), and work with another a dozen
women during their pregnancies. Some are more challenging than
others, but they are always a real treat. One thing that I find
invaluable is Sandra Perko's book on pregnancy and birth. It is
modern and accurate - a veritable mine of useful information.
pregnancy - this is a great time to be a homeopath!
this example. My question at this point regards following through on
that idea. What can we all learn from this, in terms of things to
watch out for.
your observations on remedies in pregnant women?
wasn't clear from the case as it was presented that the infection
might rebound in that way from the remedy. What signs might there
have been to proceed cautiously? What would be a prudent response
when such signs are present?
to learn from it with you!
but this was a strng disease - and reactred as such. Thsi is not
unusual in oregnancy, especailly towards full term - I have certainly
seen this happen before - and it happened with one of my patients. It
is a real heart-sinking feeling for you as the homeopath, but this is
not a reason to think that you goofed.
to remedies, as we do to disease. This is the real explanation.
acted in good faith, according to the symptom picture at the time.
None of us is perfect -and it is a dangerous delusion to think that
any of us are. Being imperfect keeps us on our toes - striving to
improve.
and remember that our best teachers are our patients - and especially
those who don't turn out as we expect.
those
some
with her
of
having
premature
was
worse for
urination --
the back,
Additional
urination, better
she
advanced
pains are
pain with
considerable
overseas.
cantharis 30 to
bud (so to
prescribing. She
without
the remedy I
Monday that she
shakes,
infection, is on
is that
about why the
dramatically
badly, and
handled it.
do if she
concerned about the
now?
a homeopath
Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no
representations regarding the individual suitability of the
information contained in any document read or advice or
recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email
postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use
remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its
individual members be liable for any direct, consequential,
incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and
howsoever caused.
change your setting at http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/minutus to
receive a single daily digest.
Service.
Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no
representations regarding the individual suitability of the
information contained in any document read or advice or
recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email
postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use
remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its
individual members be liable for any direct, consequential,
incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and
howsoever caused.
change your setting at http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/minutus to
receive a single daily digest.
----------
Service.
Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no
representations regarding the individual suitability of the
information contained in any document read or advice or
recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email
postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use
remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its
individual members be liable for any direct, consequential,
incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and
howsoever caused.
change your setting at http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/minutus to
receive a single daily digest.
Service.
out!
ATTENTION PLEASE:

The Minutus Group is established purely for the promotion of Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no representations regarding the individual suitability of the information contained in any document read or advice or recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its individual members be liable for any direct, consequential, incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and howsoever caused.

****
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Re: I goofed - Liz

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:24 am
by doctorleelah2h
ITs good to understand your experience, thanks.
During my own labour, I recall being very sensitive to even 30C's.
ONe dose of KAli Phos actually calmed me down so much, the labour
pains decided to take a rest!
OF course I remember one patient who had some fungal itching all over
th body. I gave her Apis first - one dose and the itching was gone,
and it returnd the next day with a vengence, worse than before. So I
retook her characteristics and give her Phos instead. the response to
the first dose of 30C was slow, but a definite ammelioration. Since I
ralsied that she had a moderate senstiivity, she had Phos 30C plussed
almost daily for nearly a week till her symptoms subsided. She is
consitutionally a Natrum Phos. But post delivery she has responded to
Nat Mur!

So what you're saying is that you would have dosed Beth's pattient
with a remedy more frequently or higher potency - given that you had
the right remedy? (Did you see the response to Cantharis as curative?)
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Liz Hennel wrote:
in pregnancy is because the body is preparing enrgetically for the
most amazing effort of labour, and I feel the acute that arises at
this time is likely to be better treated by a higher potency. This
was not a true acute - it had been lurking in the background for some
time, and had not been adequately addressed by the allopathic
treatment, so I would have really gone in much more vigourously -
especially as the woman was experiencing contractions, and then threw
a really strong fever.
require
LAc
state -
I
rapid
supported
more
from
on
us
should -
certainly
It
is
you -
especially
get
course
She
pelvis,
the
night
guess
can
done
being
its
its
--
of
its
Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no
representations regarding the individual suitability of the
information contained in any document read or advice or
recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email
postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use
remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its
individual members be liable for any direct, consequential,
incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and
howsoever caused.
change your setting at http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/minutus to
receive a single daily digest.
Service.

