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Minutus • Qualification
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Qualification

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:20 pm
by Jean Doherty
From friend

Er,
did you know that you can delete all other recipients' addresses as
you send off each email on your list? Wish I had known how to do this.
Sorry
I think Dr Rozencwajg proved his point and his thinking shows a greater
depth of understanding than mine.
It is possible Magn Mur might help but probably needs support,
Andy also has an enviable depth of understanding, Jean
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Qualification

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:27 pm
by andyh
On Monday, October 18, 2004, at 03:21 AM, JeanW Doherty wrote:
((( Very kind, Jean, but I am but a beginner at diagnosis and TCM.
Quiz good stimulus. As recall you know quite a bit of diag, so you
and Dr. J are the enviables among others though we should all take it
easy (envy stresses the gall bladder :) :-)

All regards,
Andy
PS--Another thought (wish I had Bates here to consult) is to palpate in
the abdominal to look for tenderness at site of each organ to attempt
to get subjective info (I suspect this might be what Dr. J wants us to
learn...)

PPS--another wild card for elimination in the Dr. J's diagnostics
course quiz case is Sjogrens as Rosemary implied (autoimmune disease);
prominent in women after childbearing age w/key sx dry eyes (which
indicates liver involvement). However, would likely see connective
tissue or joint disease as concomitant, which is not in this case that
we know of...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Qualification

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:02 am
by Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
Well as usual Julian nailed it on the head, but he cheated as I have used that same case as an illustration during this year's conference in NZ........... :-))

The question was "What do you do?", right.............

First you think differential diagnosis of "Abdominal pain, in elderly patient, with emaciation, with dry eyes"............algorythm......
As soon as a list of symptoms is presented, a list of possible pathologies MUST flash in front of your eyes; you all wrote some of them, drowned in an ocean of rubrics and remedies that should have come a lot later if at all:
Various tumours, ulcers, and gall bladder pathologies are the obvious ones but they have been excluded by the TOTALLY USELESS tests performed by GPs and specialists.

The only diagnosis that holds water, and is well described in every textbook, is intestinal claudication, where the superior mesenteric artery is partially occluded; as soon as some food reaches any part of the digestive system, it stimulates it, creates contractions and secretions, but they cannot be sustained due to the lack of blood supply, hence the PAIN (like angina pectoris or intermittent claudication, but in the gut); this lack of blood supply prevents also the proper absorptive function of the gut, hence the increased malnutrition on top of not eating due to the pain, and the dry eyes because of lack of resorption of the fat soluble Vitamin A.
Check your textbooks, it is frequent, it is classical, it is not a weird diagnosis where you have to be a "Sherlock Holmes" to find a rare gem...........it is really very common......and missed............

Now to CONFIRM your diagnosis, you EXAMINE the patient.

I put my had on her epigastrium, felt a thrill (murmur), synchronous with the pulse; no masses. Hand on the chest, no thrill; hand on the lower abdomen, no thrill.
Then auscultation: stethoscope on the epigastrium, rude 4/6 systolic murmur, indicating a tight arterial stenosis somewhere; steth on the chest, no murmur, it is not transmitted from the heart; steth on the lower abdomen, no murmur, it is not transmitted from the iliac or femoral arteries; steth on the back, no murmur, it is not coming from the renal arteries.

So the CLINICAL DIAGNOSIS, the one that interests us, is intestinal claudication, intestinal ischemia caused by a stenosis (narrowing) of the superior mesenteric artery.
Period.

The only test to CONFIRM this is a selective angiography.

So I phoned the GP, tried to be polite and not yell at him, sent the patient back; an angiogram was done the next week, confirmed the diagnosis, the stenosis was opened through balloon angioplasty and stent, end of the problem.
Patient came back for a courtesy visit, being able to eat, eyes less dry, no pain, gaining weight and able to go back to her previous life style, did not want any further treatment.

Why do I insist here?
Intestinal arteries are terminal (see anatomy course), meaning that they do not link/anastomose with others, and once they are completely blocked, you get gangrene of the bowel, which often ends in death despite surgery, where you remove almost all of the small intestine.

Say what you want, but no amount or quality of homeopathy can take care of this purely mechanical problem.

Conclusion:

1. even if the patient has been checked by MDs, do not trust their judgement: you just got one example, I have quite a few other horror stories; they did all the modern tests, but when I asked the patient when was the last time someone palpate her abdomen, that was 12 months earlier, and NOBODY auscultated her abdomen, which is basic diagnostic skill.

2. therefore, you need to know pathology and diagnosis for cases like that and for the ability to say: "this is not for me", but at the same time the ability to send to the proper therapist with clear guidelines and not, like her GP did to me, "well, I do not know what is wrong with you and how to deal with you, go see Joe the Quack, he will know" (his own real words, that has become my nickname in the conventional local world, but this case has also established trusting relationships with GPs......they chat between them too......)

3. as JW wrote, know what has to be treated right now; constitutions, miasms, etc, are very nice but maybe not right now..............you need a POSITIVE diagnosis, and only when everything has been eliminated (OK not in each and every case) can you talk functional, emotional, spiritual, etc,....

Basic, simple, classical knowledge and diagnostic skills, nothing sophisticated, nothing out of the common, it is all in the books, as I wrote the other day, gathering dust..............

My apologies if I come through as ranting, but this case and many others make me absolutely furious, raging at what I call malpractice.

