Minutus

Dear Wendy

I do not approve of drugs (recreational or otherwise) in any shape or form
other than for medicinal use under the direction of a homeopath or doctor.

The problem with pot is that it is retained by the fatty tissues of the body
and stays there for a long time. So the influence of the quantities left in
the tissue is long term. (How many road accidents are caused by pot smokers
driving while high or while their concept time/distance and velocity is
distorted?)

In most cases most of the alcohol is flushed out of the body fairly quickly
but pot stays there.

(In some cultures it is written that if pot is smoked in a house, the roof
should be knocked out - i.e. made uninhabitable!)

Both of these substances are unsafe for consumption in any case.

How does one define addiction? That is a point itself.
Most addicts refuse to agree that they are addicted - "I can give it up
tomorrow if I wanted to" is commonly heard.

I am yet to find any one who has really found the 'true path' through
smoking pot or opium etc. The result is sadly nothing but DELUSION.
And alcohol is regarded as the 'mother of all sins' so it can hardly be a
mechanism for getting you to be closer to God.
Referring even to the old testament, there is an injunction not to be under
the influence of alcohol in the sight of the Lord.

In terms of the drinker or the smoker being in control, unless we are
talking small quantities, then there is an immediate loss of control whilst
under the influence. Granted that some people use it long term in small
quantities and there are no apparent problems, but how many of the addicts
of today started with just one drink or one joint?

Or one has heard someone in a drunk state blaming that it was just the last
drink that did it! )

However, I take on board your view of susceptibility. This need if not
through boredom, may be linked with something lacking in one's life.

Lastly Hn in aph 9 did not say we needed any of these substances to achieve
our highest states - just the good old Similimum.

Best regards
Soroush

Hi Soroush
If you study the use of hallucinogenic and alcoholic substances by shamanic
traditions you'll find a different story. The idea that the result is
nothing but delusion and that alcohol is the mother of all sins arises from
the fact that because these substances provide close substitution, they
present many hazards in their use, hence many cultures have demonised them
and encouraged their people to avoid them altogether. But it's important to
stress that not all cultures have done so, and to look at the other side of
the coin too. And the spiritual path followed in shamanic tradition is
certainly no less evolved and no less valid than that offered by any of the
major world religions.

Understand that I'm not putting an argument "for" drugs here. I can readily
understand you own personal viewpoint, and sympathise with it to some
degree. However, like all things on this earth, drugs have both a negative
aspect and a positive one. Used as a tool, as only part of a process, and
with proper training by cultures that are used to using them in this manner,
they are not so hazardous or harmful.

under

Yet alcohol is representative of the blood of Christ at Holy Communion in
Christian tradition.

whilst

Every addict starts with just one drink or joint in that they all have to
start somewhere! But not everyone who takes just one drink or joint will end
up an addict (and I rather think the latter are in the majority). This is a
common misconception used in anti-drugs propaganda and it simply is not
true. Neither is it true that smoking pot leads inexorably on to harder
drugs. Anyone who has worked extensively with drugs and youth culture and
who has worked from the perspective of developing an intimate
*understanding* of it will confirm that for you. They will also confirm that
the drugs of themselves are not the problem, even though their use can
result in offending behaviour. (This is why several senior ranking police
officers in the UK have called for legalisation.) Their use is merely a
symptom of much deeper and wider-ranging social and societal problems that
go way beyond "boredom". Demonising the drugs - and hence their users -
effectively allows society to ignore the problems it should be addressing.

And yes, there is immediate loss of control, but by no means ALL control.
Now don't mistake this for one moment as me condoning driving while
intoxicated or anything of that nature. I don't. But I do think it's very
important to actually understand the nature of the beast rather than simply
to view it from the outside and brand it as evil. IMO it needs to be viewed
*without prejudice* either for or against. Your viewpoint is rather
one-sided.

achieve

Absolutely !! I didn't say that we *needed* these substances to achieve
the higher purposes of our existence either. I merely said that to state
that pot or alcohol takes over the lives of the people who use them is
untrue, and that there are examples of their positive use.

Regards
Wendy

I accept that use and addiction are separate issues, but it is the
availability and use of drugs together with other factors that eventually
leads to addiction. Peer pressure, family circumstance and habits and
advertising are just a few.

I do not have any close encounters with any of the Shamonic traditions so I
do not have any basis to comment from personal experience of it. However,
the little I have seen and heard on TV does not fill me with confidence of
the real spiritual attainment. I wonder how much of is just showmanship or
deluded drug influence.

Did I get it right that you think that some one who is under the influence
of any of these drugs is going to perform mental tasks better than when they
are were not? (excluding those who are addicted and are suffering withdrawal
symptoms).

I agree with you that all substances have their uses, but I tend to feel
that is not true in their abuse. I mean when prepared homeopathically they
have medicinal properties, but in their crude form they are destructive.