Re: I goofed - Liz

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:35 pm
by Liz Hennel
I think given the dramatic response that it took the lid off something that had been lurking there all along - so I might have done either - on balance I think I would have gone higher - a potency to out-match the strength of the natural disease, which was apparently very virulent.
Clearly every one is going to be different - I do adapt to the needs of my patient, but I am not bound (and I had teacher who demonstrated this to me) by the "conventions" of what we have come to regard as potency "law". There are acutes which are SO strong - and SO potentially damaging in their actions that you should seriously consider using higher potencies - and i think this was one such occasion.
Liz
doctorleelah2h wrote:
ITs good to understand your experience, thanks.
During my own labour, I recall being very sensitive to even 30C's.
ONe dose of KAli Phos actually calmed me down so much, the labour
pains decided to take a rest!
OF course I remember one patient who had some fungal itching all over
th body. I gave her Apis first - one dose and the itching was gone,
and it returnd the next day with a vengence, worse than before. So I
retook her characteristics and give her Phos instead. the response to
the first dose of 30C was slow, but a definite ammelioration. Since I
ralsied that she had a moderate senstiivity, she had Phos 30C plussed
almost daily for nearly a week till her symptoms subsided. She is
consitutionally a Natrum Phos. But post delivery she has responded to
Nat Mur!

So what you're saying is that you would have dosed Beth's pattient
with a remedy more frequently or higher potency - given that you had
the right remedy? (Did you see the response to Cantharis as curative?)
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Liz Hennel wrote:
in pregnancy is because the body is preparing enrgetically for the
most amazing effort of labour, and I feel the acute that arises at
this time is likely to be better treated by a higher potency. This
was not a true acute - it had been lurking in the background for some
time, and had not been adequately addressed by the allopathic
treatment, so I would have really gone in much more vigourously -
especially as the woman was experiencing contractions, and then threw
a really strong fever.
require
LAc
state -
I
rapid
supported
more
from
on
us
should -
certainly
It
is
you -
especially
get
course
She
pelvis,
the
night
guess
can
done
being
its
its
--
of
its
Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no
representations regarding the individual suitability of the
information contained in any document read or advice or
recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email
postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use
remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its
individual members be liable for any direct, consequential,
incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and
howsoever caused.
change your setting at http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/minutus to
receive a single daily digest.
Service.
ATTENTION PLEASE:

The Minutus Group is established purely for the promotion of Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no representations regarding the individual suitability of the information contained in any document read or advice or recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its individual members be liable for any direct, consequential, incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and howsoever caused.

****
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: I goofed - Liz

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:08 am
by doctorleelah2h
HI Liz,
SOrry, I was away for a few days.
YEs i agree with your perspective.

BUT there is still the facts: What had the single dose of 30C done -
was it a healing response or was it just taking the lid of?

HOW does one make that assessment? BEcasue if this is inaccurate we'd
be casuing more damage by repeating an inaccurate remedy that has not
healed byt jus taken the lid off.

Given the intensity of the response, I'd say this was a very
sensitive patient. Given that, I'd say that if I was accurate with my
remedy, the dose of 30C shuold ahve been enough to cure had it been
accurate.

Once can still re-analyse the case and give the correct remedy,
within 3-4 hours of this response taking in teh new symptoms again.
But really after being bitten once with an partial remedy and intense
response, I'd need to get my confidence up for teh next rpescription
by at least seeing a positive healing reposnse in teh next couple of
hours of teh second prescription.
Once I'd seen that (premature contractions reduced, general toxicity
of the fever reduced, fever moderate, general feeling of wellbeing -
appetite improved, rean and urinary pains reducing, Lab tests showing
the infection reducing), yes I'd think about a 1M - becasue I"m on a
good remedy. BUT then if my 30C was doing a good job, why would I
change the potency? I'd repeat the 30C plussed evey 3-4 hours and
move up (200 or 1M) if it stopped helping.

Really I'd rather not have any more shocks to handle for the next 24
hours ... I need to sleep as well!

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Liz Hennel wrote:
something that had been lurking there all along - so I might have
done either - on balance I think I would have gone higher - a potency
to out-match the strength of the natural disease, which was
apparently very virulent.
needs of my patient, but I am not bound (and I had teacher who
demonstrated this to me) by the "conventions" of what we have come
to regard as potency "law". There are acutes which are SO strong -
and SO potentially damaging in their actions that you should
seriously consider using higher potencies - and i think this was one
such occasion.
over
I
to
I
plussed
to
had
curative?)
acutes
some
threw
I
wrote:
sensitive.
I
to
often.
done.
dozen
through
to
little
it
there
response
patients.
this
diffrently
You
time.
that
pregnant
serious
in
which
since
from
was
case
use
simply
to
of
around
use
simply
to
--
Terms
use
to
it
its
Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no
representations regarding the individual suitability of the
information contained in any document read or advice or
recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email
postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use
remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its
individual members be liable for any direct, consequential,
incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and
howsoever caused.
change your setting at http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/minutus to
receive a single daily digest.
Service.