Imagine what would have happened had this patient died under my "purely" homeopathic care: you can see the headline: "Careless homeopath kills a patient!!" and the like...........
Saying that "they" missed the diagnosis too would not help; taking on the care of the patient, you take the responsibility over; and as you know, we often come as the last resort.

So for the sake of our patients, we MUST be not only better, but the best.

This concludes my preaching for today.......... :-))

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"

Re: Qualification

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:13 am
by andyh
On Monday, October 18, 2004, at 04:00 PM, Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
wrote:
((( Dear Dr. J,
I feel fortunate for this masterful demonstration (and motivating
highlight of the depth of my ignorance); and such a well written "case
in point" teaching. This gem will stay with me for the duration.

Sincerely,
Andy

Re: Qualification

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:32 am
by Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
Thanks Andy, but really there was nothing really brilliant about this case; this is the way I have been trained and there are many like me.
Plain good old medicine, nothing else, believe me.

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"

Re: Qualification

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:02 pm
by Shannon Nelson
What a marvellous instructive and cautionary tale!
Anyone -- is this sort of material being taught *anywhere* to homeopaths?
If not, it sounds like we need to set up a hue-and-cry to start it
happening...

Complicating the picture, tho... It's odd, but at least here in the US (is
it elsewhere?) we've gotten so funny over touching/being touched, even by
doctors! I think it could be overcome...

I remember that Bates' book is one we were required to buy, so I suppose we
even used it a bit, but it all flew by pretty fast, and I haven't heard any
of it mentioned since! (Er, except probably in some of those rubrics whose
meanings escape me.) But I see I need to move it back toward the top of my
"chew on and gag over" list (ha-ha)... (weak smile)

I love that quote, "well, I do not know what is wrong with you and how to
deal with you, go see Joe the Quack, he will know"! How funny!

Dr. R -- this is fascinating, please give us another???
Shannon
on 10/18/04 6:00 PM, Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD. at jroz@ihug.co.nz wrote:

Re: Qualification

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:31 pm
by J Lucas
I admit to not following all of this discussion but I am curious as to why
you say this...

Best wishes, Joy

www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
on 10/18/04 6:00 PM, Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD. at jroz@ihug.co.nz wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Qualification

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 12:18 am
by Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
Because as it is a mechanical obstruction that threatens the vitality of the gut, hence the life of the patient, there is no time left to allow any type of treatment that would remove that obstruction fast.

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"

Re: Qualification

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 12:41 am
by Rosemary C Hyde PhD
I agree with Shannon -- this has been a very useful example of the power of skilled physical examination -- and a cautionary tale of when to insist that the patient go back to medical doctors and insist that they HAVE to find the problem because it will probably require surgical intervention.

Interestingly, it was also synchronistically useful. I got a phone call this morning from a prospective new patient with a tale eerily similar to the one Dr R presented. In addition to the severe pain after eating (hers is two hours after, like clockwork, so if she has an arterial occlusion, it's undoubtedly in a different place than Dr R's patient), she has lost over 20% of her total weight since she suddenly became ill four months ago. She's had every test and type of scan that would identify problems with her kidneys, liver, gall bladder, pancreas, and GI system -- all perfectly normal. There have also been, apparently, two physicians who have physically examined her abdomen, but focusing on bowel sounds, which are also normal. She's in severe pain after eating, is undoubtedly malnourished at this point, because she's eaten virtually nothing since the pain started one night at work, last July, has seen 3 ER specialists, a gastro enterologist, an OB-GYN, and her own internist, and they've all thrown up their hands and said "everything's normal."

But obviously it isn't -- the patient is in big trouble. She's 30 years old, very small, and now weighs less than 80 pounds. My partner (an old-time internist not practicing medicine here in California but still licensed in New York, who consults for me on puzzling patient situations, thank God) agreed that the situation sounds extremely similar to the one Dr R presented, and said the patient should request an arterial angiogram and be seen by an abdominal surgeon, ASAP, and I passed that suggestion along to the woman. The patient is medically knowledgeable -- a registered nurse with an advanced graduate degree in nursing, who works in a hospital as a nurse. So she should be able to convince the physicians to pursue the situation till they find an answer. We'll see what happens next.

Unfortunately, although this patient is relatively well covered insurance-wise (so many patients here have no health care coverage at all, and they can't afford to seek any kind of medical care -- this health care system really stinks, worse and worse!), her insurance won't permit her to seek help at the university medical school near where she lives -- which is where she's most likely to find someone skilled enough to diagnose what's going on.

In any case, I thank you very much , Dr. R, for presenting this case, because, whatever this patient's diagnosis turns out to be, the case heightened my awareness of potential surgical emergencies and how they might present, and I suspect this patent will benefit as a result.

Rosemary
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Qualification

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:33 am
by J Lucas
So Homeopathy cannot work quickly, instantaneously, in emergency
situations?? Obviously she was not my client but I beg to differ. And I
think, as far as instruction goes, that once diagnosis is correct, and the
case properly taken and a remedy decided, it could be given to the client
there and then with enough time to wait for a reaction as in many emergency
acutes. If nothing, then other action has to be taken. You yourself write
about a closed mind.

Best, Joy

www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
on 19/10/04 11:12 pm, Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD. at jroz@ihug.co.nz wrote:

Because as it is a mechanical obstruction that threatens the vitality of the
gut, hence the life of the patient, there is no time left to allow any type
of treatment that would remove that obstruction fast.

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"