Minutus

Hi Vera

If by PLACEBO you mean Sac Lac, then Sacchrum Lactis is mentioned in J H
Clarke's Dictionary

Soroush
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:03:40 -0800 (PST)
From: VR VR
Subject: provings

Hi all,
Has anyone ever done a homeopathic proving using placebo? Just curious.
Vera
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Soroush,
Thanks for your answer. I assume the Sac Lac in Clarke is potentised. I mean a non-potentised placebo - much in the way that in double blind trials a control group is given a placebo. I'm referring to having people go through the proving process on a substance that is not a potentised homeopathic remedy, in order to highlight the nature of the proving process and its findings.
It's a risky thing to do - if a placebo proving brings up symptoms could define a "remedy picture" that would raise a lot of questions. On the other hand, if it clearly has no "remedy picture" that may strengthen the findings of true provings. On the third hand.... such a proving could open up various cans of worms...
I'm curious - but they say curiosity curdled the lac felinum,
Regards,
Vera

Finrod wrote:
Hi Vera

If by PLACEBO you mean Sac Lac, then Sacchrum Lactis is mentioned in J H
Clarke's Dictionary

Soroush
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:03:40 -0800 (PST)
From: VR VR
Subject: provings

Hi all,

Has anyone ever done a homeopathic proving using placebo? Just curious.

Vera
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Vera,
Of course there were homoeopathic provings done with placebo as well,
e.g. in Bernd Schuster's proving of Bamboo, there were 3 experimental
stages.
In stage 1 , all provers got a 'verum'. In stage 2 or 3 some got 'verum'
some placebo, but of course they didn't know if they received a verum
(potencies proved were Q3, 6C and 30C) or a placebo.

So everyone started with verum, and afterwards followed either with
placebo or verum - so it wasn't clear if symtpms REALLY appeared und the
placebo effect.

In his Cola proving he started with a 'empty-remedy-stage'
(i.e.non-medicated remedies), but afterwards he wrote that these
(non-medicated) remedies couldn't even be protected by being enrolled in
aluminium foil from being impregnated with tthe energy of the Cola
remedies. So for him there was really the question if a placebo could be
given during a proving.

Best,

Gaby

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gaby Rottler
Germany
rottler@curantur.de

http://www.curantur.de
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Gaby,
I've heard of placebo being given alongside remedies in provings - I've also seen reports of at least one research trial on PMS where placebo was given to some groups and different remedies to others, I assume this is standard practice. I'm curious about a proving where placebo was the focus, not the control, whether a remedy picture would emerge from such a process or not, and what implications that would have for the giving of placebo.
thanks,
Vera

Gaby Rottler wrote:
Hi Vera,
Of course there were homoeopathic provings done with placebo as well,
e.g. in Bernd Schuster's proving of Bamboo, there were 3 experimental
stages.
In stage 1 , all provers got a 'verum'. In stage 2 or 3 some got 'verum'
some placebo, but of course they didn't know if they received a verum
(potencies proved were Q3, 6C and 30C) or a placebo.

So everyone started with verum, and afterwards followed either with
placebo or verum - so it wasn't clear if symtpms REALLY appeared und the
placebo effect.

In his Cola proving he started with a 'empty-remedy-stage'
(i.e.non-medicated remedies), but afterwards he wrote that these
(non-medicated) remedies couldn't even be protected by being enrolled in
aluminium foil from being impregnated with tthe energy of the Cola
remedies. So for him there was really the question if a placebo could be
given during a proving.

Best,

Gaby

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gaby Rottler
Germany
rottler@curantur.de

http://www.curantur.de
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clinical Guidance for Homeopaths and Students of Homeopathy!
http://www.shahrdarhost.net/Clinical%20Guidance.htm
ATTENTION PLEASE:

The Minutus Group is established purely for the promotion of Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no representations regarding the individual suitability of the information contained in any document read or advice or recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its individual members be liable for any direct, consequential, incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and howsoever caused.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So when some provers are given "placebo", how many wind up displaying
symptoms of milk sugar? Or, if the blanks are sucrose, sac.
officinale?

In my venus proving the placebo prover came up with strong symptoms,
but clearly, IMHO, not of the remedy. It looks like it was her stuff
coming up from the process of having an initial case taking and a
pill. I later gave her the real remedy and her symptoms were of the
proving. I'll see if I can gather the info for you to see.

In the alabaster proving we decided not to bother with a placebo.

I've thought about doing a total placebo proving, more for the fun of
see ing what came up, but I'd guess it wouldn't be more than the
provers own stuff.

So what about the provings with supposed symptoms coming up in the
placebo provers? I summise such provings weren't rigorous enough in
their design/intent.... ?

Chris

Should only happen if the sac lac etc was potentised.

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Robert & Shannon Nelson
wrote:

At 5:55 AM -0800 2/28/05, VR VR wrote:
Get vol. 2 of Herscu's book on provings and read it. Lots of info.
You will ALWAYS get symptoms, especially from mentally susceptible
people. It is, therefore to carefully look at the symptoms that come
up and take away all those that DO NOT belong to the remedy.
If you took NOTHING and then took notes about how you did all day, I
bet you'd come up with a bunch of symptoms-- all YOU none of the
remedy.
Herscu's book lays out the history of provings and problems with them
better than anything else I've read.

JW

What I'm curious to see is not so much whether provers of placebo will come up with symptoms - people are suggestible, and if someone thinks they are taking a remedy they will definitely come up with something. However, a central element of proving is not just symptoms from individual provers, but whether several provers experience similar symptoms - that way drawing a remedy picture based on the group proving, not the individual prover.
Would a pure placebo proving bring up the same symptoms in several people? If that happens, you can't say it's each person's individual stuff, there's something else going on.
Vera

Chris Wilkinson wrote:

In my venus proving the placebo prover came up with strong symptoms,
but clearly, IMHO, not of the remedy. It looks like it was her stuff
coming up from the process of having an initial case taking and a
pill. I later gave her the real remedy and her symptoms were of the
proving. I'll see if I can gather the info for you to see.

In the alabaster proving we decided not to bother with a placebo.

I've thought about doing a total placebo proving, more for the fun of
see ing what came up, but I'd guess it wouldn't be more than the
provers own stuff.

So what about the provings with supposed symptoms coming up in the
placebo provers? I summise such provings weren't rigorous enough in
their design/intent.... ?

Chris
Clinical Guidance for Homeopaths and Students of Homeopathy!
http://www.shahrdarhost.net/Clinical%20Guidance.htm
ATTENTION PLEASE:

The Minutus Group is established purely for the promotion of Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no representations regarding the individual suitability of the information contained in any document read or advice or recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its individual members be liable for any direct, consequential, incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and howsoever caused.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, I'll check it out.
Vera

Julian Winston wrote:
At 5:55 AM -0800 2/28/05, VR VR wrote:
Get vol. 2 of Herscu's book on provings and read it. Lots of info.
You will ALWAYS get symptoms, especially from mentally susceptible
people. It is, therefore to carefully look at the symptoms that come
up and take away all those that DO NOT belong to the remedy.
If you took NOTHING and then took notes about how you did all day, I
bet you'd come up with a bunch of symptoms-- all YOU none of the
remedy.
Herscu's book lays out the history of provings and problems with them
better than anything else I've read.

JW
Clinical Guidance for Homeopaths and Students of Homeopathy!
http://www.shahrdarhost.net/Clinical%20Guidance.htm
ATTENTION PLEASE:

The Minutus Group is established purely for the promotion of Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no representations regarding the individual suitability of the information contained in any document read or advice or recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its individual members be liable for any direct, consequential, incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and howsoever caused.

****
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