Re: I goofed - Liz

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:59 am
by Liz Hennel
I too like to sleep at night! And I am sure the patient would want to as well -especially as the arrival of a new baby is so imminent. I think we may not resolve this completely, which is OK - the debate is very useful.
I would have been very careful to evaluate the response to that first dose - it is hard sometimes not to give a knee-jerk reaction to such a crisis - and it clearly was a crisis - the patient ended up in the hospital. I suspect there was another remedy to address the original picture - and this "new" critical picture - and the Cantharis was helpful in restoring that. However, maybe the disease was so strong, that even though the Cantharis was the correct remedy, the potency needed to be changed to address that.
But...we can only know that by asking the patient - who is the person who is living with all this. Sometimes it is not entirely appropriate to re-take the case - when someone is in the throes of a fever with a lot of pain they don't want to be hassled by a lot of questions - just fix it! Other observations come into play at that time - which add to the picture to prescribe on.
We all have slightly different styles of working as Homeopaths, and our experiences add to that. A classical approach is also not the only way to "do" homeopathy, although I am a classical homeopath myself. I guess that "all roads lead to Rome".

doctorleelah2h wrote:
HI Liz,
SOrry, I was away for a few days.
YEs i agree with your perspective.

BUT there is still the facts: What had the single dose of 30C done -
was it a healing response or was it just taking the lid of?

HOW does one make that assessment? BEcasue if this is inaccurate we'd
be casuing more damage by repeating an inaccurate remedy that has not
healed byt jus taken the lid off.

Given the intensity of the response, I'd say this was a very
sensitive patient. Given that, I'd say that if I was accurate with my
remedy, the dose of 30C shuold ahve been enough to cure had it been
accurate.

Once can still re-analyse the case and give the correct remedy,
within 3-4 hours of this response taking in teh new symptoms again.
But really after being bitten once with an partial remedy and intense
response, I'd need to get my confidence up for teh next rpescription
by at least seeing a positive healing reposnse in teh next couple of
hours of teh second prescription.
Once I'd seen that (premature contractions reduced, general toxicity
of the fever reduced, fever moderate, general feeling of wellbeing -
appetite improved, rean and urinary pains reducing, Lab tests showing
the infection reducing), yes I'd think about a 1M - becasue I"m on a
good remedy. BUT then if my 30C was doing a good job, why would I
change the potency? I'd repeat the 30C plussed evey 3-4 hours and
move up (200 or 1M) if it stopped helping.

Really I'd rather not have any more shocks to handle for the next 24
hours ... I need to sleep as well!

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Liz Hennel wrote:
something that had been lurking there all along - so I might have
done either - on balance I think I would have gone higher - a potency
to out-match the strength of the natural disease, which was
apparently very virulent.
needs of my patient, but I am not bound (and I had teacher who
demonstrated this to me) by the "conventions" of what we have come
to regard as potency "law". There are acutes which are SO strong -
and SO potentially damaging in their actions that you should
seriously consider using higher potencies - and i think this was one
such occasion.
over
I
to
I
plussed
to
had
curative?)
acutes
some
threw
I
wrote:
sensitive.
I
to
often.
done.
dozen
through
to
little
it
there
response
patients.
this
diffrently
You
time.
that
pregnant
serious
in
which
since
from
was
case
use
simply
to
of
around
use
simply
to
--
Terms
use
to
it
its
Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no
representations regarding the individual suitability of the
information contained in any document read or advice or
recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email
postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use
remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its
individual members be liable for any direct, consequential,
incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and
howsoever caused.
change your setting at http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/minutus to
receive a single daily digest.
Service.
ATTENTION PLEASE:

The Minutus Group is established purely for the promotion of Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no representations regarding the individual suitability of the information contained in any document read or advice or recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its individual members be liable for any direct, consequential, incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and howsoever caused.

****
ATTENTION PLEASE!!

If you do not wish to receive individual emails, you can simply change your setting at http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/minutus to receive a single daily digest.
---------------------------------
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To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/minutus/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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