Regarding the use of wine as 'blood of Christ' in the Christian traditions,
I am afraid that if you look deeply in to it, you will find that there is no
basis for it in fact. It comes from the part of bible where it has been
affected by man's influence.
I cannot accept that when the Torah specifically states that one should not
be under the influence of alcohol in the sight of the Lord that Jesus would
make it consumption of wine part of a religious ceremony. Interestingly
enough, the blessed wine is still intoxicating! [This aspect is sadly one of
a list of things where Christian doctrine breaks away from the injunctions
in the Old Testament. The second commandment - re graven images is another
and then there is the eating of the flesh of the swine and not circumcising
males are a few other ones that immediately come to mind].

The reason why some chief constable have opted for legalisation of drugs
(Pot) is a valid one. It fights crime and hurts the drug barons.
The power house of drug use are the addict pushers. They need to sell the
drugs themselves and also to make money to buy their own shots. So they are
expanding the market and also robbing people to feed their habit.
In Liverpool when they did an experiment and provided the addicts with the
heroin and syringes etc, the level of crime went down to 15% of its level
before the experiment. (Addicts had to register at the pharmacy so it was
know who was part of the scheme) When this was reported to the Home
Secretary, the idea was rejected.
The reason is that the Mafia must have its money and if HMG was to provide
clean and pure Heroin, where were the Mafia going to get their money? How
were they going to control the prostitutes? So the idea was rejected.

I think bitter personal experience of some dear friends and relatives has
made me prejudiced against the abuse of drugs, but I hope that if I have a
pt with the problem in front of me it does not come through. There must be
a deep reason for the addiction and the abuse - I can but sympathise.

In terms of loss of control, how many people do things under the influence
of alcohol especially that when they are sober they regret. So as I have
seen in some social gatherings, one drinks leads to another and then
eventually one thing leads to another and as a result we have another
upsetting statistic sooner or later.

Sorry, but you have not managed to convince me that the use of any drugs
increases man's spirituality nor are they of any really positive benefit as
whole.

Thanks for put up with me.
Soroush

on 5/10/01 7:35 pm, Wendy Howard at wendy@rachan.worldonline.co.uk wrote:

Hi, as an interjection........... where does television and religion and
many other 'obsessive' aspects of society fit into the drug, addiction,
oppression, distraction element of the running of our daily lives????? In
simple terms I am offering that any 'substance' that takes us away from
objectivity leads us into delusion. But where does delusion end and reality
begin or the other way round. If choice is an issue then what people choose
to do is a truth. Morality should not be a guide. A wonderfully endless
discussion. Regards, Joy Lucas

Hi Soroush

I think you've missed my point again. It is a very emotive issue, but please
try to understand what I was saying. I have not been defending the use of
drugs and alcohol!! You made a statement that pot takes over the lives of
people who smoke it. I acknowledged that this happens to some, but certainly
*not all* users. All I was objecting to there was the blanket statement. Pot
does not take over the lives of everyone who smokes it. Simple fact.

I also pointed out that there are cultures which make use of drugs and
alcohol in a positive manner. There are - whether you approve of them or
not, or doubt their spiritual attainment or not. Again, simple fact.

I wasn't trying to change your opinion in the least - only to point out that
you were factually incorrect, and that in discussing matters of this nature
in a therapeutic setting, it's sometimes preferable to leave our opinions at
the door and approach the subject in a neutral manner.

Regards
Wendy

OKay - I admit that what I said was perhaps too general.

But I have seen the pot smoking pts.
They go and on and on (and no you cannot take loquacity as a rubric for
them, because it is the pot talking and not them) - they don't know where
they are coming from or going to. I was not talking about the occasional
pot smoker or drinker who are 'off normal' while the drug's influence lasts.

I did not say that other cultures did not use them in an attempt to 'attain'
spiritual attainment - what I doubt is whether what they think they have
attained is really spirituality.

And I did mention that despite my own strong views on the abuse of
substances, I would be there for my patient and will do my best in a
hopefully unprejudiced manner to find out why the substance abuse is going
on.

One of my senior colleagues Maggie presented a case at the SoH conference in
1998. It was an extremely moving case. At the end most of people present
had tears in their eyes!
It showed her resolve to get to the bottom of the case and over many months
she discovered that the 28 yr old man had been sexually abused by one of
their neighbours at age 13. He had not told anyone until the time he told
Maggie, but his life had been literally destroyed by that event. Once the
matter came into the open and he rcvd his similimum he managed to get back
to his family and accept their love for what it was. At the time of
presentation he had been 'clean' for some time.

So as IsALi correctly states, we have to get to the bottom of the matter (as
in all other cases). The only problem is that with your patient under the
influence of the substance, you have a hell of task.

Thank you all for your help and guidance. I much appreciate your comments.

Much respect to you all.
Soroush